Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: IntenseJim on December 23, 2009, 06:12:27 AM
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Maybe we could make our own BK pup tone chart? I think it might be helpful. Maybe something like this:
In Les Pauls to my ears:
bass ..... mids...... treble..... adjective
Rebel Yell 4 8 7 exciting, percussive and punchy
Crawler 6 8 5 thick n sweet, attenuated high end
Cold Sweat 7 5 8 cutting
Black Dog 6 6 6 articulate
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Maybe we could make our own BK pup tone chart? I think it might be helpful. Maybe something like this:
In Les Pauls to my ears:
bass ..... mids...... treble..... adjective
Rebel Yell 4 8 7 exciting
Crawler 6 8 5 thick n sweet
Cold Sweat 7 5 8 cutting
Black Dog 6 6 6 articulate
In Les Paul Custom:
B M T
Holy Diver 6 6 6 Chunky, pretty fat
Painkiller 5 8 8 Tight, aggressive
Cold sweat 4 4 8 Bright and tight
Rebel Yell 5 8 7 Middy rock tone
Miracle Man 7 4 6 Interesting...
Something like that to my ears...
Edits: HD's bass from 7 to 6 and MM added
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it would be nice if you can separate mids into hi-mid and lo-mid
bass ..... lo-mid......hi-mid.... treble..... adjective
C-Pig 8 7 5 6 Saturated and thick
C-Bomb 5.5 5.5 6 6 Crunchy and versatile
MM 7 6 4.5 6.5 Tight and Sharp
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In Les Paul Custom:
B M T
Holy Diver 6 6 6 Chunky, pretty fat
Painkiller 5 8 8 Tight, aggressive
Cold sweat 4 4 8 Bright and tight
Rebel Yell 5 8 7 Middy rock tone
Miracle Man 7 4 6 Interesting...
Something like that to my ears...
Great stuff.
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it would be nice if you can separate mids into hi-mid and lo-mid
Ok but then perhaps with bass / lo-mid / hi-mid / treble ordering instead :wink:
bass ..... hi-mid......lo-mid.... treble..... adjective
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it would be nice if you can separate mids into hi-mid and lo-mid
Ok but then perhaps with bass / lo-mid / hi-mid / treble ordering instead :wink:
bass ..... hi-mid......lo-mid.... treble..... adjective
good point, i just edited mine
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I like to keep things simple and I thought of splitting the mids but I'm not really sure if we'll agree and understand lo mids vs hi mids. But that split and any chart could be really really helpful. Thanks for chiming in folks!
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Hi-mids and lo-mids added:
B Lo-Mids Hi-mids T
Holy Diver 6 7 5 6 Chunky, pretty fat
Painkiller 5 6 9 8 Tight, aggressive
Cold sweat 4 4 6 8 Bright and tight
Rebel Yell 5 6 8 7 Middy rock tone
Miracle Man 7 4 4 6 Interesting...
Something like that to my ears...
I had C-pig in RG550 and C-Bomb in Dinky and that JMP2203's chart is OK, except MM which I found much more scooped.
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Bridge
Bass Lo-Mids Hi-Mids Treble Output
Holy Diver 6 7 6 6 M/H fluid, chunky, warm top, very balanced voicing
Painkiller 4 6 9 8 H tight, very middy, bright top, loud, clean, articulated
Cold Sweat 5 4 6 8 M/H crunchy midrange, sparkly top, sharp sounding
Alnico Warpig 7 8 6 7 H massive, grainy and full midrange, NOT dark at all
Miracle Man 8 6 4 9 H focused, very punchy, grainy low mids, cutting treble
Nailbomb 6 5 5 8 H focused, punchy, loud, controlled mids, bright top
Neck
Bass Lo-Mids Hi-Mids Treble Output
Cold sweat (n) 5 5 5 6 L/M articulated, balanced, fluid, never muds up
Warpig (n) 6 8 5 5 H fat, fluid, cleaner and darker voiced than the bridge model
Miracle Man (n) 6 7 5 5 M/H very similar to the warpig neck
Nailbomb (n) 6 5 3 8 M loud, sparkly top, aggressive 50's PAF on steroids tone
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Bridge
Bass Lo-Mids Hi-Mids Treble Output
Holy Diver 6 7 6 6 M/H fluid, chunky, warm top, very balanced voicing
Painkiller 4 6 9 8 H tight, very middy, bright top, loud, clean, articulated
Cold Sweat 5 4 6 8 M/H crunchy midrange, sparkly top, sharp sounding
Alnico Warpig 7 8 6 7 H massive, grainy and full midrange, NOT dark at all
Miracle Man 8 6 4 9 H focused, very punchy, grainy low mids, cutting treble
Nailbomb 6 5 5 8 H focused, punchy, loud, controlled mids, bright top
Neck
Bass Lo-Mids Hi-Mids Treble Output
Cold sweat (n) 5 5 5 6 L/M articulated, balanced, fluid, never muds up
Warpig (n) 6 8 5 5 H fat, fluid, cleaner and darker voiced than the bridge model
Miracle Man (n) 6 7 5 5 M/H very similar to the warpig neck
Nailbomb (n) 6 5 3 8 M loud, sparkly top, aggressive 50's PAF on steroids tone
I really like this chart set up.
The whole idea of a user created chart is also great. I hope to see this concept evolve and incorporate many more pickups as well.
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Yeah this chart is a good idea, many companies use it to decribe their pickups, like Duncan... (In fact that was the first thing I was looking at when I discovered BKP.... :lol:)
But for BKP, scoring pickups like this is not an objective method to help on how they would sound on your guitar...
Anyway, Eric, considering you compare the PK and the MM in the same guitar, I was expecting that :
1- the MM would have more low mids than bass
2- the PK would have more bass than low mids
Am I mistaken ? :crazy2:
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But for BKP, scoring pickups like this is not an objective method to help on how they would sound on your guitar...
No, but it is a useful way of seeing how they compare with each other. So if you already have a Rebel Yell (say) and find it a little bright or lacking bass, the table could help you decide what else to try.
I think there was an intention to provide this kind of info on the BKP site, the "website update" became a bit of a running joke because it was taking so long (sorry BKP! :P ). I don't know if those plans have been abandoned now.
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Anyway, Eric, considering you compare the PK and the MM in the same guitar, I was expecting that :
1- the MM would have more low mids than bass
2- the PK would have more bass than low mids
the MM was definitely the most bass heavy BKP model I've tried (didn't try the ceramic warpig or the c-bomb)
it has a fair amount of grinding low mids, but not as much low mids as the holy diver, for example
definitely more bass than low mids
the painkiller had a fatter overall midrange than the MM, but less bass than both
the guitar was a brazilian mahogany (same species as the honduran) lp standard copy with brazilian imbuya top and brazilian rosewood
the craftsmanship was kinda cheap, but it was a huge sounding guitar, the most resonant and punchy guitar I had, but with a dark and smooth top (imbuya sounds the opposite of maple)
for that particular guitar, the miracle man was the best
I thought the holy diver wouldn't work, due to the guitar almost excessive thickness and darkness, but it sounded really really good, and better than the painkiller
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Although I think with some careful research and knowledge of wood tonal quality it should be easy to figure out based on this chart...
I think it might be worth while to have an additional column with a "Sits well in/Well suited to:" body wood types.
Could be a cool way to add depth to the chart.
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bump
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as much as I love this idea,
i can almost see it falling apart from differences in opinion. I'm just waiting for a certain few to claim their favorite pickup as 'all powerful" *cough* MDV c-bomb* and claim inferiority for everything else :P
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Very helpful and excellent idea, thanks everybody !!!
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thank you, these charts are very helpful.
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Miracle Man on maple body
Bass LMids HMids Tre - Decription
6 8 6 7 - Very tight,focused with lots of growl and great presence,it cuts really well.
Think of a much tighter and less muddy ol'JBJ
NailBomb on mahogany
Bass LMids HMids Tre - Description
6 5 3.5-4 7 - Very transparent and well balanced.Round highs and loose low end.
It has a dip on the high mids that makes it a very warm sounding pickup
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great idea!!!!!!
thanks
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8)
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I'll play, so long as people remember that this is based on my experience with my guitars. As such I'll include a brief description of the guitars acoustic sound, plus some other notes on performance. Its not all in the EQ curve. I'm going to quite arbitrarily invent T- tightness, S sharpness/sizzle, which in my experience is not the same as shear magintude of treble, and A; attack; the (subjective) initial penetration of each note through your ear drums or in a mix (again, not really composed of any one of the above variables, more an impression in 'real' use), and of course compression, which I'll put as C. AND, of course of course, Hotness, again, a subjective things thats affected by all sorts of stuff that there isnt really a measure for (save perhaps a relative one of when it makes a clean sound start to clip, compared to another pickup). I simply cant resist calling this lot 'THACS' :lol:
Remember peeps - BKs let A LOT of the sound of your guitar through, and even guitars of identical on-paper spec in woods, construction and hardware can sound very different! As such I also expect these numbers to be inconsistent with others experiences (I certainly disagree with a lot of the stuff here so far) but perhaps if we get enough 'results' then the 'wisdom of crowds' thing will let people reading this discern fairly accurate assesments of the pickups (or someone could average the lot; I half expect the EQ ones to all come out as 5-5-5 :lol:).
Use is in Drop B, C#, drop A# and C unless otherwise stated.
Warpig.
Had in -
Jackson DX1; basswood, maple/rosewood, LFR or gotoh at different times. Quite a bit of low mids, balanced top end, not too much in the real low end
Dean Custom shop, Alder, maple/rosewood, LFR. Deeper low end, smoother mids, sweet, singing sort of top end, 'quacky' attack
7/6/5.
T - 5
H - 9
A - 4
C - 7
S - 4
Fat, thick pickup with lots of chunk. Doesnt detune too well, and I wouldnt recommend it past drop C unless youre specifically going for a big fat, but dulled 'doom' sound. Very hot but lacks attack for ultra-fast/high precision stuff (compared to other BKs, it does very well when compared to most pickups, especially other A5s). Does standard thrash type things fine in E/D though.
C-Pig
Had in
Legra MDV602 - swamp ash, mahogany/maple/walnut/maple/mahogany 5pc w/ebony board. Schaller 456 bridge, tusq nut. Very, very tight, deep, percussive low end, smooth mids, sharp, chiming top end.
'Warbird - Warmoth mockingbird, swamp ash, 3pc mahog neck, ebony board, gotoh and jackson LFR at different times. Most similar to the jackson, but less top end and more low enxtension, honkier sounding in the mids.
8/5/6
T - 6
H - 10. No BK is hotter save a couple of customs
A - 6
C - 8
S - 6
Quite a different beast than the A-Pig, it has the most brutal pickup in the range, but has quite a bit of attack and precision to it (though not the most), making it well suited for those that want crushingly heavy sounds that also need a razorblade edge to them. Detunes to at least drop A# well, but starts to struggle past there. Not as sharp as a lot of ceramics since, I guess, its made with such a long piece of wire.
Painkiller.
Had in
Jackson
Legra MDV602
Dean ZX - basswood, maple/rosewood, TM. Tinny sounding guitar, brittle response even acoustically, shallow (but tight) low end; tricked me into not liking nailbombs!
Warbird
6/9/7
T - 7
H - 8
A - 9
C - 5
S - 7
Middy, grindy, ultra-high-attack high mid. A relatively weak wind with 3 big ass ceramic magnets leads to a very hot pickup thats also uncompressed sounding and derives much of its heaviness from preservation of transients and dynamics. A stupidly good detuner that should be a go-to for 7 and 8 string players. Great crunch sounds, surprisingly good cleans - should also be very high on the list for people with one-pickup guitars. Doesnt recieve an ultra-tight rating since, while it can be in the right guitar, in a very bassy guitar it can sound quite tubby.
Miracle man
Had in
The dean custom
Jackson
Epi LP - very balanced for an LP, pretty much had lots of everything, all it lacked was any sort of attack or tightness in its acoustic sound.
6/4/8
T - 7
H - 8
A - 8
C - 7
S - 9
Smooth mids, tight low end, fat low mid, very sharp top end (I guess the MM has a reall high resonant peak, which with its abundance of top end and high mid leads to a crunchy high gain tone if your amp is suited to that and you want to dial it in - think 'best BK for Dimebag'), really screams if you want it to, also superb for darker, but very clear fast metal riffing. Doesnt clean up well (most contemporaries do), very much likes to be on full tilt all the time; its low gain and clean sounds are rather sterile. Not the hottest or most aggressive BK, but very much the pure-bred metal pickup of the lineup. Also detunes extremely well.
Nailbomb
Had in
Dean ZX
Epi LP
6/6/5
T - 6
H - 7
A - 6
C - 6
S - 6
A quite balanced pickup, but with a somewhat tailed off high end. Very much a 'metal pickup that can also do _insert more or less whatever you want here_'. Can be coaxed into going very low, but really thrives above drop C, like the pig.
C-Bomb
Had in
Jackson DX1
Legra MDV602
Legra Aurora - similar to the 602, but not as deep in the lows, more low mids, similar chime and attack in the top end, more midrange cut.
7/5/6
T - 8
H - 8
A - 8
C - 7
S - 7
Actaully to my ears closer to the miracle man than the nailbomb; you can look at it as a sharpened, deepened, smoothed, tightened nailbomb on steroids or a miracle man with more mids and less top end, more or less (cleans up much better than a MM and I find its crunch and cleans unremarkable but acceptable). Great detuner and generally superb 'modern metal' pickup; very percussive, lots of attack but not as sharp as one might expect of a ceramic pickup.
Cold Sweat
Had in
Warbird (only one! Never!....wait, did I not put this in my jackson for a bit? Not sure, dont remember now, ah well, carrying on)
5/7/8
T - 8
H - 6
A - 8
C - 5
S - 9
Apparently an underwound ceramic nailbomb (or a ceramic nailbomb in an overwound cold sweat) and the family sound is there, but there are significant differences - the CS breathes much more, is less compressed and a lot toppier - its rather like you took the spectrum of the C-Bomb and shifted it up, while making it less hot and less compressed. Very versatile, can do death metal if you so desire, but is best left to rock to metal sounds. Detunes very, very, very well and is also recommended for 7 and 8 players, even if it isnt that hot (you'll get the heaviness out of it with the tuning and string gauge, but it will still be very clear).
Crawler
Had in
Epi LP
5/8/4
T - 6
H - 5
A - 5
C - 4
S - 4
This is very much a rock pickup thats probably best explained with the conversation with tim when I got it
Me "I want a blues pickup for a blues guitar for mucking about with blues"
Tim "Crawlers"
Me "Why"
Tim "Because they do great blues and rock, but they have the power there on tap for heavier players like you, for when you want to open it up, which lets face it, you will"
Me "Good call"
And so they do. They dont sound much like them, but they're sort of the opposite of the nailbomb; they're a rock/blues pickup that can also do metal. Tailed off high end gets in the way of detuning them too much or doing anything really aggressive, but they'll take you from paul kossoff to kerry king without any trouble.
I think that covers the bridge pickups I've used
I'll leave the neck and single coils for another time, bored now :P
Summary
EQ T H A C S
Warpig 7/6/5 5 9 4 7 4
C-Pig 8/5/6 6 10 6 8 6
Painkiller 6/9/7 7 8 9 5 7
Miracle Man 6/4/8 7 8 8 7 9
Nailbomb 6/6/5 6 7 6 6 6
C-Bomb 7/5/6 8 8 8 7 7
Cold Sweat 5/7/8 8 6 8 5 9
Crawler 5/8/4 6 5 5 4 4
As a result of the length of this post, which I didnt expect, I will not be making any more pickup recommendations for at least 6 months :lol:
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Nailbomb bridge on bubinga body
Bass LMids Hmids Tre Description
5 5 7 6 Not much bass on this body, transparent, clear with a hi mid voicing. Gets growly when tuning down to drop B where you reach the perfect balance of the bright sound of the guitar and the nailbomb growl.
Miracle Man on les paul Custom
Bass LMids Hmids Tre Description
6 7 5 5 Pretty fat and grinding in the low mids. Quite percussive and not trebly at all on my Les Paul.
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as much as I love this idea,
i can almost see it falling apart from differences in opinion. I'm just waiting for a certain few to claim their favorite pickup as 'all powerful" *cough* MDV c-bomb* and claim inferiority for everything else :P
Ah, I missed this - with all due respect, captain, sir, screw you ;)
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If we get enough results I'm going to average them up (among other things) and see what it looks like.
Not enough data for the time being. (Already started though)