Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: Not Me on June 25, 2009, 05:28:38 PM
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Sounds you need to have that guitar professionally set up.
B. If you put a weak SG, weak PAF's and a weak amp together, what do you expect? Anyway, if i were you i would ask Tim in the nicest way possible if he minds you try a different pickup because this isnt the one for you, and get some rebels or whatever you would need.
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the "things" you mean are the frets? :D
No idea, better search a luthier there too see the options and discover what you want, seems to me you're not 100% right about...
EDIT: +1 on asking to Tim about the pickup, you may have made a wrong choice!
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"Sounds you need to have that guitar professionally set up."
- Maybe. Probably.
"B. If you put a weak SG, weak PAF's and a weak amp together, what do you expect? Anyway, if i were you i would ask Tim in the nicest way possible if he minds you try a different pickup because this isnt the one for you, and get some rebels or whatever you would need."
- Rebels? Well, surely the Special isn't the Standard, but bothering to pay some 800 euros had me thinking I'd get a decent guitar, anyway. I'm aware of the fact that the H&K probably isn't the best that money can buy, but there's something fishy about the guitar.
I'm not sure I want to bother Tim just yet! I do realize it's a low-output pu, it's not that which I find "weak", but the muddyness I'm getting, which is certainly not due to the amp and probably not the pickup, either.
"No idea, better search a luthier there too see the options and discover what you want, seems to me you're not 100% right about..."
- Yes, I guess I'd better. Just thought you'd have thoughts on it.
Thanks for the replies. I reckon it's luthier time for me. But I still doubt I've made a wrong choice, as far as the pickup goes. I play alot of blues, rock and hard rock, and listening to a lot of different samples and live examples I was sold on this particular one.
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But would anyone have insight into how bridge heights and bridge / pickup balances (not meaning their distances to each other as such, but seeing as BKP's especially seem to be sensitive to string heights, one would imagine that strings coming at a 45 degree bend over a humbucker from the bridge to the fretboard would have an impact of some sort) would have in the overall scheme of things?
I like researching as much as possible, before I go handing my guitar over to someone that I don't know. Have been flirting with those strings and it would seem that they're happier downstairs when letting ring open, but it could be just me imagining things.
Even though there's structural things to be set, I'm very suspicious of the electronic side of things. And then there's that big buzzing sound whenever strings are idle and loose. Doesn't happen with other instruments.
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Well you could come over to Holland and ill have a look at it but...........
Like you say, there is something wrong with the setup of the guitar and i think you should have it fixed, cant help more i guess.
Secondly, at least my BKPs are quite sensitive to pu hight, even so much that after a while, when the magnet/windings settled in, i had to change the hight of the bridge pu several times to correct it. Not so much with the neck pu by the way, kind of odd i suppose.
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OK, thanks, dude.
I'm off to the local music shop tomorrow morning. It's the only thing I can think of.
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one would imagine that strings coming at a 45 degree bend over a humbucker from the bridge to the fretboard would have an impact of some sort) would have in the overall scheme of things?
That's a design problem with those big-scratchplate SGs and Vs, the pickups sit parallel to the scratchplate rather than the strings. You can improve things by fitting some standard angled mounting rings on top of the scratchplate.
And then there's that big buzzing sound whenever strings are idle and loose. Doesn't happen with other instruments.
Do you mean strings buzzing on the neck, or an electronic buzz when you're plugged in and take your fingers off the strings? If it's the latter, it's probably because SG Specials, like many Gibsons, are completely unshielded. Some conductive foil or shielding paint in the cavities would help reduce this. But it may also affect the tone a little - some people prefer the "live" tone of an unshielded guitar.
As for the other things you mentioned, sloppy wiring doesn't really affect sound quality - it's more a case of "it works or it doesn't". A generally lifeless, dull sound may be partly due to the pots - Gibson often use 300k volume pots (more in LPs than SGs, I think, but possibly still in SGs). 500k pots may open it up a bit more.
And finally I would say that the Stormy Monday isn't the kind of pickup where you'll notice a dramatic change. It's a low-output, alnico II pickup so not a million miles from the 490T you've replaced. The difference is subtle, and you'll need some time getting used to the sound, fiddling with the pickup height, changing amp settings etc to get the most from it. Even then, it may not be what you were hoping for- it happens!
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Thank you, Phil. That was insightful.
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All right, then.
Music shop wasn't of much help.
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If the strings are buzzing against the frets, you wont get any tone or sustain only dead sounding strumming noises. Raising the strings only works when you play near the headstock but halfway down the neck you keep the same problem. Main issue here seems to be the lack of a pro setup and probably less then perfect fretwork.
Mounting angled pickup rings on the scratchplate might influence the action, be sure to fix the neck related issues before installing pickup rings because you might run into a problem there.
Also the thin SG necks need some adjustment to take 12's instead of 10's, if you have the guitar set up, get it done with the strings you prefer.
Last tip, dont mess with the thrussrod if you dont know what your doing!
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Might have to have a look at the pots. What I heard was seriously phenomenal. I doubt that lack of sustain is a characteristic of the SM. Could be wrong, of course.
lack of sustain is much more characteristic of a buzzing fretboard, i fear! strings are stopped by SOMETHING, and this kills sustain without any hope of saving the day with a pickup change...
i agree completely with Philly, maybe you should give a try to contemporary or hot vintage pickups... and in general to something brighter or more powerful than an AII SM... SGs need bright pickups. or heavy monsters like a warpig!
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Could be settings, too, yeh.
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SGs need bright pickups. or heavy monsters like a warpig!
+1
Even more so, SG's always had bright pickups in them originally. P90's, mini HB, 490's..... :band5:
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Well, I've always been a bit of a black sheep. :)
You wont be the first and most definately you wont be the last m8 :P
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Gonna experiment with different (and thicker!) strings and more high-resistant potentiometers at some point.
And different cigarette packets? :wink:
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Gonna experiment with different (and thicker!) strings and more high-resistant potentiometers at some point.
And different cigarette packets? :wink:
Most definitely!
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If it helps, down the neck playing style affects this. With tender, tender sweeps it's hardly noticeable. But up the neck it doesn't matter what you do.
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I'm wondering how much relief there is in the neck. Changing back and forth from 10s to 12s will need some adjustment of the trussrod - which Henk mentioned - and even if that has been done it can take time to settle.
Try fretting a string (or putting a capo) at the 1st fret, and also fret high up where the neck joins the body (say around the 17th fret). Then keeping the string fretted at both points, take a look how much gap there is between the string and the frets around the 7th/8th fret. There should be just a tiny gap.
If there's a big gap, there's too much relief - in which case setting the bridge for a low action at the upper frets will still leave a high action around the middle of the neck. So notes will ring clearly at the lower frets but may buzz at the upper frets. In that case, the trussrod needs tightening.
If there's no gap at all, the neck is dead straight or may even have a bit of a back bow, which means you'd get fret buzz mainly on the lower/middle frets. In that case, the trussrod needs loosening.
If you do adjust the trussrod, do it very gradually - only about 1/8 of a turn, then leave it to settle for a while and retune. If there's still a problem, adjust it another 1/8 of a turn.
(http://www.mrguitartech.com/setup/neck%20relief.gif)
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I'm not sure which is classified as big in this context, but I'd say there's a tiny gap that runs from the 5th to the 10th fret. Should it be located at around the mentioned 7-8 only?
Yes, I had it done at a proffesional. I don't even think I'd have the tools right now, though I've been assured that adjusting the truss rod is safe, if only done with caution.
I think the guitar acted somewhat the same with the 10s, though that might have also been due to neck tension, of course.
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I'm not sure which is classified as big in this context, but I'd say there's a tiny gap that runs from the 5th to the 10th fret. Should it be located at around the mentioned 7-8 only?
No, there should be a gap as you've described, but 7th/8th would probably be the deepest part. Think of it like an archer's bow - the neck is slightly curved upwards, and the fretted string is creating a straight line to let you see how much curve there is.
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Might just then be fine, fine tuning if it's down to the neck, as you'd suspect. It would appear to be within the criteria of tiny. :)
I've been playing now a bit unplugged, doesn't seem that evident. But once amplified it becomes a pain in the (r)ear.
I'll just flirt around with the neck then to see if it helps. You don't think that things such as the nut and its condition could have an affect? It appears worse with the lower (as per position, not tone height) strings, especially the B string.
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A badly cut nut can cause string buzz - when you're playing open strings. But when you're playing fretted notes it makes no difference.
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Ah, Yes. Makes sense. Thanks!
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What is the relationship between the saddle(?) and the bridge? Seeing as they're both adjustable, one would guess they'd have an effect on one another, though I can't quite figure out what it could be. Obviously strings would be tighter the lower the saddle.
Having read your post again, I must say that having the bridge high provides me with high action at the higher frets and low action near the headstock, though I haven't noticed any improvements (bridge used to be about halfway lower prior to this, leaving low action throughout the fretboard. In both cases buzzing worsens closer to the body).
Body/neck joint on my SG appears to be at the 19th, which when fretted along with the 1st fret leaves a VERY little gap. So much so, that I'm not sure if the e-strings windings are touching the 7th fret (or any other) or not. This is too close, yes? If so, do the symptoms apply to the diagnose (truss rod too tight?)?
Also, I don't remember noticing this buzzing issue - only being unhappy with the overall sound - while I'd switched from 9's to 10's and from 10's to 12's without touching the truss rod at all (hey, I just play the damn thing!), though then again it would have been harder to notice with the poor amp and pickup I was using at the time...
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The bridge obviously adjusts the overall string height, and naturally it gives low action near the headstock and slightly higher action as you move towards the higher frets - if the strings were absolutely parallel to the neck they'd buzz like crazy, you need a bit more clearance as you move up the neck as there's more movement of the strings.
The saddles are mainly adjustable forwards and backwards to adjust intonation. They don't allow for any height adjustment except by filing the string slots deeper. There's normally no need to do this except to match the bridge/saddle radius with the radius of the fingerboard - which shouldn't be necessary on an SG.
If you're getting fret buzz on the upper frets even with the bridge raised high, it suggests there may still not be enough relief on the neck. The guitar MIGHT also benefit from a little "fall-away" on the upper frets - which basically means the top few frets (say 15-22) should be filed a little lower than the others. This is pretty complicated stuff and very much something for a pro to look at! A bit more info here:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-1139363.html (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-1139363.html)
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Thanks a lot again! Good to know I'm not crazy. :)
Need to find another tech, as the one previously appointed to me obviously didn't take the issue very seriously.
Tech: "There's always fret buzz, but it doesn't actually have an affect on playing, as it isn't amplified."
Me: "But it is amplified"
Tech: "No it isn't. That's a physical impossibility, as I've tried to explain."
Me: "But surely, I get really cr@ppy sustain etc."
Tech: "You get bad sustain, because the stings are vibrating against the frets. There's nothing you can do about it, though I can have the bridge raised for you, if you want."
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He doesn't sound too clued up. It's true that a bit of light fret buzz doesn't come through the amp, but if the strings are rattling like a sitar you'll hear that!
To say you get bad sustain because the strings are vibrating against the frets, and there's nothing you can do about it, is nonsense - if it was true it would apply to all guitars.
You need to find a better tech, I think. Maybe someone on here could help, where are you based?
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I'm in Finland - some 100 kms from our nation's capital, where I had it "fixed".
But I apparently already found a good one through a google search, also from Helsinki. Knew exactly what I was talking about and said pretty much what you said. Friendly over the phone.
How does this sound? Fret filing (if nececcary), nut change to a bone one, pot upgrade to 500k and setup for some ~150 euros. Assuming, of course, I'd be getting the job properly done.
Dude runs a place called Kitarahuolto, maybe someone could compliment him?
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I do most setup/modification/minor repair things myself, but based on the couple of bits of work I have had done professionally I think that sounds a pretty fair price. Maybe someone else will comment.
I'm pretty sure we have some forum members from Finland!
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Thank you kindly.
The operation above would take place in August as he's going on vacation, which gives me some time to gather cash and further inspect the guitar on my own. Might also have some mounting rings installed, guess they would look a bit more elegant than a piece of paper. :)
So, in the end it's gonna cost me about the same as the SG Standard would have, but possibly I'll have an even better guitar, only with more boring fretboard inlays.
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Thank you kindly.
The operation above would take place in August as he's going on vacation, which gives me some time to gather cash and further inspect the guitar on my own. Might also have some mounting rings installed, guess they would look a bit more elegant than a piece of paper. :)
So, in the end it's gonna cost me about the same as the SG Standard would have, but possibly I'll have an even better guitar, only with more boring fretboard inlays.
But it's also possible that you'd need a fret levelling and set up on the SG Standard as well, and now you've got the Stormy Monday you could always put it in a new guitar if you decide to upgrade in the future.
Good luck :)
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Thank you kindly.
The operation above would take place in August as he's going on vacation, which gives me some time to gather cash and further inspect the guitar on my own. Might also have some mounting rings installed, guess they would look a bit more elegant than a piece of paper. :)
So, in the end it's gonna cost me about the same as the SG Standard would have, but possibly I'll have an even better guitar, only with more boring fretboard inlays.
But it's also possible that you'd need a fret levelling and set up on the SG Standard as well, and now you've got the Stormy Monday you could always put it in a new guitar if you decide to upgrade in the future.
Good luck :)
- Yup.
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"The saddles are mainly adjustable forwards and backwards to adjust intonation. They don't allow for any height adjustment except by filing the string slots deeper. "
- Yes, then the questionmark was in place. :) I tried to refer to that bit through which you initially insert the strings, before the bridge.
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- Yes, then the questionmark was in place. :) I tried to refer to that bit through which you initially insert the strings, before the bridge.
Ah, the tailpiece! :)
Again, it makes some difference, but it probably isn't contributing much to your string buzz.
Normally, the tailpiece is set as low as possible so that the strings make a good angle behind the saddles, but also high enough that the E strings don't touch the back edge of the bridge (some people say this has a detrimental effect on tone, but to be honest I haven't really noticed it).
If you raise the tailpiece, so the string angle behind the bridge is decreased, it decreases the string tension a bit and makes the strings easier to bend. You can get the same effect by inserting the strings from the front of the tailpiece, and wrapping them over the top (Zakk Wylde style).
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Thank you once again, Phil! You've been very helpful.
Henk, too, and everybody else!
Upon closer analysis of the near past, I think the initial technician might have disliked me, as I went shirtless and probably stinking into his shop (it was scorching hot that day and I had just done sitting one hour in my car!).
I'll let you know the results in August.
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Oh, shirtless in shops is a bad idea! How hot does it get in Finland?
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Must have been nearly 30 celcius in the shade, though it can get a tad hotter than that.
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Dude runs a place called Kitarahuolto, maybe someone could compliment him?
I've heard Kitarahuolto is the best, haven't tried it myself but a friend had his 7-string Jem set up there and the result was great! I had my guitars set up for studio at http://www.lottonen.com/ (http://www.lottonen.com/) last year, they did a good job and their prices are affordable. Will probably try Kitarahuolto next time.
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That's great to hear!
Cheers!