Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: Andrew W on November 21, 2009, 01:19:43 PM

Title: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on November 21, 2009, 01:19:43 PM: As some of you may have read on the forum I recently got one of the new Xaviere "Telemaster" type guitars with a plan to tart it up into something more to my liking. The first step is the neck which, as it arrived, is not a comfortable shape in my hands. When I bought the guitar I did check that it was supposed to be built to the standard Strat neck pocket shape. I have a Mexican Fender 1950s style Strat neck with a soft V that's exactly what I want so my plan was to swap these over. The original neck came off fine and the Fender neck sits in the pocket OK but there some some problems and this is where I'm seeking advice from the great and the good here.

1) The Fender neck is not as deep as the Xaviere one.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/4122046206_fdaa9abd17.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4122046206/)

Here you can see the new neck as it sits in the body. It looks a little low to me. And...

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2759/4122046490_d6572dbd46.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4122046490/)

This is the difference. When I put the calipers snugly on the end of the Xaviere neck and compared it to the Fender the difference is as you see here, about 1-2mm. Does this mean I need a shim and if so I'm guessing it has to be a shim that fills the pocket. Is that right?

2) The holes don't quite align perfectly:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2689/4122046874_9bc9840453.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4122046874/)

As you can see from the sticks' position in the body they don't run through the centre of the body bolt holes. That seems pretty serious to me, as in I assume I'll have to get these holes filled and then get new holes drilled? Am I being over pessimistic or does this slight misalignment happen a lot? I've only dismantled guitars that already had matching bodies and necks so this is a new one on me.

3) The holes drilled in the Mexican Fender neck seem on the small size diameter wise:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/4121274271_091062213f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4121274271/)

I've also never had a new neck to play with before. The holes as pre-drilled here seem too small for the normal size neck bolts and I don't want to risk splitting the neck. Is this usual with a new neck and do I just need to be bolder or should I look at drilling slightly larger holes in the neck?

If anyone could give me the benefit of their experience I'd be very grateful. My gut feeling is that this is looking more like a proper guitar repairer type job than the sort of lash-up I'd be able to attempt at home but I may just be being over cautious. Any thoughts? Thanks all.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: WezV on November 21, 2009, 02:30:52 PM: these are all very small details so dont worry. if in doubt i would usually plug and redrill neck holes but i am not sure its needed here as the holes are very close to being right or at least seem it in the photos

If you feel like you are forcing the screws then the holes may need to be wider - check your swews with that handy device you are using above

i wouldnt worry about the neck thickness - just add the usual shim at the rear of the neck pocket and see where that gets you
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Ratrod on November 21, 2009, 04:17:15 PM: What Wez said.

It doesn't look that low to me. As long as there's still enough room to allow for pickup and bridge adjustments.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Paradigm on November 22, 2009, 04:29:26 PM: Quote from: Andrew W on November 21, 2009, 01:19:43 PM

1) The Fender neck is not as deep as the Xaviere one.

Here you can see the new neck as it sits in the body. It looks a little low to me. And...

This is the difference. When I put the calipers snugly on the end of the Xaviere neck and compared it to the Fender the difference is as you see here, about 1-2mm. Does this mean I need a shim and if so I'm guessing it has to be a shim that fills the pocket. Is that right?

There is no standard neck thickness (there are different radiuses as well). A neck pocket is normally 5/8" deep though, so as long as the thinnest point at the pocket is bigger than that it's playable (with pickguard). A bridge can be adjusted in height so as long as it's no problem don't worry. The one in the picture looks fine. Shims are not used to heighten the guitar neck.

2) The holes don't quite align perfectly:

As you can see from the sticks' position in the body they don't run through the centre of the body bolt holes. That seems pretty serious to me, as in I assume I'll have to get these holes filled and then get new holes drilled? Am I being over pessimistic or does this slight misalignment happen a lot? I've only dismantled guitars that already had matching bodies and necks so this is a new one on me.

3) The holes drilled in the Mexican Fender neck seem on the small size diameter wise:

I've also never had a new neck to play with before. The holes as pre-drilled here seem too small for the normal size neck bolts and I don't want to risk splitting the neck. Is this usual with a new neck and do I just need to be bolder or should I look at drilling slightly larger holes in the neck?[/i]
There is also no standard size for neck screws. I don't recall the size I usually use, but it doesn't matter much as long as they fit the neck plate (the plate all 4 screws go through on the back of a guitar). What I would do if I were you:
*Fill the holes currently in the neck. There's of course many ways to fill wood, but what I usually do it mix some crushed guitar wood scr@ps (keep twisting it between your fingers until it's a powder), then mix that with woodglue (like Titebond) until it's a relatively smoothe paste and fill the holes. Let this dry out for at least 3 hours.
*Put your screws through the holes currently in the pocket and put the neck in. The screws will make tiny dents in the neck. Use these dents as the middle point when drilling.
*Measure the screws with some calipers and drill holes in the neck 1-2mm smaller than the screws. If you make the holes too small you'll ruin the screws since it requires too much force to put them in, too big and the neck won't be stuck properly.
*Done!

If anyone could give me the benefit of their experience I'd be very grateful. My gut feeling is that this is looking more like a proper guitar repairer type job than the sort of lash-up I'd be able to attempt at home but I may just be being over cautious. Any thoughts? Thanks all.
Being cautious is a good thing! Measure thrice, drill/saw/screw once. Fixing a mistake costs a whole lot more time than preventing one. Don't worry too much though, any mistakes with neck pockets, screws and holes can USUALLY be fixed without too much hassle, since most of it is covered (either by the neck, the pocket or the plate). While this isn't as easy as installing a new nut, it's still an easy job to do. A guitar tech/luthier will charge you have a hefty sum and I've seen some horrible work by 'qualitied techs'. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask them :-).
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: WezV on November 22, 2009, 04:47:54 PM: Quote from: Paradigm on November 22, 2009, 04:29:26 PM
There is no standard neck thickness (there are different radiuses as well). A neck pocket is normally 5/8" deep though, so as long as the thinnest point at the pocket is bigger than that it's playable (with pickguard). A bridge can be adjusted in height so as long as it's no problem don't worry. The one in the picture looks fine. Shims are not used to heighten the guitar neck.

you are correct, shims are not generally used to give more height to a guitar neck.. but if the neck is sitting low the saddles also need setting low, sometimes uncomfortably so. a shim can be used to angle it back and ensure the strings meet the bridge at an appropriate height for otpimum comfort. it needs to be strung up to see if he is happy with that before doing anything

Quote
*Fill the holes currently in the neck. There's of course many ways to fill wood, but what I usually do it mix some crushed guitar wood scr@ps (keep twisting it between your fingers until it's a powder), then mix that with woodglue (like Titebond) until it's a relatively smoothe paste and fill the holes. Let this dry out for at least 3 hours.

crushed wood and glue as a filler is not good enough for this, it has no structural integrity and will not hold a screw well. It works fine if the screw holes are in a completely different place but when they are not too far out like this you end up with one side of your screw in solid wood and one in weak filler. it may work but those holes will wear out a lot faster than doing it the proper way

I see drilling them out and filling with dowels suggested quite often and that is also substandard as you end up with screws going into end grain, again it will work but wear out a lot faster

the best way is to use a plug cutter and forstner drill bit like this-
http://www.axminster.co.uk/pricing/INC/cid/DOQIT7JBVEQ90LVDYRBVPKAN7DVP6T9B/product-Plug-and-Forstner-Bit-Set-794320.htm

Get some scr@ps of flatsawn maple and cut plugs from it, these then need installing with the grain running in the correct direction. the heel is then as good as new ready for re-drilling - and anywhere you drill you can be sure its solid wood you are going into
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Paradigm on November 22, 2009, 05:18:55 PM: Quote from: WezV on November 22, 2009, 04:47:54 PM

you are correct, shims are not generally used to give more height to a guitar neck.. but if the neck is sitting low the saddles also need setting low, sometimes uncomfortably so. a shim can be used to angle it back and ensure the strings meet the bridge at an appropriate height for otpimum comfort. it needs to be strung up to see if he is happy with that before doing anything
True, but it isn't the case here as far as I can judge from the pics. If it was an issue that requires >1mm lift I'd suggest another solution, but no need to complicate the matter.

crushed wood and glue as a filler is not good enough for this, it has no structural integrity and will not hold a screw well. It works fine if the screw holes are in a completely different place but when they are not too far out like this you end up with one side of your screw in solid wood and one in weak filler. it may work but those holes will wear out a lot faster than doing it the proper way
Mmm, I tend to disagree. The filler made with glue like Titebond is sufficient in a case like this. I think you underestimate the strength, especially since the holes are too small to start with and likely most of it will be replaced with the hole. Making plugs is also an option, but I'd opt for filler in this case, especially if you do not have the carpentry skills/tools. The pull on a neck isn't directly directed at the screws, so I don't see the neck falling off any time soon. Heck, I've seen guitars where the screws are 2/5" in the neck that last decades.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: WezV on November 22, 2009, 05:48:28 PM: the filler may be fine for a while, but if you have to take out and remount the neck a few times it will disintegrate a lot faster than actual wood - although i take you point that it may not be an issue here because of the size of the screw holes being filled

again just to stress, i would not recommend using a wood dust and glue filler to fill neck screw holes - the fact it may survive just fine like that (and i admit many do) does not make it the best way
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on November 26, 2009, 08:57:55 PM: So Wez was right, the fit is actually fine. My issue turned out to be that the central part of the bolts that came with the guitar were a bit too fat for the new neck. Those bolts were pretty cheap and nasty anyway so I got some better ones and checked that they went into the neck holes OK, which they did. I've now attached the neck, I think successfully adding, again at Wez's suggestion a shim into the pocket. Thanks for your help everyone: it almost looks like a guitar now!

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2525/4136801316_6f7ce92ece_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4136801316)
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Philly Q on November 26, 2009, 09:17:29 PM: Glad the neck fits! Is that the way the neck pickup was already routed, or have you modified it?
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on November 26, 2009, 09:24:42 PM: Quote from: Philly Q on November 26, 2009, 09:17:29 PM
Glad the neck fits! Is that the way the neck pickup was already routed, or have you modified it?
That's how it comes: just big enough for the mini humbucker but not a lot of wiggle room for anything else. Are you still toying with getting one then? ;)

The body is one of the better put together parts of the guitar I think. The neck pocket is more precisely cut than the one on my Mexican Tele and the routs are all neat. The finish, though poly I'm sure, is really thin but very even. You can make out the grain texture through it which I like.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Philly Q on November 26, 2009, 09:34:48 PM: Quote from: Andrew W on November 26, 2009, 09:24:42 PM
Quote from: Philly Q on November 26, 2009, 09:17:29 PM
Glad the neck fits! Is that the way the neck pickup was already routed, or have you modified it?
That's how it comes: just big enough for the mini humbucker but not a lot of wiggle room for anything else. Are you still toying with getting one then? ;)

I was just wondering why they've painted (shielded?) most of the neck pickup cavity but the bits around the feet are bare wood - obviously they must've routed it after painting.

Not thinking of buying one for the time being. I bought a couple of things in the Warmoth sale so that'll keep me busy for..... 2 or 3 years, at my usual rate of progress. :roll: :wink:
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: WezV on November 26, 2009, 11:56:15 PM: its what happens when you dont plan thoroughly. you may have an extra bit to enlarge or redrill. personally i think i can be forgiven for it because a) all my stuff is one off and b) i do it a damn site neater than that

but it does happen
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Philly Q on November 27, 2009, 12:16:44 AM: Yeah, it does suggest that Xavieres are less mass-produced than we might've thought, which is interesting.

I'd have expected a super-efficient far eastern factory which would have worked out little niggles like that well in advance! :)
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on November 27, 2009, 07:13:02 AM: I did order mine the instant they became available so it's possible that mine is almost a prototype where these kinds of issues were figured out. It would require someone else to buy one and rip it apart to test that hypothesis though.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on December 06, 2009, 06:34:28 PM: I just thought I'd add an update to this. My BKP Blackguard Flat 50 arrived on Friday so I installed it into the new Fender bridge and attached it to the guitar. I strung it up and found that I'd over-compensated for the difference in neck thickness with my shim so I took the neck off again and reduced the shim to lessen the neck angle and this seems to work well. Strung up the guitar has an amazing acoustic punch and sustains for days, much longer than my Tele. I'm really excited to get the project finished to hear what it sounds like plugged in! For now I'm sanding a piece of Bakelite into a new pickguard and I want to get that done before I start the electrics so completion will be someway off. Here's an update of the strung up instrument:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4162992019_d43699c549_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4162992019/)

It still needs a name though. What do you call a hybrid Jazzmaster/Esquire/Stratocaster?
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: hunter on December 06, 2009, 07:13:38 PM: Quote from: Andrew W on December 06, 2009, 06:34:28 PM
I just thought I'd add an update to this. My BKP Blackguard Flat 50 arrived on Friday so I installed it into the new Fender bridge and attached it to the guitar. I strung it up and found that I'd over-compensated for the difference in neck thickness with my shim so I took the neck off again and reduced the shim to lessen the neck angle and this seems to work well. Strung up the guitar has an amazing acoustic punch and sustains for days, much longer than my Tele. I'm really excited to get the project finished to hear what it sounds like plugged in! For now I'm sanding a piece of Bakelite into a new pickguard and I want to get that done before I start the electrics so completion will be someway off. Here's an update of the strung up instrument:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4162992019_d43699c549_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_atrocity/4162992019/)

It still needs a name though. What do you call a hybrid Jazzmaster/Esquire/Stratocaster?

What about Strelemaster?
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Andrew W on December 06, 2009, 07:18:04 PM: Thanks Hunter. "Strelemaster" has been my working title for it and it may yet stick in the longterm- great minds think alike eh? ;) I can't help feel that there's just something about it that's not quite surfy/spaceage enough though.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: Philly Q on December 06, 2009, 07:38:49 PM: Quote from: Andrew W on December 06, 2009, 06:34:28 PM
It still needs a name though. What do you call a hybrid Jazzmaster/Esquire/Stratocaster?

"Trigger's Broom"? :P

Sorry. :oops: But it does seem to have very few original parts left already!
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: 38thBeatle on December 06, 2009, 10:29:34 PM: Jazzocaster.
Title: Re: Replacing necks on Fender type guitars
Post by: gingataff on December 07, 2009, 12:54:41 AM: Stratmasteresq.