Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: kbambury on October 11, 2009, 08:29:27 PM
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Hi Guys,
apologies that my first post on the forum is a plea for help but I'd be really grateful if anyone out there has any useful advice.
I wired my newly aquired Riff Raff bridge (4 conductor) into my SG Special Faded yesterday and was happy with how it went,... that is until I plugged in and realised that the volume of the bridge is seriously lower than the neck and neck/bridge combined.
I'm completely new to wiring guitars but was hoping that it was going to be straightforward.
I removed the stock pickup and after fixing in the new covered Riff Raff, soldered the black/bare wires to the back of the neck pot (where the braided cover of the old pickup was soldered). I then soldered the red wire to the bridge volume lug which is also soldered to the capacitor joined to the bridge tone.
Finally having shortened the cables slightly I resoldered the white and green wires together before taping (insulation) them together and out of the way.
So what I thought was going to be a straight forward job has turned into a right melon scratcher.
I'm thinking that I've either mucked the grounding or soldering up or alternatively have somehow wired the bridge out of phase.
Please HELP!
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Welcome, don't worry about first post is a cry for help :D
It does sound like a phase/tap issue. Unfortunately I only ever go for 2 wire connections, so I'm not too familiar with the colours - I'm sure someone will pile in with the right colours (it's Monday morning here in the UK, need to give 'em a chance to get to their desk, make a coffee, think about working... and then come on here :lol:)
Alternatively, do a search on this forum - this thing comes up every now and then.
When you've got it going, you'll love it, my RRs are in an SG Special Faded :D
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Simple question..... being simple myself, it's always a good place for me to start.
Have you physically raised the pickup towards the strings?
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Hi Guys,
thanks for the replies, really appreciate you getting back to me. I have raised the pickup as close to the strings as possible without getting string buzz but there was no joy unfortunately.
I did run a few searches through the forum and there was one similar issue (all be it on a different guitar/setup - tele I think) where the suggestion (which worked) was to reverse the hot and ground wiring. As only one pickup was being replaced on this particular guitar, wiring it with the red to lug and black/bare to ground had actually wired it out of phase.
Whilst willing to give this a bash, I thought I'd obtain further information first to ensure this will ulitmately lead to a positive result.
Thanks once again!
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If the sound is weedy and thin compared to the other humbucker then I'd guess it's either out of phase or one of the coils isn't wired right? Try tapping the pole pieces with a screwdriver first on one coil then the other, if one set of pole pieces is much quieter than the other then maybe you've accidentally wired it split-coil so you're only getting a single coil working.
Very often the easiest way to proceed as a newbie is to entirely unsolder all the wires and start again from scratch making sure you really follow the wiring diagram accurately. It's just easier to rip it out and start over rather than trying to trace a wiring error!
Good luck with it, post sound clips when you get it fixed!
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Actually, this might be helpful - test if either coil is open circuit (broken coil wire).
Plug a lead into your amp and try touching pairs of pickup wires onto the tip and sleeve contacts of the jack plug. Eventually you should find TWO combinations of wires that produce a single-coil output when you hit the strings or pole pieces. If you only get output from ONE combination then one of the coils is broken.
If both coils are working then refer back to your wiring schematic, check that things like ground wires are soldered firmly and make sure that the junction where you joined the two coils together makes a good solid connection. Check for bad solder joints, take your time and don't be in too much of a mad rush to get the guitar cranked through your amp or you'll rush it and do a bad job.
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Out-of-phase problems only occur when you combine pickups, so it's not a phase issue.
I'm thinking that the middle position sounds OK because you're mainly hearing the neck pickup.
I would suspect a few things:
* selector switch isn't working correctly - check the contacts are clean and connecting in all 3 positions
* poor connection of the bridge pickup to the selector - check the soldering at the switch
* poor ground for the bridge pickup - check the soldering on the back of the pot
* bad connection either into or out of the volume pot - check the soldering on all lugs
* bad connection in the coil tap wiring - check the soldering on the green/white connection
If you have a multimeter you could check the DC resistance of the pickup too.
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Out-of-phase problems only occur when you combine pickups, so it's not a phase issue.
... or when the two coils of a humbucker are wired in the wrong phase which may well be the issue here
I can't see a BKP wiring diagram on the site, anyone know the exact colour code used in these humbuckers?
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Out-of-phase problems only occur when you combine pickups, so it's not a phase issue.
... or when the two coils of a humbucker are wired in the wrong phase which may well be the issue here
I know the BKP wiring code, and the poster has it wired up correctly ;)
Red = Hot
Black = Earth
Green/White - splits
:D
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From the main site FAQ page:
What is the Bare Knuckle Four conductor colour code?
Black = start of screw coil
White = finish of screw coil
Red = start of slug coil
Green = finish of slug coil
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I blame Gremlins
Sneaky little beggars, they creep inside your guitar and rewire it before you plug it in
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Thanks again guys.
The pickup is covered so I'm unable to tap the contacts on the individual coils within the humbucker but I'm reasonably confident that I've followed the wiring diagram correctly.
I made sure that I created a detailed drawing of the previous setup and when the old pickup was removed, soldered the black/bare to the location of the original pickup's braided sheild and the red to the neck pot lug - again the location of the original pickup's hot wire.
Whilst soldering the above the switch grounding (to the back of the neck pot) wire detached itself so I re-soldered that joint also but this was all the soldering that was done.
So overall I'm hoping that one or a combination of these new joins are causing the problem.
In answer to Twinfan's post, the middle position does sound OK but I'm guessing that it's 90/10 in favour of the neck - just to quantify the drop off in volume, with boths guitar pots on 10, the brige pickup needs my amp (Marshall Vintage Modern 50W 2x12 combo) to be set to around 4-5 to mimic the volume of the neck when the amp is set to just barely on.
From the suspect list, I reckon the last 3 points are more likely than the first 2 as I didn't really touch the selector switch connections (except for the ground wire as mentioned above):
* selector switch isn't working correctly - check the contacts are clean and connecting in all 3 positions
* poor connection of the bridge pickup to the selector - check the soldering at the switch
* poor ground for the bridge pickup - check the soldering on the back of the pot
* bad connection either into or out of the volume pot - check the soldering on all lugs
* bad connection in the coil tap wiring - check the soldering on the green/white connection
Is checking the DC resistance of the pickup the only thing I can check with a multimeter to help identify the issue or are there other avenues I can pursue.
My main concern now is that being reasonably new to soldering, if I have created a bad join(s) (I followed all soldering advice and thought they looked reasonably good) then I'm unlikely to rectify this by unsoldering and trying again. I'm also fearful that I risk damaging components as well while attempting to get better joins.
I'm guessing I might have to concede and seek the assistance of a pro :(
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As a last ditch effort, it's worth desoldering just the main hot and ground wires and trying these directly onto the output jack. That'll tell you if the pickup is really working, if it is then just run through and look at the wiring to the pots and switch.
Learning about guitar wiring and humbucker wiring especially takes a while, give it another shot. You're unlikely to damage anything more than a £2 potentiometer unless you go hacking away like a maniac. And you may just have the pleasure of not paying a repairman to do a simple job.
I'd also temporarily bypass the coil tap switch by joining the two wires together so you have a stock humbucker for now.
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I wouldn't rul eout checking things you haven't directly changed. The heating of other local components could 'break' an exisiting good joint.
I personally would re-solder everything I'd touched first. If I still had a problem then I'd re-solder the main signal path: output from bridge volume pot (centre lug), selector switch etc.
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I'd also temporarily bypass the coil tap switch by joining the two wires together so you have a stock humbucker for now.
He's not using a split matey - read post number 1 again ;)
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OK Frank, you've spurred me on - the pleasure of not paying someone else (nothing against pro repairers by the way just would like the satisfaction of doing it myself!) is the inspiration I need!
Two questions then:
a) How might I remove the old solder to ensure I get a new clean join - I'd bought soldering wick (desoldering braid) but didn't seem able to get the old solder onto the braid. I also managed to create a gouge in the iron tip whilst trying to master this :(
b) With regard to the green and white wires, I stripped back the sleeves back a couple of mm and twisted the two together before running solder onto the twisted wires. When I was happy this was done, I wrapped them insulation tape - is this correct?
Thanks again
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read post number 1 again
Blimey, I'm supposed to read other people's posts now?
hehe, my bad
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I never use desoldering braid, I prefer desolder pumps when I'm working on guitars. And as long as you got the twisted wires hot enough for the solder to run easily onto them, the joint should be ok but it's worth checking if you have a multimeter handy.
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Well I've got a pump as well but didn't seem to get very far with that either.
Excuse the newbie questions but what settings should I use on the multimeter to check the joint between the green and white and of course all the other joins too!
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Also, I've just read elsewhere that lead free solder is pretty pants - which is the only type of solder I could get from Maplins.
Where can I get full fat solder from?
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Well if you've soldered two wires together then there should be no measurable resistance between the two ends so it's just a matter of finding the other ends of the wires and putting the meter across.
That's not always possible with pickups though so you're probably better off desoldering the hot wire and measuring the total resistance across the pickup from the end of the hot wire to where it's grounded. Check the manufacturer specs for DC resistance but remember those values are only approximate so as long as it's within a few kOhms then you've made a good solder joint. Jiggle the soldered wires a bit, if the needle doesn't kick then your joint is holding ok.
Oh yeah, I'm not a fan of lead free solder either. Try your local Maplin store or similar for the proper stuff.
woah, not reading posts again, Maplin only do lead free? shop online!
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Cheers Frank.
I appreciate this must be getting painful for you but if you can bear with me a little longer, which setting is best to use on the multimeter - although mine has a digital readout, it has a rotary dial with numerous settings available?
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If you're measuring across the pickup use DC resistance in kilo Ohms
You won't damage anything if you use another setting, really all you're doing is making sure that there's a continuous circuit through both the coils. The voltage that the meter sends through the circuit to test it is way too small to do any harm and if you use another setting on the meter then nothing at all will happen.
Also, don't worry about which way round you connect the test probes, the pickup is just a resistance so it won't do any damage connecting the red probe to the ground wire. Truth is you can only damage a guitar with a multimeter by throwing the multimeter at the guitar.
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OK, I'll give that a crack.
Again having read around, I might have created a dry joint or two because although I was trying not too, at times I think I was melting the solder with the iron rather than heating the component/wire - particularly with the pots I was worried about burning them out so didn't want to keep the iron tip on it for too long.
Another stupid question but with a desolder pump, I'm guessing it's a case of priming the pump and holding it in position whilst melting the old unwanted solder. Then once melted pressing the pump tip into the pool of solder and pressing the button to suck up the old solder.
Does the fact that the pickup is working but with a reduced volume suggest that the more likely suspect joint is on the grounding rather than the live?
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The suspect joint could be anywhere...
That's exactly how you use the pump by the way, and I feel your pain with the Maplin solder. It's awful :(
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Alright, cheers Twinfan!
I shall have a pop at systematically removing each of the new solder joints I created before re-soldering hopefully with an improved technique.
Worst case scenario and I get no further then I guess I'll have to take it to a man that knows - Jonathan at Feline isn't too far away from me so if necessary I'll drop it along to him!
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I was melting the solder with the iron rather than heating the component/wire
argh nooooo!
heat the component, let the solder melt onto it
practice on an old jack plug or something, at least it'll use up that cr@ppy Maplin solder
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In many years of modifying guitars, I've only ever had one where I completely gave up and sent it to a tech. Even that one I guess I could have sorted myself with a complete re-wire but I'd had enough by that point!!!
Take your time, get some nice clean and shiny joints, and you should hopefully fix the problem :)
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Ok lads, I'll keep you posted - thanks once again!
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By the way, that last post took me from being a lowly Straweight to a mighty Junior Flywieght - there's always a silver lining :lol:
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This illustrates a good rule of fixing things - have a try at doing it yourself as long as you're sure you can't a) injure yourself or b) damage anything worse then it's already damaged.
Fixing guitars and amps is nowhere near as difficult as the repairmen would have you believe, get stuck in.
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Fixing guitars and amps is nowhere near as difficult as the repairmen would have you believe, get stuck in.
I don't think that statement is strictly true, especially with amps. If you don't know what you're doing you could make things worse and also give yourself a nasty shock which could also very well be your last. I've had stuff brought to me where the guy has tried to 'fix' the problem themselves and I've had to repair their handywork in addition to repairing the original fault. Outcome - they ended up paying more than they would have in the first place.
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That's why I added points a) and b) to the post. I'm not suggesting everyone should attempt to rewind a 1954 Strat pickup or unplug their JCM900 and stick their tongue on the HT supply. But small repairs like replacing pots, pickups and jack sockets are well within the capabilities of most people and it's really not worth leaving equipment with a repairman for a week and shelling out cash for things that you can learn to do yourself.
The important thing is that people realise when they really DO need a qualified technician - anything involving routing, truss rods or the high voltage sections of amps is definitely the exclusive domain of the experienced repairman.
I do take the point that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and this is especially true of valve amps. People aren't accustomed to power supplies that can stay charged for hours after the power is turned off, if in doubt then PUT THE COVER BACK ON AND STOP TINKERING.
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Well just to give you all an update, I had another crack last night at re-soldering the pickup and even though I believe there's a marginal improvement, I still don't think it's 100% :(
Unfortunately, my iron (which although 30W was part of one of these electricians kits from B&Q) isn't the best quality and the flat headed tip now looks more like a fork - haven't a clue how that happened but am hoping that it's a poor quality component.
I'll try and get a replacement iron tip today but am not feeling very confident about successfully resolving this. I'd very much like to be able to suss this out but it's looking more likely that I'll have to take it to a man that knows his onions!
Am now worried that if I keep hacking away that I'll end up creating a bigger job than when I started which is ultimately going to cost more to resolve when I concede defeat and take it to an expert.
Most frustratingly of all is that even though I tried to adhere to your advice about heating the component and allowing the solder to flow onto it rather than the iron tip, I could not get this to happen. I'm hoping this is because the tip was screwed but it's also quite possible that soldering is very low on my list of strengths!!!
All very depressing really! :(
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No harm done, if you're really out of your depth then it's time to cut your losses and hand the job over to the experts
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The worst thing is in theory, it all makes perfect sense - I understand the wiring diagrams fully both for straightforward installation and also push/pull pots for split coil - it's just my soldering technique (and iron) that is letting me down.
I guess it doesn't help having not seen someone else doing it correctly - I reckon that once I've seen for myself the correct application then I'm sure I'll get it cracked.
Anyone know of any decent YouTube videos displaying good soldering technique?
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first result for "how to solder"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLfXXRfRIzY
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Thanks Frank - that certainly clears things up a little. I might approach this more methodically and clean away all my existing botched solder lumps first before attempting to re-solder again.
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The rubbish solder won't help - I've found it's really hard to re-heat...
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I think that was the issue I had last night - the tip of my iron was seriously disfigured and I found that it was taking ages for the solder to melt.
I've order some replacment tips and 60/40 lead solder so hopefully once I've cleaned away the old then I'll work on each join and hopefully get better joints.
As well as the desolder braid and pump, do you recommend a method to 'scr@pe' away old solder that forms a thin mottled layer on the pot surface?
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As well as the desolder braid and pump, do you recommend a method to 'scr@pe' away old solder that forms a thin mottled layer on the pot surface?
It sounds a bit heavy-handed, but I prefer to file off the big chunks of solder so I'm not over-heating the pot too much. And when you've got rid of most of it, sandpaper works very well to remove the last little bits.
Once you've got it clean, flush out the inside of the pot with some contact cleaner (also available at your friendly neighbourhood Maplins).
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Cheers Philly Q, I'm assuming you mean to remove the pot first in order to be able to file it efficiently. I was leaning towards removing the affected components to make it easier for me to clean before starting again anyway so this will be a very useful tip.
I shall grab some contact cleaner as well and this time I'll be practising my soldering before moving onto the real thing. This is probably another stupid question but if I don't have old parts to practise on, what's the best improvised surface to work with - I'm guessing not all metallic surfaces would be suitable?
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if you're totally new to soldering, maybe a better place to start is making your own guitar cables
buy some jack plugs and screened cable and give that a go, everyone needs more patch cables
just ditch that rubbishy lead free solder and get hold of some proper rosin cored stuff, you'll find it much easier to work with
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Cheers Philly Q, I'm assuming you mean to remove the pot first in order to be able to file it efficiently.
Yeah, as a general rule I'd do as much as possible outside the guitar to minimise risk of damage! I usually make a cardboard template with the same pot/switch layout as the guitar and put all the parts on that.
For something to practice on, I don't know.... I don't think aluminium would be suitable, but tin cans should be OK. Cut them into little pieces though, or you'll end up heating the whole can!
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I thought I'd give a quick update on my 'failed' pickup installation after receiving all your help on the issue!
After much deliberation, I took my guitar along to Jonathan (and Ben) at Feline Guitars who after a quick glance established that the pickup had in fact been succesfully installed (although much work is needed on the appearance of my solder joins :lol:).
It turned out that although the bridge pickup was at the required height (slightly higher than recommended) the neck pickup was way too high (I'd raised it after removing the scratchplate to ensure it was securely fixed in place) and therefore this was the reason why it was completely overpowering the bridge.
After the pickup heights were suitably adjusted (similarly the screw coils) the guitar sounded perfect. In addition Jonathan installed 2 Vitamin Q oil & paper capacitors and the difference in the tone pot functionality is amazing - I now have a far greater range of tones available to me via volume and tone pot combinations and I'm now chuffed with how good the guitar sounds.
So much so that for now the (stock) neck is giving me a smoother alternative to the more agressive bridge Riff Raff which is what I was hoping to get when considering installing a Stormy Monday in the neck.
So a number of lessons learnt here but all in all am very happy with the net result.
I think I would still consider attempting my next pickup upgrade but I'll always be mindful of the fact that the experts are experts for a reason!
Cheers for all your help.
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Ha ha - I was nearly right - that doesn't hapen often.
Nice one mate, glad it's working out for you. Wait to see how it plays after Jonathan has done a full fret dress and setup for you :lol: