Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: indysmith on June 19, 2009, 11:47:44 PM
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For my final year project at uni next year, I'm building a JTM45 over the summer (although I expect it'll take me about 3 days in real life), and over the next academic year I'll be investigating into the best ways of bringing it down to volume levels suitable for the studio and/or at home, whilst retaining as much of the original tone as possible.
I'm looking at the Ceriatone website for a JTM45 kit, and I'm not understanding it at all.
http://www.ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJTM45/BSJTM45Kits.htm
On this page, is the bottom option what I need? It says "full working chassis"... Does that mean it's pre-built? I don't want it pre-built, lol. I simply want all of the components (incl. valves and transformers), the board, chassis with hardware, and a head cabinet for it.
How much is this all gonna cost me?
If anyone knows of any other better '45 kits, or cheaper, more student-friendly options please let me know!
Thanks!
Also, has anybody here dealt with Ceriatone before? What are they like to deal with, and how is the quality of the amps?
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Nik at Ceriatone will build the amp if you want but if you get the kit the components will all be mounted to the main board, you just need to connect the wires (including all the ones to the valve sockets, pots, transformers, etc). I have 2 and they are great amps and are very good quality. I got the assembled ones, but have been thinking of getting another as a kit. If you want to assemble it, you need Package 2. If you want a full kit of parts look at Weber or Torres.
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The Ceriatone amps that I've played @ Phil's (LOUDLY) will definitely scratch the vintage amp itch of most!
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Nik at Ceriatone is a top bloke, and very easy to deal with. THey usually don't sell completely un-assembled kits, but I'm sure Nik would be more than happy to sell you one if you ask. Email him at nik@ceriatone.com . He usually replies within 24 hours.
I have owned 3 Ceriatone amps. All have been of a very good quality. My perception is that they are definately a step above the Weber kits, but not quite up to the vintage accuracy of a Metroamp kit.
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I have a ceriatone Bassman that Martin built for me & I've got to say the quality is amazing, not only with Martin's work, bu the beauty of the kits as well. Already I'm jones-ing for another one (their matchless lightning)!
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I have owned 3 Ceriatone amps. All have been of a very good quality. My perception is that they are definately a step above the Weber kits, but not quite up to the vintage accuracy of a Metroamp kit.
Vintage accuracy in looks? I agree, Metroamp kits have the 'look'.
With regard to tone, there won't be a lot (if anything) in it. And as Marshall changed specs like their underpants back in the sixties, there is no one reference 'tone' anyway!
The Ceriatone stuff is great Indy, drop Nik an email and fill your boots :D
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Thanks guys, I'll email Nik now. TBH it's looking to be a lot more expensive than I'd hoped; I may have to downsize my project to an 18W. :|
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i have vague future plans in the future to own a ceriatone 18w, TMB with cascade mod.
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I fancy building the 18w and the jtm50...by the way is that your clips on the 45 Hamfist
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i have vague future plans in the future to own a ceriatone 18w, TMB with cascade mod.
If you get the 18 go for the TMB and EF86 - that is the preamp I have on my JTM45 and when you jumper them they have a great rock sound, clarity with breakup when you want it.
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I fancy building the 18w and the jtm50...by the way is that your clips on the 45 Hamfist
Yes, there's a couple of my JTM45 clips on the Ceriatone site.
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They make a 'wreck clone that I've been looking at ...
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Man I really want one of these. what do you guys think. Is this option better than buying something that might cost a few hundred dollars-pounds more? Or is this something that people who want to build entry level amps do. Is this Professional stuff to state my point? Good for gigging and such
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I would probably buy a totally assembled one if that is an option
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Man I really want one of these. what do you guys think. Is this option better than buying something that might cost a few hundred dollars-pounds more? Or is this something that people who want to build entry level amps do. Is this Professional stuff to state my point? Good for gigging and such
Yes, absolutely. A fully built Ceriatone amp, will be a nicely constructed, beautifully hand-wired, "professional" standard amp. The quality of components and transformers etc is easily up you a standard Marshall/Fender tube amp. But, being hand-wired, the amp will be much easier to mod or repair in the future.
Being Ceriatone, you can also basically choose your circuit and get Nik to customise it with all sorts of extras too (like FX loops, PPIMV etc). for minimal extra money.
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Is there anything similar to Ceriatone in the UK at all? As I don't think they ship to the UK do they?
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They do ship to the UK, yep. Hamfist has bought one or two direct from them.
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They do ship to the UK, yep. Hamfist has bought one or two direct from them.
Correct, and they pack them very safely.
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Martin Martamp/MJW does the ceriatone amps in the uk
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Score once again you guys have me convinced I think I am going to go for a 50 watt plexi style amp. Now I need to figure out how to sell my current rig and get the new one. Probably take me a few months. Out of curiosity. What is the waiting time usually? Thanks to all Hamfist especially.
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I'd guess on around a month from order to delivery....
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I really wish Nik would give the masses a Supro Thunderbolt clone or similar.
An amp like that would pretty much broadcast coolness to anyone in hearing range.
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I'd guess on around a month from order to delivery....
Yes, it's in the region of about a month. It does depend on the model though. My understanding is that at Ceriatone, each model has it's own particular employee building it. So if that model has more orders, the waiting list for that one gets longer. If you're ordering a model which is not particularly popular, you might get it sooner.
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I really wish Nik would give the masses a Supro Thunderbolt clone or similar.
An amp like that would pretty much broadcast coolness to anyone in hearing range.
+1
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Is there anything similar to Ceriatone in the UK at all? As I don't think they ship to the UK do they?
I'm going to get an Amp Maker PP-18 (Marshall 18W Lite). They're cheap, look like they're good quality, and in the UK.
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I'd guess on around a month from order to delivery....
Yes, it's in the region of about a month. It does depend on the model though. My understanding is that at Ceriatone, each model has it's own particular employee building it. So if that model has more orders, the waiting list for that one gets longer. If you're ordering a model which is not particularly popular, you might get it sooner.
Last question can he make dual (Clean-Dirty) channel amps? And footswitches
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I'd guess on around a month from order to delivery....
Yes, it's in the region of about a month. It does depend on the model though. My understanding is that at Ceriatone, each model has it's own particular employee building it. So if that model has more orders, the waiting list for that one gets longer. If you're ordering a model which is not particularly popular, you might get it sooner.
Last question can he make dual (Clean-Dirty) channel amps? And footswitches
That I don't know. Just email Nik with any questions like that and he'll answer pretty quickly.
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Is there anything similar to Ceriatone in the UK at all? As I don't think they ship to the UK do they?
I'm going to get an Amp Maker PP-18 (Marshall 18W Lite). They're cheap, look like they're good quality, and in the UK.
I'm getting tempted by one of these :o (Mr "I'm-happy-with-modellors-my-valve-amp-is-too-much-hassle" :roll:)
I'll have to stop reading these amp threads :lol:
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I really wish Nik would give the masses a Supro Thunderbolt clone or similar.
An amp like that would pretty much broadcast coolness to anyone in hearing range.
+1
That an an early (pre-master volume) silverface Fender Super Reverb.
That would be cool.
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Is there anything similar to Ceriatone in the UK at all? As I don't think they ship to the UK do they?
I'm going to get an Amp Maker PP-18 (Marshall 18W Lite). They're cheap, look like they're good quality, and in the UK.
tell us how this goes his kits look good
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He has some mods options like an
1) FX Loop Layout
1) Half Power Layout
2) Interrupt Style Loop
JCM 800 2204 HW
What do you guys think? No Idea what the FX would do for me or what I might need it for. The half watt might be good for the neighbors. Would be a shame if it messed with the tone though.
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He has some mods options like an
1) FX Loop Layout
1) Half Power Layout
2) Interrupt Style Loop
JCM 800 2204 HW
What do you guys think? No Idea what the FX would do for me or what I might need it for. The half watt might be good for the neighbors. Would be a shame if it messed with the tone though.
I have had that very amp from Ceriatone, and I'd say it was the best of the 3 I had from them (JTM45, Plexi 50 and 2204). I've had an original Marshall 2204 too, and other clones, and the Ceriatone was as good or better than them all.
Defo get the FX loop and a PPIMV (which will help you get a fuller tone and slightly more gain). Make sure it will be the Type 2 MV, as shown on the mods section of their site, as this is a GREAT MV.
I have heard that the half power switch does affect tone (although did not have this extra myself), but still might be a useful thing to have, if the extra cost is minimal. I have never heard a glowing report of any half power switch (which is basically a pentode to triode switch) with EL34's working well. Seems to work really well with EL84's but not EL34's.
Great choice of amp BTW !!
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Thanks Ham you da man. I will get that. I also was looking at something called the rocca mod. Apparently it gives you loads of gain. For everything thanks
Mike
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Thanks Ham you da man. I will get that. I also was looking at something called the rocca mod. Apparently it gives you loads of gain. For everything thanks
Mike
I've done the Rocca mod on a 2204 circuit. Certainly gives a lot of gain. To be honest, i preferred the 2204 plus a pedal for more gain. The standard 2204 is waaaaaay more versatile too. With the Rocca mod, it will not clean up at all, just saturation all the way. The tone controls work ina very different way in the circuit too. Didn't really work for me.
If you can get it from Ceriatone with a switchable Rocca mod (which I doubt) , then that would be worthwhile, but otherwise I'd give it a miss really. If you're wanting that sort of gain, then a 2204 is probably the wrong amp for you.
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Yea thanks Since my last post I did some research on the rocca and it does not seem to be what I want. There is this guy here on youtube who claims to have changed the gainstage a tad tell me what you think Ham. It sounds alright for youtube audio quality. He also mentions in one of his posts about getting a different Fx loop kit an iron horse or something like that because it helps the signal. I guess I messed around with my current setup so much that I just want to get everything from the start if possible.
Anyway thanks for answering so many questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDccdQLkhvU&feature=related
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Yea thanks Since my last post I did some research on the rocca and it does not seem to be what I want. There is this guy here on youtube who claims to have changed the gainstage a tad tell me what you think Ham. It sounds alright for youtube audio quality. He also mentions in one of his posts about getting a different Fx loop kit an iron horse or something like that because it helps the signal. I guess I messed around with my current setup so much that I just want to get everything from the start if possible.
Anyway thanks for answering so many questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDccdQLkhvU&feature=related
The tone sounds OK in that clip, but the sound quality is truly appalling, as usual for YT, so it's hard to be sure.
It certainly is possible to tweak the 2204 circuit to sound much fatter at lower volumes. However, if you do that, then it will sound too thick and muffled at higher volumes. So you have to choose how you want to set it up .... for medium/high volumes or low/medium volumes.
I partially disagree that a tube screamer is the wrong pedal for a Marshall. I think a TS is just superb for lead work. For rhythm, however, it is the wrong pedal, as you need much more of a full range boost to keep the clarity in chords.
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hamfist, do you still own all 3 Ceriatones?
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hamfist, do you still own all 3 Ceriatones?
Nope, all passed on to further loving owners.
THe only tube amps I have now are old Selmers which I gut and rebuild myself.
It got to the point where I couldn't afford the amp addiction I was developing, so I learnt to DIY it !
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hamfist, do you still own all 3 Ceriatones?
Nope, all passed on to further loving owners.
THe only tube amps I have now are old Selmers which I gut and rebuild myself.
It hot to the point where I couldn't afford the amp addiction I was developing, so I learnt to DIY it !
This is much like how/why I learned to build guitars. I may expand my construction to a nice amp or two, but my neighbors would probably prefer that I not.
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Is Kit 4 for the Ceriatone jcm 2204 good to go without the case? I saw some cases for amp heads or cabinets whatever they are called, and they were cheaper than what he had. I mean could I plug and play it?
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It'll turn up as a working amp, if that's what you mean. I'd want it in a head box for shipping though, just for the extra protection.
Your choice at the end of the day!
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I got both my Ceriatones without the head cabinets and they were fine. They double box them with lots of bubble wrap and also have the valves individually wrapped (though on one I had it shipped without valves as I wanted to use my own choice).
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I was thinking that too but nik mentioned that he wrapps them super well. I figure It would be cheaper even for shipping. On a tight budget here. I just want to be able to plug and play when it arrives and either construct or have a head case built for me here for like 8 dollars.
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Fill your boots then!
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Ok last one here people are getting annoyed at me. But the half power option Do you guys think thats a good Idea?
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I've been looking at his 2555 clone, and although it's very tempting, I have to say with shipping and customs it would cost around 1000€, which is very close to a used original in good state (silver or slash model) which will go for 1200-1500.
The Marshall however comes
1. in a head shell,
2. with foot switchable channels (kind of) and
3. a seemably very well working FX loop.
For this particular model (2555) I don't think it's worthwhile at the moment.
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Ok last one here people are getting annoyed at me. But the half power option Do you guys think thats a good Idea?
It doesn't matter what we think, it's what YOU think that's important :D
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
email Ceriatone and ask, I'm sure they'll do an extra gain stage. the question is, what do you want to achieve by doing that? - what tones are you trying to get?
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
email Ceriatone and ask, I'm sure they'll do an extra gain stage. the question is, what do you want to achieve by doing that? - what tones are you trying to get?
Well looking at the Ceriatone amps look pretty awesome but not really for the heavier stuff, hence why I thought an extra gain stage. Don't EXACTLY know what it does but that's the only thing that I could think of get it heavier.
For like metal, but still some heavy rock maybe.
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
email Ceriatone and ask, I'm sure they'll do an extra gain stage. the question is, what do you want to achieve by doing that? - what tones are you trying to get?
Well looking at the Ceriatone amps look pretty awesome but not really for the heavier stuff, hence why I thought an extra gain stage. Don't EXACTLY know what it does but that's the only thing that I could think of get it heavier.
For like metal, but still some heavy rock maybe.
Wouldn't a 2204 or 2203 work like that if you use em with a tube screamer or BB preamp?
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
email Ceriatone and ask, I'm sure they'll do an extra gain stage. the question is, what do you want to achieve by doing that? - what tones are you trying to get?
Well looking at the Ceriatone amps look pretty awesome but not really for the heavier stuff, hence why I thought an extra gain stage. Don't EXACTLY know what it does but that's the only thing that I could think of get it heavier.
For like metal, but still some heavy rock maybe.
Wouldn't a 2204 or 2203 work like that if you use em with a tube screamer or BB preamp?
I kind of want to avoid pedals.
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Would it be possible to get an extra gain stage put on any of them? How much would it cost? Would this be worth the cost?
email Ceriatone and ask, I'm sure they'll do an extra gain stage. the question is, what do you want to achieve by doing that? - what tones are you trying to get?
Well looking at the Ceriatone amps look pretty awesome but not really for the heavier stuff, hence why I thought an extra gain stage. Don't EXACTLY know what it does but that's the only thing that I could think of get it heavier.
For like metal, but still some heavy rock maybe.
have you played a 2203/2204 Marshall before? - did it have enough gain? if not enough gain, was it just a tiny bit too clean or did you want to double the amount of gain? that amp can be tweaked for more gain very easily without resorting to adding an extra valve.
I'm not quite sure why you'd buy an amp like this and not buy an old Marshall though - if you have between £500 and £750 to spend you'll get the real deal which is better amp to start with than the Ceriatone.
Heres a 2204 (combo version) on ebay for £600.00 ... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Marshall-1978-JMP-50w-mk2-2x12-Combo-Amp_W0QQitemZ290343461470QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL?hash=item4399d1a25e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1062wt_1165
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so how knowledgeable do you have to be with amps/electronics to build one of these? do they come with full instructions or just a simple schematic or something?
i'm in a similar boat as the topic starter... i'm going to school to try to learn how to work with electronics, but as of right now, we haven't really gotten into anything like this yet. i'd like to try to learn how to build an amp.
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I'm not quite sure why you'd buy an amp like this and not buy an old Marshall though - if you have between £500 and £750 to spend you'll get the real deal which is better amp to start with than the Ceriatone.
Hmm, not sure about the word 'better' there HTH. It's all subjective. Some people will like the fact that a Ceriatone is a new amp, so for them it's 'better' than a messed about with 25 year old model...
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so how knowledgeable do you have to be with amps/electronics to build one of these? do they come with full instructions or just a simple schematic or something?
I believe you get a box of parts and a schematic. You need to know what you're doing I think.
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so how knowledgeable do you have to be with amps/electronics to build one of these? do they come with full instructions or just a simple schematic or something?
I believe you get a box of parts and a schematic. You need to know what you're doing I think.
hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
i'm sure i'm way off base here, hopefully not too far out.
by the end of this school year i'm hoping to know a decent amount about circuitry and electronics. so i think it should be something manageable.
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Martin at MJW can fix up a kit for you anyways.
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I think CJ is from the US Jonny.
Why don't you like the ideas of pedals? I really enjoy having my 2203 and two OD pedals set to slight boost.
MXR GT-OD is more compressed
Xotic RC booster very open and dynamic
Amp set to slight crunch.
Having the combination of any of those is great, although my amp being a bit buggered at the moment means both pedals on gets a tiny bit too noisy
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Man I think the 2204 would have enough gain on tap for most styles unless your going for new metallica stuff of killswitch or something like that. For me having one or two pedals in front of a 2204 is not a sin. I would have my wampler plextortion and mi audio blue boy and with that I could cover virtually every style even clean as Ceriatone amps do much better cleans than marshalls. I know quite a few pedalphobics though and I respect a dude that just has a cable from his guitar to an amp. I think the Ceriatones are pretty much the best for their price.
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
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Man that is scary. I am throwing my amp modding dreams away
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
yeah i figured there was some difficult things involved. by the end of this year, i'll have gone through 3 physics , an intro to comp engineering, circuit analysis, and solid state material science courses. if none of those give me at least a decent idea on how to work with electronics... i'll be pissed.
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
yeah i figured there was some difficult things involved. by the end of this year, i'll have gone through 3 physics , an intro to comp engineering, circuit analysis, and solid state material science courses. if none of those give me at least a decent idea on how to work with electronics... i'll be pissed.
I'd be surprised if any of the courses you're doing will cover anything involving valves. At least you'll know ohms law after all that study :roll:
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So were wondering what kind of stuff should we study to learn this stuff
Mike
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So were wondering what kind of stuff should we study to learn this stuff
Mike
basic electronics is essential, you're going to be able to read resistor colour codes, be aware of wattage and how to calculate dissipation, measuring current, knowing what each pin on the valve base connects to (and how this changes depending on the valve used) etc. etc. etc. it's not something you'll learn over night and not something I can give a structured study plan for.
you'll be best off understanding schematics and studying some of the classic amp designs, maybe get a few books like the Groove Tubes one (its somewhere to start). Lee Jackson's book ain't bad either.
hands on experience is the best way, but I would advise to be cautious. get something simple like an Epiphone Valve Junior, then study the schematic and translate it to the amp so you understand it fully. from then try some basic mods and note the change in tone each gives. more than anything, you'll find that you'll be studying all the time - I'll still learning every day and consider that I've only dipped my toe in the water.
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
yeah i figured there was some difficult things involved. by the end of this year, i'll have gone through 3 physics , an intro to comp engineering, circuit analysis, and solid state material science courses. if none of those give me at least a decent idea on how to work with electronics... i'll be pissed.
I'd be surprised if any of the courses you're doing will cover anything involving valves. At least you'll know ohms law after all that study :roll:
yeah, unfortunately none of this probably will help. next year will be electronic circuits I and II, which should be more help.
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Listen to this Ceriatone JCM 800 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnLDb3SqEBQ
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Listen to this Ceriatone JCM 800 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnLDb3SqEBQ
single channel JCM800s don't have that much gain in their stock form. that amp has either got an extra valve stage inside the amp or a pedal in the front giving it some help.
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Listen to this Ceriatone JCM 800 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnLDb3SqEBQ
Cannot get close to the all time reference JCM800 tone from The Master here: http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=172.0
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
yeah i figured there was some difficult things involved. by the end of this year, i'll have gone through 3 physics , an intro to comp engineering, circuit analysis, and solid state material science courses. if none of those give me at least a decent idea on how to work with electronics... i'll be pissed.
I'd be surprised if any of the courses you're doing will cover anything involving valves. At least you'll know ohms law after all that study :roll:
yeah, unfortunately none of this probably will help. next year will be electronic circuits I and II, which should be more help.
I don't want to put too much of a damper on your enthusiasm but I'm just starting my third year of electronics and aside from basic electronic theory and working practice have learnt very little that is of use in building or designing a valve based amplifier. These courses don't cover anything about valves at all and will not tell you why a given circuit is used in an audio application. Information on bandwith and clipping etc is incredibly sparce.
As HTH says you'd be much better getting your knowledge from books, I personally recommend "The Ultimate Tone" series of books by Kevin O'Connor, they are expensive but invaluable and easily the most comprehensive books on valve amplifiers I have yet found.
http://www.londonpower.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=3
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Do they teach you how to build Marshall style amps? Also does it teach everything from beginner levels. In your opinion. Some of these books that are beginner level loose me on the first page
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Do they teach you how to build Marshall style amps? Also does it teach everything from beginner levels. In your opinion. Some of these books that are beginner level loose me on the first page
Kevin O'Connors "The Ultimate Tone" books cover all types of amps, even going into the benefits and faults of particular brands and their patents. They require you have some experience of electronics and are particularly theory heavy in places, however he has also written books that start from the beginning for the complete novice. These are written in laymans terms, using real examples and so are really easy to relate to. They're not pretty, they don't have photos, diagrams are hand drawn but they are filled with information usefull for anyone who owns, uses, repairs, designs or builds amps.
I know I sound like I have shares in the company but I looked through a lot of books before I found these and I feel these are the best.
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hmm... with all the parts and a schematic (assuming its a detailed one) then isn't the only thing you really need to know how to do is solder?
There's more to it than that. You'll need to know how to bias the power valves, what not to touch whenth amps running to avoid shocking yourself, how to reduce hum by twisting heater wires/using shielded cable etc, how to bug fix when you fire it up and it's not working........
yeah i figured there was some difficult things involved. by the end of this year, i'll have gone through 3 physics , an intro to comp engineering, circuit analysis, and solid state material science courses. if none of those give me at least a decent idea on how to work with electronics... i'll be pissed.
I'd be surprised if any of the courses you're doing will cover anything involving valves. At least you'll know ohms law after all that study :roll:
yeah, unfortunately none of this probably will help. next year will be electronic circuits I and II, which should be more help.
I don't want to put too much of a damper on your enthusiasm but I'm just starting my third year of electronics and aside from basic electronic theory and working practice have learnt very little that is of use in building or designing a valve based amplifier. These courses don't cover anything about valves at all and will not tell you why a given circuit is used in an audio application. Information on bandwith and clipping etc is incredibly sparce.
As HTH says you'd be much better getting your knowledge from books, I personally recommend "The Ultimate Tone" series of books by Kevin O'Connor, they are expensive but invaluable and easily the most comprehensive books on valve amplifiers I have yet found.
http://www.londonpower.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=3
yeah, its quite disappointing. i know none of these college courses will really teach you what you want. i'm just hoping that they give me a good enough base to work with so i understand what i'm doing when i go to research building amps later on. the book you're suggesting is a good idea. how many times did you read over everything before you began to get a grasp on everything?
and i'm also hoping to get a job/apprenticeship with an amp builder or repairer next summer. i'm not sure how many i have around me that would be willing, but i figure that's really the only good way to learn- from someone who knows and can show you hands on.
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The Metroamp kits different mainly in the transformers and the use of PEC 2W Mil Spec Pots, just good quality hardware and iron and as most guitar amp builders will tell you the transformer is the heart of the amp, George at Metro has cloned his 67 and 68 spec plexi's output via heyboer and they're bloody close copies with a helluva lotta tone going on.
Nik's Iron is just a good modern spec transformer using new production materials and standards, it's not imperial sized laminations, I understand it's got the interleaved pattern from the originals but the insulation material is different which makes a difference, and the steel that is used today is not to the same specs it was back in the day for the laminations, where as Metro's Iron is very close to the original.
Another major factory in the amps tone is the coupling caps used Nik uses Mallory 150s and Metro use Sozo, the main difference in coupling caps is the ESR which is the resistance the cap provides against the signal, Sozo has a much higher ESR than Mallory 150 which contibutes to a sweeter tone, less highs, more mids and fatter overall tone.
I've tried all these products and I'm a firm believer in the fact the Metro stuff is in another league tone wise, but then again so it a great original example of a plexi ya just can't quite copy what 30 years of use does to an amp.
I have owned 3 Ceriatone amps. All have been of a very good quality. My perception is that they are definately a step above the Weber kits, but not quite up to the vintage accuracy of a Metroamp kit.
Vintage accuracy in looks? I agree, Metroamp kits have the 'look'.
With regard to tone, there won't be a lot (if anything) in it. And as Marshall changed specs like their underpants back in the sixties, there is no one reference 'tone' anyway!
The Ceriatone stuff is great Indy, drop Nik an email and fill your boots :D
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Doesn't mean the new stuff doesn't sound good mate - just means it's not the same as the old stuff, obviously. But then nothing is, is it?
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Doesn't mean the new stuff doesn't sound good mate - just means it's not the same as the old stuff, obviously. But then nothing is, is it?
Very true, but...
PAF copies, Dave?
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Ahem. Point taken! :oops:
I must stop lining myself up for these things musn't I? :lol:
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I will say that the documentation that the Metroamps kits come with is fantastic, its real step-by-step stuff that even a novice should be able to follow.
Can't speak for the documentation on the Ceriatone stuff, never bought one, just worked on one to repair a blown mains transformer.
For my money though, the extra spent on the Metro kit is money well spent. Not to say the Ceriatones don't rock, they're just not as nice as the Metro stuff - you get what you pay for.
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Do they teach you how to build Marshall style amps? Also does it teach everything from beginner levels. In your opinion. Some of these books that are beginner level loose me on the first page
if you really don't know much about electronics, getting an electronics textbook wouldn't hurt. That's what i did, i still don't know squat, but i know a lot more than i did. it won't go into valves much (if at all), but if you're really starting at the start you probably need to be starting with things like resistors and capacitors etc.
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Further to dave_mc's post, I'd say that building a few overdrive/fuzz pedals is the best way to dip your toes in the water. Plus, any mistakes with a pedal won't kill you (or any expensive components like you have in an amp).
I'd say NOT to get kits, I really think that the potential for learning is greatly reduced with these. Starting from scratch you WILL make mistakes, but thats part of the learning curve. I look back at some of the pedals I made when I was starting out and cringe, but they got me to where I am now.
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if i ever get round to building something (!), i'm probably going to start with a treble booster or something like that. far as i can tell, they have the simplest circuits (the rangemaster, anyway- something like one transistor and about 5 or 6 other resistors and caps). though the fuzz face doesn't have much more than that.
but yeah, i agree with your reasons, HTH, i'd be starting with pedals on the basis that they're non-lethal.
:)
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to be honest, the Rangemaster and Fuzz Face are two circuits that require some tuning to get the best from them and are probably not the best choice for first projects imo.
you could build variations on either of those circuits with more predictable results by doing the following:
* Rangemaster with a silicon transistor (the Brian May TB is very easy to build and sounds great without any tuning)
* Fuzz Face with a silicon transistor in the first stage then a germanium in the second stage. Make sure you bias the second transistor for around 1/2 Vs (4.5v in other words) - this is where they sound best. Anywhere between 4-6v on the collector of the second stage transistor is fine - lower voltages will give more compression.
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to be honest, the Rangemaster and Fuzz Face are two circuits that require some tuning to get the best from them and are probably not the best choice for first projects imo.
you could build variations on either of those circuits with more predictable results by doing the following:
* Rangemaster with a silicon transistor (the Brian May TB is very easy to build and sounds great without any tuning)
* Fuzz Face with a silicon transistor in the first stage then a germanium in the second stage. Make sure you bias the second transistor for around 1/2 Vs (4.5v in other words) - this is where they sound best. Anywhere between 4-6v on the collector of the second stage transistor is fine - lower voltages will give more compression.
HTH, i was wondering about some of those things, mind checking out the pedal thread? its a few down.
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Whats the difference between Ceriatone and Metroamp? Do they compare well tonally? Metroamps are pricier.
Mike
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Metroamp are more vintage accurate if that's your thing. The circuits are the same, but the components differ if that makes sense?
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Whats the difference between Ceriatone and Metroamp? Do they compare well tonally? Metroamps are pricier.
Mike
I'd say that overall, the Metro kits have better quality components and sound more vintage accurate (and subjectively better).
That doesn't make the Ceriatones bad amps, they're just more in the ballpark than being dead on repros. The weak link in them are the transformers imo. The chassis and turret board and everything else is all really robustly put together, it's a shame about the iron imo.
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I'd say that overall, the Metro kits have better quality components and sound more vintage accurate (and subjectively better).
Overall? I don't agree. Ceriatone quality is fine, using the same parts as many other more expensive amps. I don't recall Marshall using top end components anyway!
The transformers might not look as posh, but in terms of function they are pretty good. In terms of sound, well as you said, it's subjective. It's a myth with transformers that expensive equals better sound. Sometimes the cheapness causes colouration that is beneficial.
Just a balancing opinion. :)
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So in your opinion Martin, Ceriatone are just different from Metroamps?
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So in your opinion Martin, Ceriatone are just different from Metroamps?
Yes and no. Ha, Sorry! :D
Metro kits are dearer, and it shows in some ways, but in my opinion (and just my opinion, there will be others) not in ways that matter.
For my money, being "budget concious", I'd have a Ceriatone.
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Not to mention Metroamp does not offer a JCM 800 kit.
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Not to mention Metroamp does not offer a JCM 800 kit.
au contraire...
http://metroamp.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=44&products_id=505
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For my money, being "budget concious", I'd have a Ceriatone.
Good to hear! :P
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:)