Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: AndyR on September 11, 2009, 09:43:52 AM
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I'll put this here rather than in "Tech" cos it's got nowt to do with geetars :lol:
I wonder if any of you chaps could settle a thing in my mind?
Scenario: Occasional light fitting (one that plugs into a wallsocket), that has a dimmer control - some sort of variable resistor, I assume.
Question: Does the appliance actually use less energy if you turn the dimmer down? ("Less energy" as in "saving-the-planet" and "saving-my-pennies")
Human intuition says "yes" to me, but... is intuition correct in this case?
I can remember V = IR, so I know that the thing will draw less current if you turn it down, but I can't remember any other equations...
Will reducing the current also reduce:
a) The amount of money clocking up on the bill?
b) The amount of energy that must be generated at the other end to run the appliance?
And, are these two actually the same thing?
... I've probably opened a can of worms here :lol: (:twisted:)
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I'm no sparkie, but I assumed that the resistor would send current to earth? That would mean the same current draw, just dissipating it to another location...
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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070808215433AADEaIs
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Resistors dont divert current to earth, they inhibit its flow with materials that have higher resistivity.
Its power thats the concern anyway, and thats I^2R or V^2/R, in watts, which means that the power draw with twice the resistance but the same emf is half. In general power is work done (energy converted from one form to another) divided by the time taken, so obviously using a dimmer will reduce the rate of work of your lights (or whatever else)
An explanation:
With a resistor in place the total current of the path is reduced (if in series), so if you start with
+------Light bulb------ -
With V and R
I=V/R
P=I^2/R=(V/R)^2/R=V^2/R
and go to
+----resistor----light----- -
with an addtional R that we'll say is equal to the first for simplicity/illustrative purposes then you get
I=V/2R...blah blah blah....P=V^2/2R, P1=2P2
Yeah. The pot should reduce actual power consumption of the appliance. The EMF inhibited still has to go somewhere though, and that is heat in the resistor, so maybe not, all told.
Rates are measured in KWh, so kilowatt values over an hour, so a 1KW appliance running for an hour is 1KWh, so tarrif and standing periodc charges allowing what you spend is proportional to how much power you draw.
How much youre saving the planet is debatable. Putting dimmers on lights while America still exists and does what it does is kind of like turning up to car crash with a dust pan and brush ;)
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Dimmers are no good with the low energy bulbs we now have to use, so I'd just swap bulbs. Much easier!
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Dimmers are no good with the low energy bulbs we now have to use, so I'd just swap bulbs. Much easier!
That is a much better idea. Do they still have that horrible dull yellow light though? Stupid low energy electron recombinations.
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They are a bit yellow I guess. Doesn't bother us though.
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Dimmers are no good with the low energy bulbs we now have to use, so I'd just swap bulbs. Much easier!
I believe heavy duty \ industrial 100w bulbs are still legal?
NRG saving one sgive me migraines :(
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Can't offer anything scientific, but I have noticed when you turn dimmers down they usually hum or buzz. Which gives the impression that something is working harder. And it's bloody annoying.
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Can't offer anything scientific, but I have noticed when you turn dimmers down they usually hum or buzz. Which gives the impression that something is working harder. And it's bloody annoying.
I believe thats ones that switch on and off.
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They are a bit yellow I guess. Doesn't bother us though.
I had them for a couple of years in my previous place because the wiring was done by a chimp with a soldering iron and bulbs blew once every few days (basically whenever the guy downstairs switched anything on). I got used to it, but I was really pleased to get back to decent white light of real bulbs.
One thing I'll give them - they last forever. Never had one break on me.
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You can get daylight balanced energy saving bulbs that give off a more natural blue light, however they're not that common and more expensive.
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Nice to see there are some kindred spirits here :D
The reason I ask is because, as a temporary measure, we have such a fitting in the (windowless) kitchen off of our office (the strip light blew while I was on holiday apparently, and instead of replacing it, tech support have brought us one of the lamp stands from the training room as a stop-gap :roll:).
Now, someone keeps turning the bloody thing down, I'm guessing, for "energy saving reasons". I can live with it, but I don't like it that much - I loathe "low" or "yellow" electric light when I'm trying to do something. I'd rather have (even extremely low) natural light, or good old "f@ck off 100W" bulbs, anything else I feel like I'm straining my eyes and can't see properly (sometimes gives me headaches as well, Will).
Before I start any battles, though, I thought I'd see if could find out if we actually were saving any energy by having "seduction lighting" in our office kitchen (in comparison to the as yet unfixed strip light... I know the answer's no, but that's another matter :lol:)
Elsewhere, I am getting used to these cr@ppy low energy things - but I do not like or approve of them in any shape or form :lol:
I'm not actually that interested in "saving the planet", by the way, I don't think we can without a good bit of culling. I'm more of a "there are finite resources, once we've used them up, they'll be gone... duh??" kind of guy. Reducing the amount of energy we use as individuals isn't going to change what's coming, it'll just slow the arrival down a bit...
My wife will tell you I'm actually quite, er, "anti-green" - but in my defence, we don't own or drive a single car, or buy newspapers/magazines, we don't have a dishwasher, we prefer jumpers to turning the heating up, and I personally haven't flown or been abroad (or intend to fly or go abroad) in something like 15 years... All the things one is meant to cut down on to reduce one's personal carbon footprint - I don't bluddy do anyway!!!
... nah, my question was for pure and higher motvies - gathering ammo for a potential office feud :lol:
EDIT: This came while I was waffling:
You can get daylight balanced energy saving bulbs that give off a more natural blue light, however they're not that common and more expensive.
That's interesting, I'm a part-time artist as well (not done much for a few years, though), and seeing as my spare time is often at night, one NEEDS "daylight" bulbs otherwise you can't get colour right... I discovered the other week that the missus had used up my last daylight bulb a while back for her desklight (she didn't know what a "daylight bulb" was) - I was wondering whether such a thing existed or was even possible under these new regulations...
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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070808215433AADEaIs
CLASS!!!
Just followed this link.... thanks... :D
For those, like me, slow to follow links:
"Early dimmers worked using a variable resistor. They actually used more energy when the lights were dimmed than when they were on bright. They also heated the wall up.
Modern dimmers work by switching the electricity off and on thousands of times per second. They use much less energy than the older dimmers. With these modern dimmers you will use less energy than if the lights were on bright.
They call this switching pulse wave modulation. They dim the lights by making shorter pulses with longer gaps between them."
(Of course, I realise these are "internet facts", but that's good enough for me :lol:)
Now, a new question - the dimmer for this beastie is a little "foot-pedal" thingy with a slider on it. It is warm, but it is emitting a jolly little buzzing noise...
The second point (buzzing) makes me think it's a modern dimmer?? Is that a reasonable assumption folks? (Obviously, I want it to be not-modern, so it's not actually too good for my purposes...)
Oh well...
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Did you know that it's now illegal to make or import 100W lightbulbs in/into the UK. Came through the other day.
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Did you know that it's now illegal to make or import 100W lightbulbs in/into the UK. Came through the other day.
WTF!? ridiculous. 60w makes me strain my eyes and gives me a headache. Its all about the dimmer switch in the bedroom.
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Fascists!!
(I'm not sure if that's strictly true, but it's what the hippies would've said when I was back at Uni...)(actually, it's probably the same bloody hippies that have decided on this cr@p!! :lol:)
And I was wondering earlier whether what we had here was a new market for Tim -
Bare Knuckle Lightbulbs - hand wired in the UK (like yer granny used to, etc)
Vintage - 60W
Vintage Hot - 100W
and for the true connoiseurs:
Vintage Fecking Useless - 40W or under
All come with choices of:
Pearl, Clear, or Daylight (Blue filter)
Bayonet or Screw fitting
But if it's illegal to make the ones I'd buy... I don't think I'll bother suggesting it :(
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You forgot contemporary
- 200W Halogen
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You forgot contemporary
- 200W Halogen
Yeah I was wracking my brains, but I don't actually know enough about light bulbs, I just know wot I like - 100W, Clear... and I'm not gonna be able to get them ever again... :(
Who do I blame for this travesty? Is it "Europe" (that Hunter bloke, bet he's behind it :lol:), or our fine, fine leaders, or some other no-name-bar-steward or bar-stewardess?
I'm starting to feel as wound up as I did when the fecking smoking ban thing came in - sooner or later us silent majority types are gonna get fed up and start, er, I dunno, having strong words with someone...
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Didn't they invest a load of money into developement, nobody likes the new bulbs, so to get their money back they need to make us buy them?
Another for Tim: Handwound Double strip lights
:D
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Instead of a dimmer switch, you can wear sunglasses indoors. Hey presto, no nasty buzzing.
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if you can all wait for 2025... LED bulbs will be powerful enough for home lighting then... according to wiki (I was really bored at the time!!!)
as someone who knows way too much on green stuff, apparently a quarter of your leccy bill is lighting, other good way to save the quids is Grade A or better fridge and freezers, preferably combined, those things are on 24/7!!!
and don't stick them near radiators if you can, and don't leave it stuffed with 2 year old food since it has to work harder
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...... while America still exists .....
Wow. Just wow.
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Copperhead, I think his comment was fair in context.
I can understand why America doesn't want to join any of these Carbon emission treaty things, but while Europe has signed it, and the US is quite a big burner, then, are these cr@ppy energy saving lights going to do much?
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Good luck with the carbon emission theory. :D
Last time I checked, all life forms on the planet were carbon based.
Remember the ozone hoax? I live in the SW US where supposedly by now we should have been destroyed by direct solar ignition.
Oh there it is, page 26 in the paper. Ozone holes now are theorized to have been related to sun spots.
Wasn't R-12 after all. So now we have AC units that are less efficient, don't cool as well. All at a cost of billions, paid for by every one of us. Are they going to take back the R134a now? Nope.
This just in. Know what leaks more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than all the cars and power plants in the US and China combined?
Mature trees that have stopped growing. (Don't know if I believe this, but the illustration is that there are plenty of unprovable "theories" on both sides of the issue) That's right. Want to save the planet? Charge into the old growth forests and harvest the mature lumber. Plant new trees as a young growing tree is super efficient at taking carbon out of the atmosphere and turning it into wood.
Yet all these "green" companies want you to go "paperless" because they love the planet... bullshiteeeeeeee!!!
What takes more energy? Print 100000 sheets of paper on a printing press, or have 100000 customers fire up their home PC and inkjet printer and print one sheet......
As any good cop knows, follow the money.
It's all about transferring the cost to YOU and I.
The politics of environmentalism since the 1970's has always been about extracting money from the populance, a "hidden" tax on the sheeple.
In the 1970's, we were going into the next ice age because of the pollution of the plastics industry...
Wipe yourself with a spotted owl, attacks on the forest products industry are all BS and they get away with it because we let them.
Now we all hafta get battery powered cars. So we're going to plug them in and charge them at home with the electricity that's been 80% produced by burning fossil fuels.... 'cause here in Barackistan we can't build any more nuclear power plants.
But Iran can. And North Korea. And Syria.
We're going to build a gazillion windmills, even though every one of them we have now is subsidized because between the insane cost of construction and maintenance on them, they don't even come close to paying for themselves.
It all so much cr@p, and plenty of people are fed up with it. 18%+ unemployment magnifies it. Number one population segment for unemployment in the US is black males between the ages of 18 and 26. 30%+ by some reports. How's that hope and change working out for ya?
America is a young country. Borders change. Lots of people very upset, but you won't hear a peep of any of this on MSNBC....
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[snip]...but you won't hear a peep of any of this on MSNBC....[/snip]
That's because all the folks with tinfoil hats watch Fox News :P
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LOL at the rant :D
You must have missed the point where I said I understand why America hasn't signed to the Kyoto (I think?) stuff. I do agree with most, if not all of your points
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LOL
Not ranting or angry at all. Not remotely an US vs THEM thing.
The point is, just because a govt. or a "world" committee or org. says something is true.... I mean they line up all their scientists, buy off the media heads, and how hard is it to railroad all this garbage through? Are all sides of an issue presented fairly? Throw in a little nationalism, patriotic pride; WE are BETTER than THEY are because WE made this law...
Hello, didn't this happen last century?
I don't give a rat about MSNBC or FOX or any of them, I don't even own a television. By choice. It's all part of the deal, you sit in front of the box eight hours a day, you're being programmed, influenced and believing in rubbish you wouldn't give the time of day to if presented to you in the flesh, all in the name of "entertainment". There is no news media in this country, it's all part of the entertainment industry. Pure fantasy.
We think we're so much smarter, we're the cleverest generation ever because we have TECHNOLOGY.
Hahahhahaha no one knows how to think anymore.
Read some of the writings of the true Fathers of the American Revolution. The 250 or so men who wrote the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights... Amazing that they could form complete sentences without being raised on educational TV, right?
So in American schools we teach revisionist history and mention 3 or 4 names of the Revolutionary period.
No children today in America have ever heard about Benjamin Rush, or Thomas Paine for example, nor have they ever read Common Sense....
Brilliant men and there are of course many many others, but we know everything today because we have the internet....
I collect and buy and sell antique military firearms. I have a rifle that was mass produced in the late 1800's, the Springfield Trapdoor rifle. Here is a weapon that can shoot very accurately, nearly a mile. The precision of the manufacture is amazing. They tested random samples off the assembly line daily. These rifles are still used in black powder competition today. Designed, mass produced, still shooting over 120 years later without computers or even electricity for that matter.
We're so smart. Cow farts are killing the planet.... that's a good one.
Wake up. Don't lie down and let the govt. go through your pockets and put you in fetters. Put up a fight and make some noise at least.
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Like the way you think Copperhead... I'm roughly in the same space as you :D
I tend to give governments a little more leeway though (I don't let them off the hook, mind you) - I regard them more as a symptom than a cause. It's the "vocal minorities" that p1ss me off- the ones that "steer" what the media thinks it ought to say and what govts think they ought to do... and the cr@p they're talking up is often not based entirely on knowledge, but on hearsay they've accpeted without thinking...
In many ways, I think that none of us is innocent of this. It seems to be human nature to grasp at a half-understood thing we overheard that supports our own particular prejudice, and then to cram it down some other poor b@stards throat...
Er, I'm looking at why I started this thread :oops: - I was looking for some sort of "scientific" support, half-baked or otherwise, for the way that I want the light operated in our office kitchen :lol:
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I'm roughly in the same space as you :D
Imagine that. A different culture, a continent and an ocean apart, and we can agree on something! And me being a filthy American. :lol:
I think you should get a bank of massive amplifiers and light your office from a row of Hotplates set on "LOAD" :D