Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: badgermark on July 08, 2009, 12:18:56 AM
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Howdie folks, I need advice about music stuff.
I'm moving to a new house soon, and i want a good stereo/hi fi thingy. Looking for something to play my vinyls on, I've started a little collection and actually want to listen to the things. Basically I want something that plays CDs and vinyl records, and the option to plug a ipod in might be handy. Suitable for relaxing at home listenings, I'm not needing anything to be 'party loud'.
No idea about a budget, I have absolutely no experience in the hi fi area, give me suggestions but nothing to extravagant. So BKP-ers, what do i need?
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Rega P2 turntable ... decent cartridge (even a Sumiko Pearl would be okay) ... Creek or NAD phono stage ... Arcam Solo Music ... Arcam rDock ... loudspeakers of choice. That will certainly get the job done.
The Arcam solo is a CD player/amp. The Rega is affordable and a very decent belt drive table. The rDock will allow 2 way communication between your iPod and the hifi.
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Been checking out what you recommended Ben, and hells they be expensive.
Am I really looking to spend upwards of £1000 for a CD player/amp? Right now I'm really looking for something that I can sit in my living room and say 'that'll do!' instead of getting a loan and being blown away.
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I asked Ben once about turntables and phono stages and he told me it was basically a waste of time spending less than a grand on just those. I do believe you have to spend rather a lot before you get to decent, though.
I've been looking at Rega stuff after a few hifi shops recommended them though. Interested in this thread.
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:lol: well Ben is known for his expensive tastes!
I would try over at the What Hi Fi forum, will probably get a more suitable recommendation I think. All I will say from my limited experience is that I love Mordaunt Short loudspeakers. Got a pair of MS25i's at uni and they sound awesome - big bass with a huge sound, yet loads of clarity and it doesnt sound harsh.
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I always plugged in my computer/MP3 player directly into my amp. Got a lead with a phono sockets on one end and a headphone jack on the other. Served me alright for years.
Got a Denon PMA 250SE amp which has served me well for years now but I'm thinking of upgrading as I need something with a little more AHHHHH. You can pick them up really cheap now, but they need to have a phono card in for pre-amping a turntable. They didn't come with these as standard to keep the costs down.
Just bought some TDL RTL2 speakers which are an absolute steal for the £50 mark (but this is why I'm changing the amp as they need a bit more of a kick in the arse to get them going - perfectly acceptible as they are, but I just want more :D)
Don't know much about turntables but I hear Dual are fairly good for the money. What ever you get, just make sure you can still get cartiridges/needles for them.
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Rather than suggestions, general advice
Priority of gear, in my experience.
- Speakers are by far the most important thing (along with where you place them)
- Amp is next, with speaker-amp matching being a very big deal indeed
- Source is last - theres enough variation in them that you can have a source good enough that the rest of the setup doesnt do it justice, its probably most important to just not spend so much that you overshoot this point (and its kinda hard to judge that point).
As far as amps go, my NAD C352 is great, but recently discontinued. I think the new one, whatever its called, is just a tiny bit different and rather a lot more expensive. I just got hold of an OLD (20yrs +) rotel and its really crisp, but warm, organic and lush (but a bit slow and flabby, which may be its age, either in component drift or older design); I dread to think how good the stuff they're making now is.
CD player wise I use an arcamCD73, and its quite fantastic, but I only get the full goodness of it through my Adam A7s & sub 8; nothing else I have can represent the detail its capable of (B&WDM602 S2s, Eltax Liberty 5+, JBL controls and KEF C40s are all insufficient to various degrees). My other setup has an Awia XC005, which works just as well through the same stuff (but shows its inferiority through the adams). Speaker wise, I just listed the ones I have, and its really a matter of taste; they all have strengths and weaknesses and different characters, but getting ones that can produce what you want to hear is a must, and your choice of speaker will make the single biggest difference to your sound (imo).
I have no clue whatsoever about turntables.
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That's interesting MDV.
I was always told that you should start off with the best CD player (or source) and work from there. I think the theory is that if you've got a good amp and speakers, then you're amplifying a bad signal and it'll never sound good.
Still, I've taken advice from idiots before and could well be talking out of my backside. :lol:
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Well, a great amp and speakers can show how bad a bad source is, but having tried many sources from stock soundcards to mid-high cd players, amps from creative 5.1 cr@ppiness to the nad and rotel, speakers from stock one box cr@p to the adams and most points in between on all three counts and those are my observations
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Hey ToneMonkey do you still have those Celestion speakers you were wanting to get rid of? I still havent got round to emailing KEF about replacement drivers, got sidetracked by holiday and other stuff :oops: If you still have em I'm still interested!
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Afraid they've joined my DJ mate to go with the other 8 he has in his front room (I wouldn't want to be his neighbour). With the baby on the way, things haven't been hanging around long as we're trying to get the house sorted. Sorry dude.
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Rather than suggestions, general advice
Priority of gear, in my experience.
- Speakers are by far the most important thing (along with where you place them)
- Amp is next, with speaker-amp matching being a very big deal indeed
- Source is last - theres enough variation in them that you can have a source good enough that the rest of the setup doesnt do it justice, its probably most important to just not spend so much that you overshoot this point (and its kinda hard to judge that point).
I disagree. Source is always first in importance. There are ratios that should be observed, though. A $20k CD player into a $1k integrated amp is a total waste.
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Afraid they've joined my DJ mate to go with the other 8 he has in his front room (I wouldn't want to be his neighbour). With the baby on the way, things haven't been hanging around long as we're trying to get the house sorted. Sorry dude.
No problems, my fault for being so slow :P
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One important thing to remember:
There are literal MOUNTAINS of sh!t out there masquerading as hifi. Real hifi is like a quality guitar rig: it transmits the essence of the music with minimal "enhancement". The phrase straight wire with gain comes to mind.
The system I recommended is synergistic, sounds great, and in hifi realms, is quite reasonable.
It sounds to me like you are looking for midfi or mass market solutions. Denon, Onkyo, et all, just throw a brick and you will hit about 100 Japanese and Korean manufactures making "audio equipment" that's designed to fit a price point, not necessarily sound good. (I'm not saying there isn't great hifi coming from Japan and Korea, as there is -- Airtight, Zanden, Kondo/Audio Note spring immediately to mind)
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Been checking out what you recommended Ben, and hells they be expensive.
Am I really looking to spend upwards of £1000 for a CD player/amp? Right now I'm really looking for something that I can sit in my living room and say 'that'll do!' instead of getting a loan and being blown away.
Frankly the benefits of a great system can only be appreciated if you have the space to configure it right, sit and listen to it in a proper listening position and give the room at least some treatment.
If you just want something that pretty good to throw in the living room then I wouldnt get anything terribly flash. You'd be hard pushed to hear why a >£1000 system costs what it does if the speakers are just sitting on the floor or a shelf or something, two feet from each other with you in a random place in the (untreated) room with regard to them.
Vice versa, if you setup a mediocre system well, it can sound much better than a very much more expensive system thats just been thrown wherever it will go in the room.
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I find the same. I live in a tiny old house and I think that getting an awesome stereo or guitar set up would be a bit of a waste as at the minute one of my speakers in currently partially hidden by a sofa........ and I'm absolutely terrible on a guitar :?
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Rather than suggestions, general advice
Priority of gear, in my experience.
- Speakers are by far the most important thing (along with where you place them)
- Amp is next, with speaker-amp matching being a very big deal indeed
- Source is last - theres enough variation in them that you can have a source good enough that the rest of the setup doesnt do it justice, its probably most important to just not spend so much that you overshoot this point (and its kinda hard to judge that point).
I disagree. Source is always first in importance. There are ratios that should be observed, though. A $20k CD player into a $1k integrated amp is a total waste.
Thats true, but try a creek cd player through a creative amp and satelite speakers, then try an ipod through a NAD and good-speakers-of-your-choice.
Yeah, thats a wasted source in the first test and a wasted amp and speakers in the second, but on my journey to getting a few decent setups kicking round I've had lots of garbled pick n' mix setups with both good and shite stuff in them. Using everything from an MP3 player, standard PC speakers and amp to the arcam, RME, NAD, Rotel and adams I've found the same thing: if you have any given setup and only change one part changing the source makes the least difference, changing the speakers makes the most and the amp is intermediate. I'm afraid, no matter how much I respect your opinion (which I do; I know what you do for a living), a decree to the contrary wont change my experience (I should say "the results of these tests" really - I conducted it as an experiment, cotrolling all the other variables I could)
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^ I agree. Room is important, and if you mix n match enough, you can cobble together a very good system on a great budget. We'll gonna have to agree to disagree there, and that's all good. I respect your smarts, due diligence, and don't feel that any of your advice has been bad.
However, I interpreted this thread to be, not about the nuts and bolts of hifi/playback but about a set it and forget it, new, system that won't break the bank or marriage license and still sound satisfying to a musician with a picky ear.
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Oh -- almost forgot to add:
The REASON such rules of thumb about source, amp, etc etc being laid out in % and order of importance is to enable systems to be assembled in a reasonable amount of time. You can spend decades chasing after every conceivable combination, and after all is said and done, all the gear you like is discontinued, made into a horrible "Mk IV" version, and you've nothing but a lot of time wasted that could have (and SHOULD HAVE) been spent listening to music!
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I think Ben's suggested some good stuff (and mostly British too).
Don't be afraid to look for used gear, proper hi-fi users are far more geeky than your average guitar player so they tend to look after their stuff and only sell it when upgrading.
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I disagree. Source is always first in importance. There are ratios that should be observed, though. A $20k CD player into a $1k integrated amp is a total waste.
Like in the '70s when it was de rigueur to have a Linn Sondek and a Naim amp and then run it into any old pair of speakers that were lying around. (Hmm... that's not so different from my vinyl set up... Doh!)
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Well, in the '70s, Bose was considered cutting edge, and horns were the rage. Also, there was a much larger DIY spirit, and a lot of dudes built their own loudspeakers.
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^ I agree. Room is important, and if you mix n match enough, you can cobble together a very good system on a great budget. We'll gonna have to agree to disagree there, and that's all good. I respect your smarts, due diligence, and don't feel that any of your advice has been bad.
However, I interpreted this thread to be, not about the nuts and bolts of hifi/playback but about a set it and forget it, new, system that won't break the bank or marriage license and still sound satisfying to a musician with a picky ear.
:drink:
I aint stating facts here, I know that, just 'this is what I think and why'.
As to recommendations - on a budget and bang for buck for me the watchword is Secondhand. Spend £200 on some 10 or 15 year old gear that was good at the time is the best way I know of to get some good sound that doesnt cost the earth.
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Guys this is fantastic. Don't bother with any more suggestions, just keep up the advice.
Ben I wasn't knocking your original suggestion, I just googled the stuff this morning and got a little overwhelmed. This is a whole new level of geekery, and I'm just dipping my toes right now.
I'm not much of an audiophile, this set up will be stuck into a living room and the music to be enjoyed, not so much 'appreciated' it that makes sense.
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For our living room at uni we have a cheap sony cd player/amp into Mordaunt Short MS25is (really cheap 2nd hand).
Coming from a non-audiophile (well to an extent) I think the speakers sound really good, as I said earlier the clarity over cheaper "hifi" is amazing. I dont think I'm going to bother checking out other amps for a more neutral sound, as it seems like a very slippery slope for your cash to fall down :P
edit - you may want to check out some of the package deals on Richer Sounds. I have no idea if they're any good though
http://www.richersounds.com/information/hifisystems
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I initially thought "1k on a hi-fi, don't be daft". However, totting up my current rig which is around 7+ years old (prices approx from memory)...
* Project Audio Turntable (£150)
* Denon amp (£200)
* Marantz CD (£100)
* Sony tape deck (£150)
* B&W speakers (£250)
* interconnects and speaker cable (£100)
TOTAL = £950 (might have been more)
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Guys this is fantastic. Don't bother with any more suggestions, just keep up the advice.
Ben I wasn't knocking your original suggestion, I just googled the stuff this morning and got a little overwhelmed. This is a whole new level of geekery, and I'm just dipping my toes right now.
No offense taken! I didn't take it as you knocking my suggestions -- I'm very well accustomed to sticker shock. When people see one of my hifi systems at home, they usually react like this:
PDT_030
As for advice ... how much time do you have lol? I can go on endlessly on this subject.
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Guys this is fantastic. Don't bother with any more suggestions, just keep up the advice.
Ben I wasn't knocking your original suggestion, I just googled the stuff this morning and got a little overwhelmed. This is a whole new level of geekery, and I'm just dipping my toes right now.
No offense taken! I didn't take it as you knocking my suggestions -- I'm very well accustomed to sticker shock. When people see one of my hifi systems at home, they usually react like this:
PDT_030
As for advice ... how much time do you have lol? I can go on endlessly on this subject.
I have no idea a budget, basically after I get my last paycheck this month and after sorting rent and deposits and bills the left over is to furnish my new house. Doubt I'll be looking at over £300 (~$600) to start though, I think this will be a new obsession, building it up over time and constant upgrades. Holy cr@p what have i started?
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FWIW I just swapped a couple of things round in my setups, and what a difference :D
Previous -
Living room, goes-where-it-can (astride the fireplace, using the big slab of marble as imrpov isolation)
Aiwa XC005
NADC352
B&W DM602
Studio PC, entertainment mode, 5.1 front left and right
Rotel RA312
Eltax liberty 5+
The arcam is also in there, lined into my RME and adams.
I thought I'd try the NAD with the eltaxes, since I just got them and I'm more fussed about the sound in there, where I do more listening AND pay more attention to it.
MUCH better. The lows are tighter, the stereo resolution is better, the sound is more dynamic, everything is more seperated and clear.
Tried the Arcam through it
It almost did it justice. The highs produced had the dynamics and clarity the arcam is capable of, the lows didnt have the depth and punch its capable of, the soundstage was a little shallow, but frequencies were seperated out nicely. It was, however, a better matchup than the arcam, nad and B&Ws, since the B&Ws are so brash and depthless they just cant take what the arcams giving
Speaking of which
The warmer, smoother, denser, sweeter sounding rotel works better with the b&ws than the NAD did. Its not so abrasive and inyourface, its fatter, its lost nothing in depth and seperation because the 602s dont have much to begin with, and its lost nothing in stereo seperation because the speakers are only three feet from each other anyway.
Now
XC005
Rotel RA312
B&W DM602 S2
Still more than good enough to sit around and read to, muck about in the kitchen (I'm not sure I can reasonably said to 'cook' anything - just mix things together and heat them up!), background for social etc
A 'new' good stereo
Arcam CD73
NADC352
Eltax Liberty 5+
Reasonably well set up, detailed, fun to listen to main stereo and still functions as front left and right for the 5.1 off an EMU1616M.
Win all round!
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with £300 to spend on separates plus a turntable you're going to be very lucky indeed to get a setup for that.
I found that a really nice system can be had with the following kind of budget:
* £200 on speakers
* £200 on the amp
* £100 on the cd player
* £150 on a turntable
* £50 on speaker stands
*£100 on interconnects & speaker wire
TOTAL = £800.00 and thats really stripping it back. Any less than that and I think you're wasting your money (imo).
Once you have cash available, go to a shop that will let you hook up various bits of gear and take along some CDs that you're very familiar with - you'll want to listen to the control in the bass end and how extended it is (for starters). I like a bit of Primal Scream's Accelerator to test out seperates then something like Otis Blue or Lady Soul (Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin respectively) for quieter stuff to make sure the rig isn't too brash.
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with £300 to spend on separates plus a turntable you're going to be very lucky indeed to get a setup for that.
I found that a really nice system can be had with the following kind of budget:
* £200 on speakers
* £200 on the amp
* £100 on the cd player
* £150 on a turntable
* £50 on speaker stands
*£100 on interconnects & speaker wire
TOTAL = £800.00 and thats really stripping it back. Any less than that and I think you're wasting your money (imo).
Once you have cash available, go to a shop that will let you hook up various bits of gear and take along some CDs that you're very familiar with - you'll want to listen to the control in the bass end and how extended it is (for starters). I like a bit of Primal Scream's Accelerator to test out seperates then something like Otis Blue or Lady Soul (Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin respectively) for quieter stuff to make sure the rig isn't too brash.
Hmm a trip to a hi fi with my favorite Aereogramme album seems imminent. Plus i need to get myself a new TV as well. Beans and toast for meals but i'll be able to listen to the same 4 vinyls over and over and over.
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I picked up my speakers second hand for only £50. They're chuffin good RTL TDL2's as agreed by a lot of people on here. That'll leave you some money for the amp and CD player. Do you have a DVD player at the minute? That's what I'm using as a CD player. Might do for the time being.
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Most DVD players make TERRIBLE CD players! Why? Because the angle and focal length required for the laser to read a DVD is different than a CD. The best multi-format players (even a discontinued model like an Arcam DV-78 or DV-88) have either two lasers, or a special laser that changes according to format. DVD players are also not designed to natively play back a CD at 16/44.1, thus there is some converting taking place; and with that conversion comes read errors, error correction, and associated jitter. A player like the DV-78/88 mentioned above is designed to play back both CDs and DVDs in a high quality fashion.
A good CD player is still going to be superior for playing back CDs, in my opinion, than a good multi-format, so-called Universal player unless it is VERY good, like an Arcam DV-137/139 or Esoteric UX-1/UX-3/DV-50.
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Oh, I don't deny that. I agree 100%.
I only meant that it could do for the time being if you've only got £300 and are planning on building the system up. For the time being it will play CD's so you could get an amp and speakers and have a working system until you could afford a CD player.
Being honest the DVD player that I'm using is a multi function jobbie and has been working quite good with the stereo. When I have the money and can be arsed, it swill be replaced with a proper CD player and the DVD player will be under the telly replacing the cr@p one that's there at the minute (haven't watched a DVD for over a year now so no immediate rush).
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If you can find a second hand Thorens TD150/160/125 for your turntable that will be a good source (though you will need to get an arm, but second hand most have them). The TD150 is almost a ringer for the Linn - I have one in my old Linn plinth with an Ittok Arm! Look for a second hand NAD Stereo amp (I picked one up on EBay for£45 a few years ago) and see what you can find in second hand speakers. If you pick up a Hi Fi news they have second hand shops in the back and they have some good deals too.