Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Prawnik on August 20, 2009, 08:14:28 AM
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When I was waiting for my morning coffee to kick in, I got thinking....("oh no, not again!" the chorus roars)
If a guitar with stainless steel frets has a brighter, steelier tone than a guitar with traditional nickel frets, has anyone experimented to see what a guitar with smaller vintage-styled frets sounds like, as opposed to medium frets, jumbo frets, and so on?
Because the vibrating part of a fretted string makes direct contact with the fret, I would think that fret size and metal would make a huge difference in guitar tone.
So has anyone done such an experiment and what were the results?
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You're over thinking things.
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They undoubtedly do affect tone, but I think it's more to do with how they feel.
I find small vintage-style Fender frets very "hard work", and the same to some extent with wide but very low frets. With bigger frets it's easier to get a grip on the string and not feel like I'm fighting the guitar. That makes me play better (albeit still very badly... ) so the effect on the tone is more significant than anything inherent in the fret itself.
I know that's not what you were talking about, you're thinking more of a scientific study..... I'll shut up. :|
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i think it really affects playability more than tone so that swhat i would base fret choice on - but the mass of the fret does certainly have a small affect on sound
there are a few systems around offering higher mass fretwire, bigger tangs or things like that and they generally claim to improve tone and sustain - but then so does everything marketed for guitar
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found it, jonathan linked to this a while back - i think he was interested in trying the idea
http://www.jetfretz.com/
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You're over thinking things.
Maybe, but isn't overthinking things what guitar geeks do? And I would think (there's that word again) that the frets would affect tone more than, some of the things we geeks obsess over, like fretboard materials.
After all, the string doesn't vibrate much at the point where it contacts the fretboard.
Interestingly, I am pretty much indifferent about the feel of fret sizes.
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
100% agree.
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
Doesn't make sense to me: the pickup picks up the vibration of the string. Objects which directly influence the vibrating part of the string (bridge, pick and frets) should have more influence than those things which are indirect contact (fretboard wood and others).
Of course, I may be full of it. That's why I asked if anyone had done an experiment.
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Surely it will have a similar effect to putting a larger / smaler bridge on the guitar, but the difference being about 1 gram or so. So not actually very noticable
I prefer the feel of wider frets, Feline's dunlop 6000s were very to play, whilst I still enjoy wide and low frets too.
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
Doesn't make sense to me: the pickup picks up the vibration of the string. Objects which directly influence the vibrating part of the string (bridge, pick and frets) should have more influence than those things which are indirect contact (fretboard wood and others).
Of course, I may be full of it. That's why I asked if anyone had done an experiment.
It seems to me the frets (and bridge) are just the means of transferring string vibrations into the neck and body. If the frets and bridge aren't anchored to "something" resonant, then string vibrations will stop very rapidly and there's nothing for the pickups to pick up.
As an extreme example, suppose the fretboard was made of cork. The notes would die almost instantly.
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I think it all makes a difference
Big frets do affect tone for various reasons - the mass of the frets affects sustain, tall frets means that you make less contact with the fretboard which can mute tone a bit .
Play a scalloped fretboard and you will find big differences - the notes sing a bit more
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As an extreme example, suppose the fretboard was made of cork. The notes would die almost instantly.
You are probably right. Imagine the effect if the frets were strips of cork. I suspect the effect would be similar.
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
Doesn't make sense to me: the pickup picks up the vibration of the string. Objects which directly influence the vibrating part of the string (bridge, pick and frets) should have more influence than those things which are indirect contact (fretboard wood and others).
Of course, I may be full of it. That's why I asked if anyone had done an experiment.
but isn't that like saying that the body of the guitar also doesn't make a difference what it's made out of? since the strings only come in direct contact with the bridge? the wood is the big part, anything metal should just transfer the vibration into whatever it's touching.
but i don't really know much. listen to the luthiers in here.
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In any given mix of components in a guitar almost anything you change will have an effect. The overall mass of a fret is not quite as important as the length and density of the path from the string to the fingerboard i.e. fret height, width and alloy mix.
Having said that a re-fretted neck may or may not have as good a path as the original frets because the slot width and engagement of the the fret (the slot is compromised by removing frets) may not be quite as good as the original setup; so it's possible to lose more than you might have hoped to gain by a re-fret.
Many Luthiers subscribe to the idea that on any re-fret the frets should be glued in; The Stewmac luthiers newsletters have highlighted a number of different ways of doing this all of which testify to a major improvement in tonal response with a glued fret.
It would be cool if some of the other luthiers who contribute could throw their thoughts in on this as it is an interesting and often overlooked subject.
Cheers,
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i dont know about tonal improvements but i do tend to glue on the refret, just for extra insurance and to reinforce the slot.
the only reason i have heard not to glue is that it might make future refrets more difficult. tbh i have not found that to be enougth to put me off. i always heat frets to help release them anyway - and that takes care of any glue thats commonly used
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I always glue - it ensures a good grip and that the fret is completely solid with the fretboard.
Doing 20 years of repair has taught me that a loose fret that you can really tell is loose can cause all sorts of buzzing that wont go away (learnt this on some recent-ish USA strats)
I too always heat frets to brak glue joints that may exist - or simply the expension and then subsequent contraction makes them easier to pop out.
NOTE : Fender frets from 196(?)-1983 were slid in sideways and must be knocked out sideway to prevent chipping up fingerboards
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well if we want to worry about it - surely the effect of the fret will have a lot to do with the material it is joined to?
to me fretboard choice is more important to the overall tone than fret choice
Doesn't make sense to me: the pickup picks up the vibration of the string. Objects which directly influence the vibrating part of the string (bridge, pick and frets) should have more influence than those things which are indirect contact (fretboard wood and others).
Of course, I may be full of it. That's why I asked if anyone had done an experiment.
but isn't that like saying that the body of the guitar also doesn't make a difference what it's made out of? since the strings only come in direct contact with the bridge? the wood is the big part, anything metal should just transfer the vibration into whatever it's touching.
but i don't really know much. listen to the luthiers in here.
I build guitars myself, so I suppose I could undertake an actual experiment. Still, If someone else has done this before, I'd rather not reinvent the wheel.
In my (limited) experience, body wood is of secondary importance. Scale length, electronics and bridge/saddle material make a bigger difference. YMMV.
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In my (limited) experience, body wood is of secondary importance. Scale length, electronics and bridge/saddle material make a bigger difference. YMMV.
i dont disagree with that, but i do personally put wood choice higher than elctronics. Its the foundation that the rest is built on and needs to be good. I build my guitars for good acoustic tone first in the belief that this will allow greater choice with the electronics and pickups... if it sounds good acoustically then most pickups will sound good in it too. with guitars that dont sound good acoustically you can get yourself into the pickup search trying to find something that works with it
i completely agree about scale length being very important which is why i am using fanned frets on some of my builds.
also wood and scale length are fixed from the start of a build, so you need them to be right. the rest can be tweaked afterwards if need be. so, from a building point of view, i think it makes more sense to focus on things you cant change later
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In my (limited) experience, body wood is of secondary importance. Scale length, electronics and bridge/saddle material make a bigger difference. YMMV.
i dont disagree with that, but i do personally put wood choice higher than elctronics. Its the foundation that the rest is built on and needs to be good. I build my guitars for good acoustic tone first in the belief that this will allow greater choice with the electronics and pickups... if it sounds good acoustically then most pickups will sound good in it too. with guitars that dont sound good acoustically you can get yourself into the pickup search trying to find something that works with it
i completely agree about scale length being very important which is why i am using fanned frets on some of my builds.
also wood and scale length are fixed from the start of a build, so you need them to be right. the rest can be tweaked afterwards if need be. so, from a building point of view, i think it makes more sense to focus on things you cant change later
If acoustic tone is so critical, why don't we all play amplified archtops or flattops? Even an mediocre archtop will sound better acoustically than any solidbody.
Then again, while I have had solidbodies that did not sound impressive acoustically but were The Bomb when plugged in, I have never had a guitar sound good acoustically but bad plugged in.
Yer right in that it is kind of difficult to change body wood or scale length (unless you are building Fender-type bodies and have an extra body or short-scale neck lying around).
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[If acoustic tone is so critical, why don't we all play amplified archtops or flattops?
Feedback
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what phil said :)
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[If acoustic tone is so critical, why don't we all play amplified archtops or flattops?
Flying V acoustics don't sound great
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[If acoustic tone is so critical, why don't we all play amplified archtops or flattops?
Feedback
I dunno, a clean Strat can sound pretty sweet. And we all know about clean Teles.
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The plot is officially lost... :?
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Well, my last comment about clean sounds was to say that, in spite of the fact that an acoustic guitar sounds better played acoustically than any electric, there are still situations where an amplified solidbody electric guitar gets you the sound you want, and feedback isn't as much of an issue.
So I don't think feedback is the only reason we don't amplify acoustics.
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Well, my last comment about clean sounds was to say that, in spite of the fact that an acoustic guitar sounds better played acoustically than any electric, there are still situations where an amplified solidbody electric guitar gets you the sound you want, and feedback isn't as much of an issue.
So I don't think feedback is the only reason we don't amplify acoustics.
What about The Alarm - could that stop you PDT_029
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Well, my last comment about clean sounds was to say that, in spite of the fact that an acoustic guitar sounds better played acoustically than any electric, there are still situations where an amplified solidbody electric guitar gets you the sound you want, and feedback isn't as much of an issue.
So I don't think feedback is the only reason we don't amplify acoustics.
What about The Alarm - could that stop you PDT_029
Well, eleventeen million jazz guitarists have played on amplified archtops and sounded great and clean in the process.
But that isn't the only good clean electric guitar sound, even though a good Gibson archtop will sound better acoustically (and certainly more resonant) than any solidbody.
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Well, eleventeen million jazz guitarists have played on amplified archtops and sounded great and clean in the process.
But that isn't the only good clean electric guitar sound, even though a good Gibson archtop will sound better acoustically (and certainly more resonant) than any solidbody.
An Archtop is different to an acoustic with a pickup - that's the sound I was meaning. I have a very nice Ibanez GB10 and it is a great sound, but an acoustic with a pickup never seems to get the tone that the guitar gets through a good mic.
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Well, eleventeen million jazz guitarists have played on amplified archtops and sounded great and clean in the process.
But that isn't the only good clean electric guitar sound, even though a good Gibson archtop will sound better acoustically (and certainly more resonant) than any solidbody.
An Archtop is different to an acoustic with a pickup - that's the sound I was meaning. I have a very nice Ibanez GB10 and it is a great sound, but an acoustic with a pickup never seems to get the tone that the guitar gets through a good mic.
They don't make archtop acoustics?
Anyway, to reiterate my point: if "the better the acoustic tone, the better the electric tone" were true, then why not just use amplified acoustics?
I am really not trying to be a pain here, for years I believed the formula.
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Surely its something to do with the different acoustic sound of an acoustic Vs a Les Paul.
Acoustic construction doesn't suit every style, but an electric guitar can be constructed with wood with a good acoustic tone.
I don't really see what you are getting at though :?
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Anyway, to reiterate my point: if "the better the acoustic tone, the better the electric tone" were true, then why not just use amplified acoustics?
Because electrics were designed to be amplified as their primary purpose and as a result we've learned how to use that 'different' sound. We could all use amplified acoustics but they won't sound like the rock n roll records we love. When comparing solidbody electrics, acoustic differences do make a difference.
Asking us all to play amplified acoustics is like asking a Ferrari driver to take it across Will's farmland :lol:
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They don't make archtop acoustics?
Anyway, to reiterate my point: if "the better the acoustic tone, the better the electric tone" were true, then why not just use amplified acoustics?
I am really not trying to be a pain here, for years I believed the formula.
That is comparing apples to oranges. The Ferrari analogy given was quite good :D
Even though acoustic guitar sounds 'better' played acoustically versus an electric played acoustically, luthiers strive for a good acoustic tone on electric guitars too. After all, all the pickups do are pick up that and add their own tonality on them. Better acoustic tone tends to translate to a better electric tone.
Good acoustic tone requires good quality wood and other good materials, of course.
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found it, jonathan linked to this a while back - i think he was interested in trying the idea
http://www.jetfretz.com/
According to the video they make your guitar sound like tinny processed overeffected shitee.
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The solidbody electrics I build usually end up sounding decent acoustically, although I don't build guitars specifically with acoustic tone in mind.
One of them is almost as loud and resonant as a flattop. It sounds good electrically, or at least I like it.
The one exception sounds mediocre acoustically, very thin and tinny, even with .011 strings and tuned down a half step. Plugged in, it makes me sound like Slash. It also Creedence, Derek and the Dominoes and countr-ee musikk.
Go figure.
That is comparing apples to oranges. The Ferrari analogy given was quite good :D
Even though acoustic guitar sounds 'better' played acoustically versus an electric played acoustically, luthiers strive for a good acoustic tone on electric guitars too. After all, all the pickups do are pick up that and add their own tonality on them. Better acoustic tone tends to translate to a better electric tone.
Good acoustic tone requires good quality wood and other good materials, of course.
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If you have an electric guitar that has a great acostic sound you often are forced to rethink your choice of pickups that you would usually use- hot pickups can prove way too lively if you are playing in a loud live environment and you may well get the response you need from underwound pickups .
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If you have an electric guitar that has a great acostic sound you often are forced to rethink your choice of pickups that you would usually use- hot pickups can prove way too lively if you are playing in a loud live environment and you may well get the response you need from underwound pickups .
Interesting point. My more acoustically lively builds do seem to like underwound pickups, although none of them have anything like metal pickups. For that matter my Gibson 335 studio is pretty lively and it came from the factory with Dirty Fingers, which are pretty hot.
Still, you do have to be careful with that guitar, and sometimes keep the volume controls down for it to sound its best.