Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: GuiTony on July 16, 2009, 12:10:34 PM
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I have a nice shiny new guitar, handmade by the fair hands of Mr Wez.
I wanted to post some sound clips of this wonderful instrument ... but now I'm all confused.
I've been playing it through a Marshall JTM 60, and an Epi Jr. No fx, just guitar straight into amp. And it sounds awesome. That's how I'd like it to sound if I record and post some clips.
I don't have any mics, or mixers, (nor access to a studio!), but I do have plenty of PCs, a couple of interface devices, and some suitable software. But that's where it gets frustrating ... as soon as I plug guitar into PC, through (eg Guitar Port or my Pocket Pod), the associated software gives me all sorts of amp/cab simulation and fx options ... none of which get close to sounding like the original sound I wanted to capture.
The software changes the sound of the guitar. Ok, so the real-life amp and speakers are changing the sound too, but that effect sounds a lot more natural, pleasant and satisfying than do the software equivalents.
Anyone got an answer, or comments, or suggestions ... ?
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Yep - get a mic!
Personally, for me, that's the best way to record. Get yourself an SM57 - will be the best £80 you spent (apart for the £80 that went towards that lovely blue Wez machine of yours).
You could go down the modeller route - there are plenty of guys around here that use them to great effect. However, if it's the pure tone of guitar through amp that you're after, you need a mic.
Mark.
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For demos and home stuff I go straight through an interface to Guitar rig 3 for high gain stuff and Waves gtr solo for clean and overdrives. Mic's against the cab are going to be best though.
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any of you ever used a shure pg-57? that's what i've got and can't get a decent sound. i'm wondering if its the mic or the software i'm using.
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any of you ever used a shure pg-57? that's what i've got and can't get a decent sound. i'm wondering if its the mic or the software i'm using.
What software are you using? And whats the problem with the sound/tone?
A lot of people dont realise that the tone of the guitar when the mic is, sounds different to where you're stood when you're listening to it.
for example, to get the same representation you'd need your ear to be a few cm from the grill cloth! (NOT RECOMMENDED BTW! :D)
Try listening to it through headphone/monitors and then EQing it from how it sounds recorded.
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Ahhhh, theres such charming naivety in this thread
"It sounds awesome. That's how I'd like it to sound if I record and post some clips."
Welcome to the pit of despair that is audio engineering. Abandon all hope ye who enter here. You will burn in it with the rest of us trying to achieve this simple goal.
ONE OF US!
ONE OF US!
Its way more complex than just getting some stuff. Knowing how to use it is by far the most important thing.
Having a mic is one thing. Fine, you got a mic. You need mics, unless youre going to use cursed and vile modellers.
How you place a mic is ALL IMPORTANT.
The mics dont pickup sound like the ear does either. Youre going to get bigger swings in volume when using lots of bass, the trebles going to be brasher and harsher (99% of the time), the dynamics and note definitions are going to be less clear (mics are slow and clumsy compared to ear drums and cochleas and their contents), so youre going to have to EQ your amp differently, quite probably get extra EQs as well, and quite possibly change the sound to something you dont like in person to get something you do like on record. Also, use less gain, more volume. These are rookie mistakes 1 and 2.
The list goes on and on and on. Expect learning to record guitar to be at least as hard as learning to play it in the first place (and immensly rewarding when you get something you like!).
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Also, use less gain, more volume. These are rookie mistakes 1 and 2.
Huge +1 here.
you need a shocking lower gain than you would usually play live. Really dirty guitar tones just dont come across the same, they end up being mushier and not cutting through.
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A combination of direct recording and a microphone gives the best results.
I use a Palmer Junction which takes the signal from your amp's speaker output and converts it into a very convincing representation of your amp's tone without all the fuss. Use a little bit EQ in your recording software plus a little reverb and you'd never know once it's in the mix.
However, I do like the width/depth that using a mic offers and the natural ambience you get, so if you record the amp with a SM57 at the same time, you get best of both worlds - the punch of the direct signal with the Palmer Junction and the ambience/space with the mic.
<spam> btw, if anyone has an older PC with a PCI card slot, I have a Midiman Delta1010 soundcard here that is fantastic - 19" rack, 48-bit, 96kHz, 8 analogue inputs, 8 analogue outputs, word clock, midi, the lot. My laptop obviously doesn't have a PCI slot and my old PC took a dump years ago. I'd let it go for a bargain price of £100 (cost me over £600 back in the day). I used this to record my band's demos and the results we got were great since you can record 8 seperate signals at the same time and also monitor 8 seperate signals too. </spam>
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I wouldnt say anything is "the best" in a general and catch all way. There are lots of ways to skin the cat. I personally have had very little success indeed taking a DI and a mic signal at the same time, far more with 2+ mics and exploiting the room/space, phase additions and cancellation and reapming
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Ahhhh, theres such charming naivety in this thread
"It sounds awesome. That's how I'd like it to sound if I record and post some clips."
:lol: Actually, I thought it was complete ignorance (on my part), but "charming naivety" sounds so much better
The list goes on and on and on. Expect learning to record guitar to be at least as hard as learning to play it in the first place (and immensly rewarding when you get something you like!).
Oh ... not quite was I was hoping to hear ... but then I was hoping for an "it's easy, all you need is an x, y or z, and away you go" sort of answer. I've been completely disillusioned with PC-software modellers, but them SM57s seem to be £100 ish, and that's a whole lot more than I wanted to spend just to record some simple clips.
Arrrggghhhhh.
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Alas no. Put a n00b in a top class studio and they'll make a shite record. Give a pro 500 quids worth of mic, interface and monitors (and a free DAW, like reaper) and they'll make something decent. As with the guitar, the guy using it is far more important than the kit.
This is good, for attitude and advice:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guerilla-Home-Recording-Studio-Leonard/dp/1423454464/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248212600&sr=8-2
You may find that even that assumes you have more gear than it seems you think currently required, though. IMO, bare bones is a mic (sm57 is fine; it wont do your piano though; you need a condenser for that), an interface, headphones and monitors. With a DAWs standard issue capabilities theres a $%&#ing world of stuff to learn to do with just that.
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he'll need AT LEAST one condenser to mic a piano - I'd be looking at one on the bass end and one on the top end minimum with possibly a third further away for some room ambience to gel the sound together.
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This is good, for attitude and advice:
Thanks - it's now in my shopping basket.
I'm not going to be recording any piano ... guitar & bass only. I've got an interface (or two), I've got the software, and the PC outputs sound to a Bose system, so I'm hoping they'll pass as monitors. I'll watch out for an SM57 to mic the guitar amp and read the book!
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The hifi speakers might do it, if you know them really well and set them up right.
Get a frequency test CD or download minirater and see how linear they are. Move them into an equilateral tringle with your head in your listening position, tweeters firing at your ears. Try loads of different places for them till they sound as linear as possible; different walls, heights and angles, close to the wall, far from it. If the rooms long you have a better chance firing down it than accross. Try and get some absorbtion on reflection points (imagine that a light ray is coming out of the speaker, angle of incidence = angle of reflection, and look at all the places that the sound bounces off anything to get to your ears and put something there to stop it (acoustic foam is best, but other things can have an effect - heavy fabrics pulled tight, cushions, shelves, sparsely populated and slightly angled CD racks, whatever you got: if it will absorb the sound or reflect it away behind you instead of at you then it will help).
Placing speakers is a really big deal - inches can make all the difference.
Get some decent headphones, too. Use them to check panning - unless you've been very carefull placing speakers and treating the room you may not be able to trust the stereo balance of your listening position all the time (equal apparent volume location varies with frequency because of creation of standing waves in the room; can be right or wrong depnding whats played through it). Use isolating phones like HD25s or similar so you can track with them on as well.
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Oh ... not quite was I was hoping to hear ... but then I was hoping for an "it's easy, all you need is an x, y or z, and away you go" sort of answer. I've been completely disillusioned with PC-software modellers, but them SM57s seem to be £100 ish, and that's a whole lot more than I wanted to spend just to record some simple clips.
Arrrggghhhhh.
Check ebay, SM57's often got for under £50 on there.
Also, SM58 work just as well as theyre pretty much the same mic, I just take the windshield/grill thing off. Same sort of price, but if you know someone with one borrow that :D
Its all about experimenting really, with sound engineering a lot of stuff that doesnt make sense theory/technique wise can sound great on record. The main thing is recording, then listening back and re eq-ing stuff. If you can set it up so you can take a DI and re-amp things its a lot easier than getting 'that' take, then there being too much gain or whatever.
Also, i was always told you can add stuff (like gain, reverb etc) much much easier than you can take it away! so bear that in mind too.
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On input I'm a huge fan of too much frequency wise, too little effects wise.
You record with such and such reverb and find later that its in the same place where the snare sounds good and they're on top of each other and theres $%&# all you can do with it, or you change your mind about whatever effect but your stuck with it - better to add it later IMO, unless youre certain of what you want (from prior experience, if you have a system for building your mix).
Frequency wise - loads more on input and take away what you dont want sounds FAR better than too little and trying to amp up whats there.
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Here's an effort. A first effort. A first-take, first effort.
External mic placed in front of my JTM60, mic going into a BR-600. I've added no effects to the guitar, nor to the recording - trying to capture the sound out of the amp as my ears hear it.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=975799
3 clips showing the variation on the sounds of the pickups in my new (Mr Wez) guitar.
I'm really not after comments about the playing, but comments about how the recording sounds would be most appreciated. Tips for how I could improve the recorded sound?
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Well, listening now...
Its rather fizzy and shallow, theres a lot of the room in it, not a terribly nice room either, sounds small, not much guts or drive to the sound. Lower the gain and presence, increase mids and bass (watch that one, probably need to isolate the cab or lift it off the ground), increase the volume to get the speaker moving and distorting (if practicable where you are), try moving the mic more towards the edge of the speaker, and angle it a bit as well, set up a couple of amp/cab height props around the cab and drape a heavy blanket or a duvet or something similar round the cab and the mic, make sure its pulled tight.
The cleans are really nice, no complaints there (but cleans are way easier)
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Oh, the playing was pretty good :)
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Turn it up really loud and snake your lead out of the room and play outside. On track 1 I could hear you acoustically playing the guitar, the only signal being caught should be the amplified one.
Sounds good 8)
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I don't have any mics, or mixers, (nor access to a studio!), but I do have plenty of PCs, a couple of interface devices, and some suitable software. But that's where it gets frustrating ... as soon as I plug guitar into PC, through (eg Guitar Port or my Pocket Pod), the associated software gives me all sorts of amp/cab simulation and fx options ... none of which get close to sounding like the original sound I wanted to capture.
The software changes the sound of the guitar. Ok, so the real-life amp and speakers are changing the sound too, but that effect sounds a lot more natural, pleasant and satisfying than do the software equivalents.
Anyone got an answer, or comments, or suggestions ... ?
Just look at the Zoom H4 N handy 4 track recorder (24 bits) with built in quality microphone : the best money can buy
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1994
PDT_003
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I've got a Zoom H4 - really, really useful piece of kit. I've recorded my band with it, plus I use it home as a scratchpad. One of the best £100 I've spent on gear.
This is me straight into my Martamp Deluxe with my CS Tele. It's using the in-built mics on the Zoom.
http://www.doppelganger-rock.com/Twinfan/Deluxe.mp3
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that's one nice recording : the in-builtl microphones are indeed very good.
may I ask what do you call a "scratchpad" ?
(Still need to improve my bad english ! :lol:)
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Sorry Dr Vic, didn't realise you weren't English!
A scratchpad is a notepad, or something to put ideas down on? In my example, I use the Zoom H4 to hear back how my tone sounds or to compare two guitars through the same amp.
Thanks for the kind words. That particular amp is perfect for recording with. The volume was only around 'loud TV' level.
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Thanks for the tip twinfan !
As for me, the H4N will stay my "only one" device for any home recording situation, as a result I'll use it as a scratchpad or dictaphone for some events as well as my "little home studio", while pushing his capabilities to their max !