Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Chezdon on August 02, 2009, 08:11:03 PM
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Hi guys,
I bought a Miracle Man bridge and Cold Sweat neck and tried it out today. I had a tech fit them for me, replacing the EMG 61/80 set I had - he charged £25.
I've done a few clips which aren't actually that helpful because the sound quality is awful. It actually makes the BKPs sound ok which to me they really aren't. There is basically no gain or sustain anymore, and it's really quite muddy. It's basically still like when it had EMGs but worse.
I've done one vid with my Ibanez which I really love - the bends scream and it has a chug to it. That guitar has DM Breeds in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzFilbN_g4s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYBAvSzCyU8
Now I'm trying to figure out what's gone wrong. I lowered the strings because they had been set up too high when I got my guitar back and that helped a fraction. The pickups are also a lot further away from the strings on my LTD compared to my Ibanez.
Maybe it's been connected wrongly (which I would have no clue about) or maybe this is what they're supposed to sound like and I misjudged? I was worried when the tech handed me my guitar and said it sounded "very bluesy" now. Bluesy isn't what I was after - Zakk Wylde leads were.
I've got a DSL50 and using red channel 1 with a TS9 boost so there should be no problem with the amp/setup.
Sorry for the long post, but I would really appreciate some advice seeming as I've spent over £200 on this.
Thanks.
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If the pickups are low, why not raise them?
They will be very different to EMGs, and sounds like not in the way you were expecting. They will be warmer and less sterile I guess.
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Did you have the pots changed to 500k (or even 1meg)? Using passive pickups with active pots (EMGs use 25k, not 250k pots) will leave you with the sound that you're describing.
You might still have that problem even if the pots are 250k instead of the original 25k. The MM and CS are hot pickups, and low pot values will restrict a lot of what makes them so antithetical to disappointing.
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I can't really tell much from the Youtube quality, but it does seem to have that thick MM bottom end, but there is something wrong with the highs IMO - I think could be attributed to pot value.
What are your settings for this clip? I find balanced mids on the amp work well, other than that an all on 10 sound is still quite pleasing.
I also have mine very close to the strings, I preferred the sound
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Well the tech did all this for £25 so I doubt he did change the pots. I really hope that's what it is because I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to sound like this...
Not really sure how to raise the pickup either... yeah I'm a noob!
I have everything around 5 with the gain around 7.
Even on Red channel 2 with gain on max it still isn't chunky. Gotta be something wrong...unless I've totally chosen the wrong pickup.
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Well the tech did all this for £25 so I doubt he did change the pots. I really hope that's what it is because I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to sound like this...
Not really sure how to raise the pickup either... yeah I'm a noob!
I have everything around 5 with the gain around 7.
Even on Red channel 2 with gain on max it still isn't chunky. Gotta be something wrong...unless I've totally chosen the wrong pickup.
Yeah, If the original pots are in there, you're gonna get an awful sound for sure. What's the guitar made of?
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EC1000 - it's Mahogany I believe.
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If the 25k pots are still in you'll hardly get ANY sound. (I think).
It may be 250k pots, it may be that its 500 and 1M would be better
Most likely, I think you just havent anticipated the amount of low end the MM has, and the guitars probably pretty acoustically bassy/generally dark as well. Amirite?
Anyway; get a screwdriver, raise the screw poles (assuming they're nearest the bridge; if they're nearer the neck, flip it round to start with).
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raise the pickups, replace the pots (preferably connect just the volume) and be sure they are wired correctly. depending on where you are, you may even be able to take it to a forum bro to help you with all that.
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For £25 I doubt you have the right pots then, if he has changed the pots, they probably aren't the best quality, if he hasn't then you need to.
There will be 6 screws in the pickup ring, the corner ones hold the ring down, and the middle ones adjust the height of the pickup, turn clockwise to raise.
I don't think more gain is going to make things more chunky neccesarily, play with the EQ a bit to see what it can do, they have quite a few tones.
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To prove that it is/isnt the pots - wire straight to jack. Sound should be brighter with more attack, but not massively unrecognisably so over a decent 500k pot.
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Bromley, South-East London. Anyone? :P
Thanks Will - I'll give the pickup height a go!
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Pickup height is important indeed. I like most BKPs up close, very close to the strings. Miracle Man wasn't the biggest hit for me either though.
Hope you're gonna figure it out and be happy after all!
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Well I've just raised the pickups and it's made quite a difference. Started to come to life and has given it some chug but still not what I thought I'd get for over £200!
I'm gonna call the tech tomorrow and ask what exactly the schmuck did.
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get the wiring looked at but there is always the chance you chose a set that just wasnt for you, which is why it says this on the main page:
If you are unhappy with any pickup purchased directly from Bare Knuckle Pickups or would like to change it for another model, return the pickup in its original condition by registered mail within 14 days of purchase date and we will either change or refund the pickup. Please telephone to obtain a returns reference as unsolicited returns cannot be accepted. Custom ordered pickups cannot be returned for exchange or refund.
The customer is liable for all costs incurred for returned pickups. Bare Knuckle Pickups Ltd reserves the right to charge a discretionary handling and restocking fee of 15% on any refund.
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Well I had this one made with gold poles so it probably counts as custom! :O
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Bromley, South-East London. Anyone? :P
Thanks Will - I'll give the pickup height a go!
If you are in Bromley then you are just up the road from my workshop (Croydon)
We are a BKP stockist and pretty expert at all this stuff
You are welcome to give us a shout and we'll diagnose the faults and get you sorted out.
Many of the forum users have used us in the past
Give me a call if you want......
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Yep, Jonathan has worked on and built guitars to many guys in the forum and all said excellent things about him and some of these were very experienced players :)
I think it's a good try letting your guitar to him give a look...
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Ok I'm definitely up for that as I don't really want to go back to the shop in Orpington I went to.
If you PM me your number I'll call you tomorrow and maybe drop by on Saturday?
TBH I think I overreacted in my first post - changing the height of the pickups has really changed the sound but I still think there's room for improvement. Cheers.
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+1 on giving Feline a call.
They've worked on several of my guitars (& recently custom built me one too). Work is top notch & reasonably priced. IIRC, they're closed on Mondays: website (http://www.felineguitars.com/about/contact.html)
Don't worry about over-reacting - £200 is a lot of money to spend & be disappointed, but I'm sure this is fixable... :)
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+1 on calling Feline - another satisfied customer here :D
Hope it all works out for you...
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while listening to your clips my wired ears founded the sound of your LTD as much interesting as the one of your Ibanez... The Ibanez seems to be more gainy-ballsy, whereas the LTD seems to be more organic and naturally-agressive, if this does make sense, or at least that how I hear it on U tube...
They are different tones but I didn't found one to be "better" than the other and the MM low-mid-chunk is definetly in the house.
One extra setting and I'm sure you'll be there ! Hope Feline will quickly fix that for you ! 8)
And don't forget to tell us what was the issue with thoses pups. Reading this topic I'd indeed really appreciate the feedback ! Btw can someone tell what are the "best pots" to use for BKPs : 500K or 1M ???
Thanks !
:japon:
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I'd say 500k were the best for BKP humbuckers. I wouldn't want any more brightness personally, which is what 1meg pots would give you...
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+1 on 500k pots being the best match.
I put a Miracle Man into 2 Gibsons, one with the stock 300k pots & the other with replacement CTS 500k pots, it sounds far better with 500k....
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If the 25k pots are still in you'll hardly get ANY sound. (I think).
you'll certainlly get a sound - it will be rather dark though.
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I'll bet it still has the EMG pots in there.
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Definitely won't sound too healthy with 25K pots, way too much of a load for passive humbuckers.
As a general rule it's always a good idea to replace the complete wiring harness that comes with actives, even the jack socket as they tend to use stereo sockets.
Miracle Man humbuckers require 500K pots(or 1meg if the guitar is dark or you feel you want more high end response) and .022mfd caps.
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+1 on Johnathan at Feline
Can highly reccomend Johnathan at Feline guitars. I was there at the weekend and his pride in his work and quality of it is excellent. To add to it he is thoughly nice guy that is great to deal.
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Thanks for the answers !! :D
Dont want to hijack that thread but may I ask what would be the issue with the BKPs if a stereo jack socket is used :?:
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No issue with stereo jacks, I prefer them, a much tighter fit.
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The stereo jack with EMG's is there to close the circuit, just as in a stompbox, so the battery doesn't wear out when it's not plugged in.
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don't get it : can you please put it differently (more simply, in order to help me with my bad english :lol:)
thanks mate !
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I can only make it sound more complicated using words like 'active closed circuit' and 'grounding'.
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don't get it : can you please put it differently (more simply, in order to help me with my bad english :lol:)
thanks mate !
The stereo jack acts like a switch. When a cable is plugged in the circuit is complete and the battery is being used. This can drain the battery even when the guitar isn't being used. When the cable is out of the jack, the circuit isn't complete and the battery is cut off.
These jacks are more common on effects, unplug them and the battery lasts longer. Even if the effect is switched off and you're not playing the battery is still in a circuit and slowly looses charge.
Hope that helped!
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Oh yes thanks guys ! Sorry it was pretty much easy to understand ! :P
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Many of the forum users have used us in the past
that sounded dirty
and yeah, i recommemd going to feline. top notch service, by great people!
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Not much to add here other than another recommendation you go and see Jonathan at Feline. He's done some cracking work on my guitars in the past.
Sounds to me like you may still have the 25K pots in there. If you do though, I'm appalled that anyone would claim to be a guitar tech and not know that this would be an issue!
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You are welcome to give us a shout and we'll diagnose the faults and get you sorted out.
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At £25 it's highly unlikely he's swapped the pots/caps, and if he has, they'll be shite ones. If you're feeling adventurous pop the control cavity cover off and have a look, if thye're small (12mm) pots and it's still got a green cap in there, I'll lay money on being the old active hardware.
Take it to feline and report back.
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The guitar is already with me and the work is done
The pots were still the EMG ones and have been changed to CTS ones (500k)
We had to remove the bridge and install an earth wire connection as EMG equipped guitars do not have one
The knobs were splined to fit the oriental style pots that EMG use , and we had to drill out the splines (there was also a grub screw so the knobs now fit the USA pot shaft size)
We changed the stereo jack to a mono switchcraft one.
Sounds good but couldn't play it extensively as it's a left handed guitar and my range of upside down chords is limited
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The guitar is already with me and the work is done
The pots were still the EMG ones and have been changed to CTS ones (500k)
We had to remove the bridge and install an earth wire connection as EMG equipped guitars do not have one
The knobs were splined to fit the oriental style pots that EMG use , and we had to drill out the splines (there was also a grub screw so the knobs now fit the USA pot shaft size)
We changed the stereo jack to a mono switchcraft one.
Sounds good but couldn't play it extensively as it's a left handed guitar and my range of upside down chords is limited
So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sometimes I think I could do a better job than these guys.... and they're getting paid for it.
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Good to hear what was actually the issue. Now just awaiting the response of the original poster!
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The guitar is already with me and the work is done
The pots were still the EMG ones and have been changed to CTS ones (500k)
We had to remove the bridge and install an earth wire connection as EMG equipped guitars do not have one
The knobs were splined to fit the oriental style pots that EMG use , and we had to drill out the splines (there was also a grub screw so the knobs now fit the USA pot shaft size)
We changed the stereo jack to a mono switchcraft one.
Sounds good but couldn't play it extensively as it's a left handed guitar and my range of upside down chords is limited
So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sometimes I think I could do a better job than these guys.... and they're getting paid for it.
Yup. Its shocking.
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The fact that some people charge when they don't know what the $%&# they are doing amazes me everytime...
Good work Jon.
Let us know what the guy thinks when he hears what BKPs should sound like.
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It really annoys me too!
Thank goodness there are decent good guitar techs like Johnathan! :D
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Glad it's sorted...
This made me laugh though - kinda misinterpreted it on first read:
Sounds good but couldn't play it extensively as it's a left handed guitar and my range of upside down chords is limited
So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sorry chaps! :lol:
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Ummm............. Chezdon???? You got somethin' to say?? :lol:
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Ummm............. Chezdon???? You got somethin' to say?? :lol:
Haha, it seems that the OP hasn't picked it up going by what Jonathan wrote... :)
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Glad it's sorted...
This made me laugh though - kinda misinterpreted it on first read:
Sounds good but couldn't play it extensively as it's a left handed guitar and my range of upside down chords is limited
So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sorry chaps! :lol:
:lol: That's why I used the yellow highlight on the relevant bits!
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So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sometimes I think I could do a better job than these guys.... and they're getting paid for it.
Seems like you should start working with it, even if only for friends and not really for make money...
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So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sometimes I think I could do a better job than these guys.... and they're getting paid for it.
agreed, and i can't even solder. But at least I have the wit not to charge for stuff i can't do, not to talk about stuff I don't know about, and to know that there is easily accessible, readily available information which can be looked up when you don't know. :lol:
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And in the mean time I tech on the side only charging for things I can do in my sleep and learning to do new things till I have them to the same standard before I charge anyone for them...I wonder why I bother; these chumps making n00b mistakes (the reason I got the sound of passives run on 25k pots wrong: I've never made that mistake!) and doing shitee work are an embarrasment and almost certainly doing better off it than me!
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yeah, exactly. I mean, I've switched pickups once (and never switched the electronics), and I know you use different value pots for single coils and humbuckers, and for passives and actives, etc. etc.
there seems to be a big thing at the moment about confidence, like it's more important than actual competence. I disagree completely, and if you ask me misplaced confidence is one of the most dangerous things you can have! :)
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So another example of a "professional" tech who doesn't really know what they're doing. :(
Sometimes I think I could do a better job than these guys.... and they're getting paid for it.
This is the reason why I started my little tech business. I've read so many stories about so-called techs that don't have a clue.
If they get payed for shoddy work, I might as well get payed for proper work.
I wonder what those techs' own guitars are like.
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yeah, exactly. I mean, I've switched pickups once (and never switched the electronics), and I know you use different value pots for single coils and humbuckers, and for passives and actives, etc. etc.
there seems to be a big thing at the moment about confidence, like it's more important than actual competence. I disagree completely, and if you ask me misplaced confidence is one of the most dangerous things you can have! :)
Amen to that!!
Rampant unjustified self-belief = stupidity and narcissism fail
Knowing what youre doing = win
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3 years ago, I sent my guitar to a tech to swap EMGs for duncans
the guitar sounded like total shiteee, had no sustain, was distorting the clean tone, sounded fizzy as hell
I opened it, and he had left the 25k pots
so I took it back to his shop and said he forgot (well, I though he forgot) to swap the pots back to 500k and he also installed the neck pickup with the ring and screws backwards
the asshole got really pissed off (he's usually a very calm guy) and said he was a luthier for over 15 years, and he went to electronic tech school for 5 years
he stated that pot values can't influence the tone, and that neck pickups are supposed to be placed just like the bridge pickup (with the screw coil ponting to the bridge)
he said that I didn't like the pickups, so I was trying to blame him, and disrespecting him as a professional
I already had paid $50 for the shiteeety setup and he charged me extra $40 for new pots claiming he couldn't install the old stock pots, made a very messy soldering job in 5 minutes, gave me the guitar completely detuned and then left the shop
and then, when I got home, I noticed the tone got way better, but it still had a lot of fizz, so I opened the guitar again
the son of #$%@ didn't put a grounding wire! wtf?! he was the same guy who installed those EMGs, so he was the one who took the wire off and he didn't know that a passive guitar needs to be grounded :x
he also bashes all other local luthiers
a complete douchebag :enforcer:
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Rampant unjustified self-belief = stupidity and narcissism fail
Knowing what youre doing = win
My own approach is having a high level of competence, and natural but understated confidence that matches the competence.
I still have the passion for what I do, and 20+ years of experience, but I can't see any use for arrogance in my life
Having a good stock of parts and a great selection of tools to do the job is vitally important if you are a professional
I take every job I do totally seriously
I try to never put down another luthier/tech/whatever, although I may comment on how a job has been done.
Knocking others does not make you seem any better - it gives customers a funny vibe and reflects just as badly on yourself.
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Sorry for the lack of replies! I thought this thread had died a death.
Just got back from Jon's shop in Croydon and I have been so happy with the whole experience.
You all know what's been done as Jon's said and it sounds SO much better. It has a growl to it now and the bends scream, which is what I wanted. The neck pickup sings aswell.
I also brought in my Ibanez. I had been having trouble with the volume pot which seemed to have gone. Jon replaced it there and then (with a superior 500K pot) and it also sounds better than it was before.
So thanks to you all and of course Jon and Ben at Feline.
Also, my apologies to BKP for assuming the worst when I should have checked it out first.
I know where I'll be going for all my guitar-related issues from now on :D
In fact I have just bought a DK2L that I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a pickup change on some time in the future...
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Rampant unjustified self-belief = stupidity and narcissism fail
Knowing what youre doing = win
My own approach is having a high level of competence, and natural but understated confidence that matches the competence.
I still have the passion for what I do, and 20+ years of experience, but I can't see any use for arrogance in my life
Having a good stock of parts and a great selection of tools to do the job is vitally important if you are a professional
I take every job I do totally seriously
I try to never put down another luthier/tech/whatever, although I may comment on how a job has been done.
Knocking others does not make you seem any better - it gives customers a funny vibe and reflects just as badly on yourself.
A good attitude.
I just dislike the incompetent, half-baked cowboys that go blundering around ripping people off. I'm not a ninja with a guitar in playing or teching and repair, but I do know what I can and cant (yet!) do, and am honest about it, especially with customers. I, as you, have confidence in what I know I can do - its the people that have confidence in what they dont know they can do that irk me. Thats a great attitude to go about learning with, but not for selling a consistent and high quality service, as you know as well as anyone!
Is it so bad to hate on people that cant do a job they claim to be able to :lol:
Seriously, though, I think that people that do bad work need to be called on it, publically if needs be. Not out of arrogance, just to encourage competence. Otherwise muppets will go round Devries-ing guitars with impunity and customers wont feel empowered to take them to charge for it.
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Another happy ending.
Great success!
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Another happy ending.
ah, I wondered what Felines 'extra special set-up' was :orcass:
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^ OMG... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Amen to that!!
Rampant unjustified self-belief = stupidity and narcissism fail
Knowing what youre doing = win
:D :drink:
My own approach is having a high level of competence, and natural but understated confidence that matches the competence.
I still have the passion for what I do, and 20+ years of experience, but I can't see any use for arrogance in my life
Having a good stock of parts and a great selection of tools to do the job is vitally important if you are a professional
I take every job I do totally seriously
I try to never put down another luthier/tech/whatever, although I may comment on how a job has been done.
Knocking others does not make you seem any better - it gives customers a funny vibe and reflects just as badly on yourself.
as mark said, that's a good attitude to have. :) I don't have a problem with confidence if it's well-founded, but as you say, arrogance is never a great trait to have, in my opinion, anyway. Though, as mark also said, if someone has done a clearly shoddy job, they deserve to be called on it, as it may prevent future customers from being ripped off.
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In the early 80s I had a Bernie Rico late 70s BC Rich Mockingbird just like Slash uses now. It had a badas fixed bridge and I wanted a Floyd Rose or Kahler trem. So I took it to a 'famous' guitar shop in Denmark Street who fitted a Kahler. Awesome I thought - until I got it home and found it wasn't stright and the strings were not parallel to the neck!!! I was absolutely p***ed off. I toojk it back and they wouldn't reimburse or change it. So I went back that night with a can of petrol and burnt the shop down ........ that bit's not true but I wanted to do it!!! I took the BC to a humble gezer just down the road who had to spend a long time re-installing it. Cost me a fortune in the end.
Said first guy ahs now gone bust ........ Thanks God!!
Btw I've still got the BC ... bought it 1980 for £300 and it has now been valued at £2500!!!! Yay!!
Jim