Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on June 22, 2009, 08:46:15 PM
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I've just fired the singer from Doppelganger :( He wasn't good enough, and had some ego issues, so he had to go. But I still feel really bad.
I hate being the boss sometimes :(
Just had to share...
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You said it, brutha!
Even in the best band situations, it's a sh!t-tonne of work. I always loved the music on your clips, though I thought the singing could be better. Here's to hoping you find someone that's ultra cool and sounds like Ray Gillen!!
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You may feel bad now Dave but I guarantee when you find a singer you are happy with you'll be so much happier about it.
How did you approach it? It's a tough conversation to have isn't it? Sounds like the best decision was made.
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I can't imagine how that feels. Sorry to hear it. I hope you find a suitable replacement soon!
I have a friend who has the same problem, I think the singer is ok at the singing, but has ego issues, and doesn't want to do the publicity stuff, thinks a record company is going to turn up and sign them without the need to do any leg work.
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Sounds like the best decision was made.
That's what I thought too when I read your post.
Hope you'll find a new good & cool singer soon. PDT_015
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I was in the same situation a few years ago. I had put together a band and we were doing ok, maybe gigging roughly twice a week but the singer was holding us back from progressing any further. He took forever to learn his lyrics (even though he wrote most of them) and he wasn't all that a great singer so he had to go. The bad thing was though he was also one of my really really good friends. That was probably one of the hardest things I had to do in my whole life.
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I have a friend who has the same problem, I think the singer is ok at the singing, but has ego issues, and doesn't want to do the publicity stuff, thinks a record company is going to turn up and sign them without the need to do any leg work.
That sounds exactly like the singer in my old band. We're both Hampshire based so it could be! I'm sure there is more than one singer in Hampshire with ego problems though!
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You said it, brutha!
Even in the best band situations, it's a sh!t-tonne of work. I always loved the music on your clips, though I thought the singing could be better. Here's to hoping you find someone that's ultra cool and sounds like Ray Gillen!!
Thanks Ben. Most people who've seen us say the music was great but the singer wasn't. It was only a matter of time, and that time has now come. As they say, the show must go on!
How did you approach it? It's a tough conversation to have isn't it? Sounds like the best decision was made.
I've had doubts for a bit, and I'd mentioned it a few times with Martin (MJW) who's the other guitarist in the band. I got some recordings of our gig last Friday and listening back to them was the final straw - the vocals just didn't match the quality of the musicianship.
After speaking to Martin again, and our drummer who is an original band member too, we all agreed it was time for a change. I sent him an email so I could phrase it as best I could, and we're meeting up tomorrow to get his share of the PA back from him and give him his money. It's gone about as well as it could do I guess.
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You sacked him by email? I'd be thoroughly unimpressed if that were me, I have to say.
Better off rid though, than trying to move forward with most of you being unhappy with his performance.
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Yes, email is harsh. I know. We were never in the habit of talking on the phone much, so that would have been awkward. And I didn't want to hit him with it at rehearsal tomorrow face-to-face with the other guys there - too confrontational. Most of our band communication has been via email, it's the way we work.
I took my time, phrased something really nicely, and got my wording just right. Face to face, or via a phone call, I'd say something he'd take issue with. I wanted it to be very clear and simple. In the "old days" I would have written him a letter, so I've just done the modern equivalent.
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Being any sort of group leader can be a pain,
In high school I was group leader of me and my amigos and it was up to me to arrange everything call everyone set everything up and spend the most money :x
I remember once having to kick a friend of a friend out of our core group, being the nice guy that I am I wasn't sure if I could do it, but my best friend urged me to pick up the phone and "be an ass for once," so sure enough I called him-
"Hey Rob, we gotta talk"
"Sure what's goin on"
"Umm....there's no hangout tonight"
"Cool we rescheduling for later,"
"umm....no, its just you who's not hanging out tonight"
"What?"
"YOUR A CREEP AND I CAN'T STAND YOU SO STAY AWAY FROM ME AND MY FRIENDS!"
Click! And never heard from him again~
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The good thing about doing it by email is that it gives you a chance to say what you want to say and give it a lot of thought. My preference is always talking but with something like this it can get out of control pretty quickly and you can lose what you wanted to say and the way you wanted to say it - particularly if the person you are talking to doesn't like what you are saying or is no good with feedback/bad news (something my old singer was notoriously bad with).
You'll have to keep us posted on your search for a new singer Dave!
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Cheers Ian. Our singer didn't take feedback well, which was another reason I asked him to leave. Email was the best way, for the reasons you describe.
I'll let you know how the search goes...
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i've never kicked anyone out my band.
being band leader is bogus though. at the moment i have to book vans, design merch, get merch printed, book ferry tickets, deal with promoters and just about everything else, as well as write music. and work a full time job.
SUCKS but i probably cant trust anything to any of the weirdos in my band anyway.
ifi had to kick anyone out, id be like "mate, look at the kipp o ya!"
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Our singer didn't take feedback well
Just want to add, i think this is really important. regardless of how good anyone is in the band, its so much easier if everyone is open to opinion about their own role and so on, without getting upset if someone is critical. I think this is really important when it comes to developing as a band
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I hope the search goes well Dave. I have had to do it but my long standing drummer has always come with me to the meetings and has been supportive whenever we have done the deed-in fact it is a joint effort. There is a possibility that we will have to fire one of the guys in the band and that is not going to be easy because he is a nice bloke...but hopefully we can resolve the issues.
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On balance.
Probably the right thing to do.
I get the feeling the band won't miss him.
I know a fat bloke in New Mills that might be interested. He only knows 1 song about a girl called Rosie though
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Here's to hoping you find someone that's ultra cool and sounds like Ray Gillen!!
+1
But be a bit nicer to him than Badlands were to Ray!
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On balance.
Probably the right thing to do.
I get the feeling the band won't miss him.
It just wasn't 'right', and it's interesting that you picked that up from one gig.
I know a fat bloke in New Mills that might be interested. He only knows 1 song about a girl called Rosie though
He can only sing partially clothed too, apparently ;) :lol:
(Sorry everyone - in joke. Matt came to our gig on Friday night and we had a rowdy local getting his belly out to Whole Lotta Rosie!)
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On balance.
Probably the right thing to do.
I get the feeling the band won't miss him.
It just wasn't 'right', and it's interesting that you picked that up from one gig.
I know a fat bloke in New Mills that might be interested. He only knows 1 song about a girl called Rosie though
He can only sing partially clothed too, apparently ;) :lol:
(Sorry everyone - in joke. Matt came to our gig on Friday night and we had a rowdy local getting his belly out to Whole Lotta Rosie!)
He had his tits out as well if I recall.
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Our singer didn't take feedback well
Just want to add, i think this is really important. regardless of how good anyone is in the band, its so much easier if everyone is open to opinion about their own role and so on, without getting upset if someone is critical. I think this is really important when it comes to developing as a band
Agreed. THe ability to take feedback/criticism well is a crucial sign for any good team member.
As for the "firing by email", I can see you're point, Dave, about wanting to word it right. I think I'd probably do the same thing, even though a phone call or speaking face to face seems more personal.
We fired our drummer at the end of last year, which was a real pain but worked out well in the end, as I'm sure you're situation will.
We don't actually have a leader, as everything is fully decided communally. A LOT of emails are sent ! It works well for us. We have to have band meetings when big decisions need to be made. Obviously if it involves sacking someone, the initial meeting will be without them !!
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The feedback thing is really important to me too. As a group, we've all helped each other - drums, bass, guitars and backing vocals - but the one thing that hasn't gone anywhere is the lead vocal. It's a real shame, as we've all worked really hard to get to this point.
I think we'll be more savvy taking someone on now, so hopefully it'll work out OK. We've got a couple of people interested already and we're trying one out tonight...
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He had his tits out as well if I recall.
:lol: Yep!
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Ian
There are some singers in Hampshire without massive egos......
:shock:
:D
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Being band leader is great. I had to fire a drummer once, he cried which made me feel really bad for a second and then his dad rang up! What a tw@t!
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Owell... when it works it works and when it doesnt just kick it TF.
Ive wasted alot of time getting nowhere because i was to gentile, learn from it and just go on.
Cover bands hold you back even more if you would ask me....
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Ian
There are some singers in Hampshire without massive egos......
:shock:
:D
Whoops, forgot about you :oops: You'll have to let me know when and where you're next playing an I'll come along.
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http://uk.local.yahoo.com/Bordon/GU35_8/Hampshire/Public_Houses/1041118709-e-26347414.html
Royal Oak - July 4th - 21:00
Mike
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Good stuff - will be there if I can make it. I can't promise that I will be like the big guy with his tits out at Twinfan's gig!!
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:lol:
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A quick update on my situation for you all.
The singer had a part share in the PA, so I'd asked him in the 'goodbye' email to let me know when was convenient to collect it and to give him his cash. He replied with a very short email saying he'd bring it to outside our rehearsal rooms the following night, which was fine.
Myself and our drummer went to meet him and we said hello from across the road in a friendly manner. He didn't say a word, opened the boot, took the money, put the PA on the pavement and left in silence. Not a single word, with a face like we'd just drowned his cat in front of him. I didn't exepct all jolly niceness, but the behaviour of an adult would have been good :(
He's since binned off all the band members as friends on Facebook and hasn't said a word to any of us. Clearly he's upset, but it's only a band isn't it? Ah well, seems like it was for the best if that's the attitude he has to things.
On a positive note ( :) ), we auditioned a female singer and she was pretty good! It would change the feel and set list of the band quite a bit with girlie rock vocals, so we need to decide if we want to change direction a bit. We have a guy auditioning the week after next too, who would slot in with very little effort, so it may be that we have a tough choice to make.
Oh, and I'm heading off to a vocal coach for my first session next week.............
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Oh, and I'm heading off to a vocal coach for my first session next week.............
That's the way forward! Then no-one has to just stand around looking like a tw@t when the band goes into an extended jam. :D
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Ha ha! Exactly! :lol:
I'm looking to get my backing vocals spot on, but I'm also after an assessment to see if there's a reasonable voice in there that could be brushed up. I'd love to front my own band one day...
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Has the lady got big baps?
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Not as big as the dude you referred to earllier ;)
The bloke who's interested has just quit his current band ( :o ) so we're squeezing him in for an audition next Wedneday. Fingers crossed, but he's the current front runner for the job...
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One of my mates refers to a band situation as "a benign dictatorship at best" - i.e. democracy only gets you so far - at some point somehow has to say "No - we do it like this"!
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Exactly! I can't see how Hamfist's band works at all! You always need someone to call the shots occasionally in my experience :)
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He's since binned off all the band members as friends on Facebook
woah, now that a proper 2009 turn up of the nose right there
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He must be hurt and humiliated and that can be difficult to take.
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Yep, guess so. I do feel sorry for him.
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Exactly! I can't see how Hamfist's band works at all! You always need someone to call the shots occasionally in my experience :)
I've been in a load of bands and I have to say that my current band is very refreshing in the attitude of us all. However, I'm well aware that it is not the norm.
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You're a lucky man then :D
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We have had a dose of the old band politics lately- bloody tedious.
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And now the 'behind my back' emails have started :roll:
You gotta love it.
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Could be a coup, better hire some mercenaries... :lol:
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Quite the opposite actually. The drummer told him some truths about his vocal (lack of) quality and it seems have shut him up. I just told him it didn't suit the band, but the drummer was a bit more honest!!!
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i just saw a video of "crazy train" and, honestly, you should have done it before!
if i were in UK i think you'd have just found a MUCH better singer! :P
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Ha ha - cheers mate!
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Quite the opposite actually. The drummer told him some truths about his vocal (lack of) quality and it seems have shut him up. I just told him it didn't suit the band, but the drummer was a bit more honest!!!
That's good, the last thing you need is him whining and creating a bad undercurrent.
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We are similar position with our drummer...
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Ouch :( Best thing we did was to move on, so I hope your situation works out.
We've got our second singer audition lined up for tomorrow night...
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I'm finding it very hard at the moment too. I write all the music for my band, it's actually really my baby, everything is written and designed by me, the only other people are the guys who help me bring it all to the live stage.
But our last gig was meant to be something of a milestone for us, we finally got a supporting slot at our local "good" venue, the Cavern in Exeter. I told the guys the moment we got offered it that we couldn't mess up, we had to play the best we've ever played as a lot of good bands go through the Cavern and shortly afterwards get signed or otherwise have something else good happen to them.
I tried to get a practice sorted, a couple of the guys were up for it but one in particular said it's ok, he'd practised a lot on his own and he promised me nothing would go wrong on the night.
We played an absolutely abysmal set. We had tech problems, but that's nothing to stop a good performance. The guy who made me the promise and said he didn't need a practise messed up MASSIVELY on 3 seperate songs out of a 5 song set. To say I felt betrayed was an understatement.
So now I'm considering just letting the band die. This thing was my biggest dream and someone I trusted killed it in one fell swoop. I don't even want to show my face at the Cavern again because of the sheer embarrassment caused by our fumbled set.
So I feel where you're coming from, except I've decided to take the easy way out and not fire anyone, just tell them I'm not doing it anymore. Seems easier. :?
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The guy who made me the promise and said he didn't need a practise messed up MASSIVELY on 3 seperate songs out of a 5 song set.
I've experienced this and it is soul destroying. Songs played in the wrong key, capos on the wrong fret, chords being played out of order and a song being stopped and restarted all in the same set due to our singer screwing up. Absolutely soul destroying, particularly when the audience start shouting things like "you're rubbish" and "get off".
Apparently it wasn't even the singers fault!
If you get a new band and get back on your feet you might be confident enough to go back - sounds like it would be a shame if you didn't go back and prove that you're not as bad as you were that night.
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Yeah, well, we'll see. There's one other guy in the band apart from me who has invested a lot of time and effort in it, I can 100% rely on him and he travels a long way just to practice and gig with us, the guy is pure gold. I guess it would be a shame for him to have done all that only for me to dump it all. Maybe there's something he and I can do together rather than throw all his effort away. If I was to quit entirely, the worst thing for me would be to think of him and all he's put into the band being for nothing. I think I owe him more than a walk-out, heh.
I guess I have to think on this some more really.
But as you say, really disheartening! We had to stop a song halfway and one of the Guitarists managed to get us back on track, but there were definitely heads shaking in the crowd that night. :(
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Yup, reminds me why I only do 'projects' and 'stand in'!
Good luck Nadz1lla, it seems bad now but I bet it will be a great story in your interviews once you've 'made it' :D :D
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Yes Nadz1lla you should think about trying again but with the guy you can depend on and forget the others. I was thinking, as I read your post, where it was leading. It is very frustrating particularly when it is your own project though sometimes that can be the issue-where the others don't engage but you'd think it would be obvious beforehand but it isn't because you are busy holding it all together. It doesn't sound as though it has affected your desire though so get some new guys and go knock em bandy.
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At some point i saw every band as a project, since i wrote most music anyway. Some worked some didnt, just that.
If you really want to get more out of this band you really need to replace whatever factor that isnt working or just head on with the people who do work. It took me way too long to realise that, and by the time i did i was way too late to get something going which would take off.
Prioritize what you want to archieve and start working at that, expecting everything to 'happen' spontaneously wont work, at least it never did for me.
Greetings, Henk
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Well I agree with others that firing by email is weak. Based on this and together with the personal disappointment, I can completely understand his reaction, I don't think it's very immature based on the way you treated him.
Anyways, moving on I have to say that a female singer does add a lot of change to a band, songs are different and the overall feel changes. It becomes more important to play subtle and nicely worked out rhythm arrangements. Less solo work normally. But it opens up some nice opportunities, like playing some version of Katy Perry stuff etc which can be loads of fun.
And if she looks good it can bring a lot of success too.
I think if you can mix male and female vocals, it's perfect. Either you could hire a guy and a girl or you could get the girl and sing some dude songs yourself while she is playing the tambourine (or if she could pull off some acoustic guitar while you sing, even better).
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Our drummer sings backing vocals too, so I'm hoping the three of us can produce something worth listening to. I agree about the change to a band with female vocals, but it can make you a bit less rock n roll if you're not careful. We're re-auditioning her tomorrow tonight as the guy we tried last week didn't work out.
It's funny how people have reacted to the 'fired by email' thing. There are so many ways to communicate these days:
Face to face
Telephone conversation
Text message
Email
Facebook
Instant Messaging
PM via a forum
etc
Why is email so inappropriate????
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Why is email so inappropriate????
My take on this is that nobody is really qualified to say what is 'right' or 'wrong' other than you or your other band members. Nobody else knows what the singer is like, what the history was, how he takes feedback, if he is confrontational etc.
For this reason I just don't see how people can judge if it is right or wrong. I can see why people might think it is wrong but they can't really qualify it.
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To me it shows a lack of respect or compassion if you do it by email, email to me represents something unpersonal and low effort. Writing a letter is a different thing. Face to face is apropriate in my book, as it means you face the other person and let yourself be exposed to the immediate disappointment of the other party. Cannot really explain why, that's just the way I feel.
There are these stories about dumping the GF by SMS, it's kinda the same thing as email to me.
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I can sort of see your point, but I didn't feel the need to expose myself to that situation........
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I can sort of see your point, but I didn't feel the need to expose myself to that situation........
Well, aaanyways, now let's talk about that girl singer of yours. Pics or she looks like Jo Brand!
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I haven't got any pics - that would be a bit too freaky for an audition!
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I've had another listen to the clips on MySpace...
I can see what you mean...
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Yup. I can sing better myself...
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Cheers for the encouragement guys! I think that's the way forward! :)
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I haven't got any pics - that would be a bit too freaky for an audition!
Agreed !!
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Slightly off topic, but on a similar subject
I've had a tough day in work today and need to vent
I wish I could sack people by e-mail
Unfortunately legal procedures mean it has to be face to face
Apparently in China you have to hand them a letter and if it doesn't touch them they aren't dismissed
I have visions. Right now somewhere in China a HR Officer is chasing a chinese worker around a meeting room table with a letter
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Ouch - that sucks Matt :(
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I can't grumble too much
Job = Money = Gear