Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: MDV on October 12, 2009, 10:35:40 PM
-
So, I'm entertaining the thought of getting a turntable.
I usually listen to resampled MP3s for convenience.
I listen to an Arcam CD73 when I want to really kick back and hear some awesome.
Both through an RME fireface (using its DACs in the MP3 case, or just in and out for the arcam) and Adam A7/sub8 combo
But I thought I might get a step up again, if indeed it is, and go vinyl. Is it worth it? What should I be looking at to give me better sound than the Arcam? No point if its not better than that, see.
Thanks in advance.
-
Unless you've got all the vinyl's you want I wouldn't bother. Try new speakers, different cd players, different cans or some other kind of upgrade.
Getting a turntable wont be much of an upgrade unless youve got good speakers, good room, and your willing to spend a bomb on it.
-
Dont need new speakers - Adam A7 & sub 8, like I said.
Have a very carefully set up and fairly well treated listening position.
Not interested in new CD players; I like my arcam
I have lots of cans
Its precisely BECAUSE I have good speakers set up very carefully and reasonably good acoustic treatment, and some nice high end headphones (Ultrasone pro 750s are my fav atm), that I want to try vinyl!!!
So, were I to do so, what would be a few sensible suggestions (not too expensive, a decent match for the gear I've listed) for a turntable?
Ta
-
If you're entering the world of vinyl, work out your maximum budget it then triple it. 8)
You'll be glad you did though.
I'd advise looking for a second hand turntable and phono stage and don't skimp on a new cartridge. The usual suspects would be Pro-ject and Rega with an Ortofon or Sumiko cartridge, I'm not all that up on phono stages these days but I'm sure Ben will be able to add his knowledge to this thread.
For me the benefits of vinyl are the incredible sense of depth and space and massive improvements in timing (I have the Simply Vinyl edition of Metallica's black album and it actually sounds like they are playing in the same room at the same time ;) and when I played my Classic Records edition of Miles Davis' 'Kind Of Blue' to a friend of mine I think he might have peed himself :oops: )
-
If you're entering the world of vinyl, work out your maximum budget it then triple it. 8)
You'll be glad you did though.
I'd advise looking for a second hand turntable and phono stage and don't skimp on a new cartridge. The usual suspects would be Pro-ject and Rega with an Ortofon or Sumiko cartridge, I'm not all that up on phono stages these days but I'm sure Ben will be able to add his knowledge to this thread.
For me the benefits of vinyl are the incredible sense of depth and space and massive improvements in timing (I have the Simply Vinyl edition of Metallica's black album and it actually sounds like they are playing in the same room at the same time ;) and when I played my Classic Records edition of Miles Davis' 'Kind Of Blue' to a friend of mine I think he might have peed himself :oops: )
:lol:
Great, its another one of those, is it?
Thanks for your advice, though, thats just what I was looking for
Where is ben...wouldnt mind him chipping in on this...
-
When I asked Ben about tunrtables and phono stages before I bought my hifi his basic response to "about a grand to spend before speakers" his basic response was any turntable and phono stage that cost less than that were a waste of money. :lol:
Certainly, you do want to spend whatever you can afford.
Vinyl's great though, great. And it's cool.
-
:lol:
Funny, a grand does pretty much treble what I was hoping to spend!
Ah well, alas I have other things to spend a grand on.
-
I aint got a clue about pro audio gear but on the gadget show they had mp3 vs vinyl on uber expensive gear in a theater and thought the mp3 sounded better! o_0
personally I'd upgrade the cables before going vinyl
-
Gadget show is a glorified advert, and can go $%&# itself.
Maybe some Nordost Valhalla?
My cables are fine and quite appropriate for purpose, thankyou :) (dont think I hadnt thunk of that!)
-
Id quite like to see that comparison of mp3 and vinyl.
I often think its quite funny listening to people go on about how vinyl is amazing for sound quality and how digital sucks.
not saying thats going on here. just in general.
work with AES/EBU audio pre compression and mpeg audio streams for H.264 and Mpeg2 video post compression.
there are a small group of people who actually sit and listen to audio compression down from high quality and decide at what point the compression becomes noticeable. They listen to changes in compression bit by bit almost. its crazy! those people write the policy for digital audio and video (some people watched compressed video in a similar way) for broadcast. I'm not about to argue with them.
sometimes i wonder when people dig into digital if they consider how much digital equipment may have been present in the recording process? what sample rates etc was that kit running at? what is the dynamic range of wax disc on a turntable, and a CD in a cd player? according to nyquist you should be ok running at 44.1kHz. can you hear a huge difference between 8 and 10bit coding?
best recording i heard was a 5.1 recording of the proms from inside the BBC 5.1 Audio Truck. treated on the inside and nice speakers. Its just a lorry full of stuff for recording 5.1. Fibre breakout boxes etc. dude cranked it up in there. oh my lord!!
i just dont think listening to vinyl makes a person an audiophile and a lot of people seem to think it does.
not saying thats you MDV. im just having a rant.
rant over.
as far as compression goes, i don't mind sitting in work watching uncompressed high def concerts from time to time with complete AES track before they get squirted through dolby 5.1 encoders.
-
i just dont think listening to vinyl makes a person an audiophile and a lot of people seem to think it does.
Not just makes you someone who likes vinyl. It sounds different, whether that's better or worse is down to the listener.
-
i just dont think listening to vinyl makes a person an audiophile and a lot of people seem to think it does.
Not just makes you someone who likes vinyl. It sounds different, whether that's better or worse is down to the listener.
agreed
-
I think it depends on the source, lot's of more modern music may have been recorded direct to digital, or perhaps to analog tape then mastered digitally in which case I'm not sure what vinyl would add.
There's just something about a record though, the artwork, the feel, the crackle and warmth. I've got a few hundred records I've not listened to in ages and I do plan to get a record deck sooner or later.
But I think the source recording is key, mid 60's to mid 90's stuff would benefit most from being heard on record IMO....
-
On reflection I think I'd rather have SACD.
Which basically means I wont bother. What are the players, about 2k?
Edit - no they dont.
-
On reflection I think I'd rather have SACD.
Which basically means I wont bother. What are the players, about 2k?
Edit - no they dont.
my old electronics lecturer had something to do with the design of the SACD.
his missus left him and he changed into a woman... dunno if he went for whole hog with that, but he's now she.
just sayin'
-
^^ awesome post! deserves an award!
just sayin :)
-
On reflection I think I'd rather have SACD.
Which basically means I wont bother. What are the players, about 2k?
Edit - no they dont.
my old electronics lecturer had something to do with the design of the SACD.
his missus left him and he changed into a woman... dunno if he went for whole hog with that, but he's now she.
just sayin'
:lol:
I think I'll chance the SACD transmitted transgenderism.
A guy on my course, called andrew, now goes by anna...dunno if he went through with the whole thing either.
-
sometimes i wonder when people dig into digital if they consider how much digital equipment may have been present in the recording process? what sample rates etc was that kit running at? what is the dynamic range of wax disc on a turntable, and a CD in a cd player? according to nyquist you should be ok running at 44.1kHz. can you hear a huge difference between 8 and 10bit coding?
I can hear a massive difference between 16 bit and 24 bit, did you know that 24 bit digital audio has a far greater dynamic range than all vinyl, yet people insist vinyl is better. why? I can hear a difference between 8 and 10 bits, but that's because of my amazing speakers and my extra-sensory ears. with quantization added and dither, there may be slightly less difference. SACD is the way forward, just wish it wasn't so expensive... I really want 1 bit technology to take off, as it is equal to the very best analogue sound, except with different transient and compression responses. One needs to ask oneself if this is what one needs to feed oneself?
-
yeah, i have quite a few SACD and DVD-A discs, and i think they're generally wonderful. annoys me greatly that both formats are virually unused and people prefer mp3. stupid people.
i have plenty of vinyl too. i love the experience of using it, it feels special to play a record, and they do sound great. not so sure about this "you need to spend a grand" notion though. if you can afford it, sure, but there are cheaper players that are very good.
-
I also have the Pro 750's and love them.
Gadget show is just for normal people who like gadgets. Not peolpe educated in audio or electronics.
People have become used to hearing bad digital mp3 and alot of people nowadays havent even heard vinyl.
-
fwiw I restested some CD rips in wav and mp3, with the mp3 nominally resampled to 44.1, as per foobar normal output.
I couldnt hear a jot of difference.
MP3s were 320kbs and ripped in media player, so I dont know what encoding it uses.
This is on adam a7s, sub 8, moderately well treated listening position
-
i hate media players encoding.
i mostly listen to stuff on fairly average in ears when out and about, and i cant even stand it on those. and i have some terrible mp3s taken from vinyl that have got to me one way or another.
you ever tried Ogg?
-
The wavs were ripped in media player too....but I figure how wrong can you get a wav? Its not even an encoding, its just copying data off the CD.
Never tried ogg, no. Tried flac, though. for the ~30% space saving, or whatever it is, its not worth it when mp3s can be made to (to my ears at least, which are ok but clearly not great) sound nigh on identical and for that little bit more space you can have wav.
-
If I can stand the typing (cant seem to get it to fill in track names and stuff automatically) I may re-rip some stuff from foobar. Uses LAME for mp3 and...well, we're back to how wrong can you get a wav rip?
-
Trying ogg now. The lossy version. Sounds pretty good. Am about to ab with wav.
-
I just scr@ped through an ABX test in foobar by the skin of my teeth.
500kbs 10Q OGG Vs WAV.
It was the tiniest bit less 'air' in the chime of the ride that gave it away. Very good format.
-
Wav files can still be a lossy format. They are not full lossless format, especially when ripped from a CD. The best formats are flac and another I cant remember (something like monkeys audio?)
-
WAV, lossy?
FLAC better?
Youre gonna have to back that up, I'm afraid; I dont believe you.
-
im currently a fan of the Back on Black vinyl relases by plastichead distribution. Im liking the way they have taken the time to remaster the stuff they release for vinyl. These releases and other vinyl i have bought recently sounds a lot better then the cd releases simply because most cd releases these days are brickwall limited to the point where they sound fking shocking. most cds these days are mastered to a volume level that is over 6db higher than the redbook cd standard. cds can sound really great. most modern releases are broken for you at the mastering stage.
a well mastered release for vinyl sounds better than a hot-mastered cd. end of story.
(even on my modest setup)
turntable/cartridge : pro-ject genie/grado gold
phono box: nad entry level
amp: arcam avr 280
speakers: B&W 685
i wanna get some kind of tube phono stage for crimbo to replace the nad :)
-
Wav files can still be a lossy format. They are not full lossless format, especially when ripped from a CD. The best formats are flac and another I cant remember (something like monkeys audio?)
ye it's called monkey's audio, the file extension is .ape