Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: donovan.x on November 17, 2005, 09:15:47 PM
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Why are Epiphones so cheap? Do they suck? If you were to change the pick ups , nut, bridge etc etc and do the pepsi challenge with an Epi and a "Real" Gibson how much difference would you feel/notice?
Serious answers please chaps 8) !!!!
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Why are Epiphones so cheap? Do they suck? If you were to change the pick ups , nut, bridge etc etc and do the pepsi challenge with an Epi and a "Real" Gibson how much difference would you feel/notice?
Serious answers please chaps 8) !!!!
Well, after playing a couple Gibsons at music live, I cant see why people would want to pay twice the price for one. To be honest, the ones I played felt the same as my Epi, and would probably sound the same as my Epi with BKPs! The only thing I prefer is Gibsons finishes over Epi's, Epi seem to have too much clear lacquer!
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I really hate the standard finishes on both gibsons and Epiphones (LOVE the faded ones though.) As far as i could tell, they feel almost exactly the same to play, and from all accounts i've heard, with the same pickups in the gibson and the Epi, you'd never tell the difference. What you're paying for with a Gibson is the build quality i guess (which isn't all that great - MIJ Epiphone Elitists, Orvilles, Greco's etc. are supposed to be far better!) Also stock epi pups SUCK.
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It's all in the timber and finish - nitro and a proper maple cap on the Gibsons :wink:
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Well Epis (the good ones MIK) have a full maple cap as normal. However i suspect that some models use Asian variants of mahogany.
I got lucky and got an Epi SG-400 that is a superb player etc. But i have seen several Epi LPs that were bad. I played one with a veeeery good build quality (MIC) but it felt too "plastic", ie the finish must have been too thick.
Nitro imho, is not the finish i would want. Usually people say Nitro is better than Poly, based on the fact that many Poly finished guitars have a thick finish. On the flipside if you try a thin poly finish, the arguement drops. The only advantage of nitro imho is that it fades.
Anyhow, i would get a MIK epi if it was good.
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The only problem with thin poly on mahogany is that the finich sinks into the grain, so nitro just looks better!
I'd never found a maple cap epi...
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don't epis have "alder/mahogany" bodies? i don't trust the sound of that... :?
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That's what I read on the spec, why is that a bad thing?
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A well built Gibson is better than an Epiphone. But that doesn't justify the huge price tag. Gibson does seem to make alot of dogs lately. (No pun intended HJM)
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That's what I read on the spec, why is that a bad thing?
Depends if you want a Les Paul or an almost Les Paul, Mahogany and alder are a bit like chalk and cheese...
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That's what I read on the spec, why is that a bad thing?
Mainly because we don't know dpecifically what they mean. Is it a cross-breed? is it alder and mahogany glued together? why have they done this? what is that going to sound like? and probably most importantly its not just pure mahogany like propper gibson.
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i think it means they use what's available, be it indonesian mahogany or alder. an epi may or may not sound exactly like a gibson, but then, if you play five seemingly identical gibson les pauls you'll get five different sounds, so who's to say the epiphone's wrong?
some say the gibson's better because it uses one or two pieces of mahogany for the body while the epi may have four different pieces. so how come people are now paying over the odds for seventies les pauls, which are built nothing like a proper standard, with up to seven pieces of mahogany, a three piece maple neck, and hardly any top carve? i'd say 7 times out of 10 i'd take an epi les paul before one of those. not that the construction makes them bad guitars, it was the build quality and penny pinching that did that :roll: .
i have three gibson les pauls and three epiphones, a gibson is my favourite followed closely by two of the epiphones. the guitar i currently play the most is an epiphone les paul hollow body.
okay, i've rambled a lot there, point is, the epiphones can't be expected to be exactly like the gibsons, but they are perfecly good guitars in their own right, it's entirely up to the buyer, and whether they need "that" name on the headstock.
thank you and goodnight :lol:
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That's what I read on the spec, why is that a bad thing?
Mainly because we don't know dpecifically what they mean. Is it a cross-breed? is it alder and mahogany glued together? why have they done this? what is that going to sound like? and probably most importantly its not just pure mahogany like propper gibson.
exactly
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Well Epis (the good ones MIK) have a full maple cap as normal. However i suspect that some models use Asian variants of mahogany.
I got lucky and got an Epi SG-400 that is a superb player etc. But i have seen several Epi LPs that were bad. I played one with a veeeery good build quality (MIC) but it felt too "plastic", ie the finish must have been too thick.
Nitro imho, is not the finish i would want. Usually people say Nitro is better than Poly, based on the fact that many Poly finished guitars have a thick finish. On the flipside if you try a thin poly finish, the arguement drops. The only advantage of nitro imho is that it fades.
Anyhow, i would get a MIK epi if it was good.
Yeah thats what I hate about my Epi, the plasticcy look of the finish!
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Why are Epiphones so cheap? Do they suck?
Yes, they suck. I've yet to play one that I've liked. The necks all feel like there are tiny boat anchors holding me back.
If you were to change the pick ups , nut, bridge etc etc and do the pepsi challenge with an Epi and a "Real" Gibson how much difference would you feel/notice?
By then you could afford a used Gibson, I would think.
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It's mainly because they're built in a country that has a very low labour cost, unlike the US, and the materials used are of a lower standard.
However, because of the lower labour costs, the Korean Epiphone factory CAN afford someone to check the quality control. :lol:
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However, because of the lower labour costs, the Korean Epiphone factory CAN afford someone to check the quality control. :lol:
:lol:
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I've noticed epiphone prices plummet recently, not the RRP as such, but some places have some good deals that make the epiphones cheap enough to actually represent good value for money. I guess they figured that the budget market's getting more and more competetive.
As for Epi's Vs Gibson...
Some Gibson's are pretty cr@p, and some epi's are pretty good. Both have quality control that varies so widely that even though Gibsons are generally better, there'll be some epiphones that perform better than some Gibsons. However, a modern Gibson in my eyes isn't worth the cash they want for it, and an epi isn't a good enough copy of it. Tokai copy Gibson far better and with the proper woods, not alder. Who ever heard of an alder Les Paul? If you're not worried about stuff like that the epi isn't a bad buy, but I have to admit most of the epiphones I've tried felt a bit naff, and their pickups aren't up to par at all. I'd really be intrested in trying out an elitist epi, I imagine they're on a par with MIJ Fenders.
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For me, the difference between any lower range version of something and it's higher range counterpart is mostly something for the player to appreciate, more so than the listener.
I recently was testing American Standard Strats against Suhr Strats.. I'm thinking of buying a strat (most likely USA Std) but I wanted a taste for what the next tier of instrument quality would bring me.. Tbh I didn't find the £1k + of sound quality to be there.
What I did find however, was the difference in feel. The Suhr necks felt amazing; in fact the whole product just felt more solid on the whole.
Same goes for the Gibson/Epiphone thing too. I don't really agree with whoever said they feel almost the same - they don't. A/B them, and so long as you've good examples of each Gibson/Epiphone (i.e. not the one that bypassed quality control lol), the Gibson equivilant will feel better.
Better is of course subjective.. but in terms of 'quality' (woods, construction etc) the Gibbo will win.
The Gibson also holds it's value pretty well.. Yes, they do cost a lot of money, but the amount of depreciation really isn't that bad compared to other brands.. you're paying for a name just as much as for the quality - whether or not that's worth it is up to you
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An American guy on a forum I use said that the Gibsons he sets up are no better set up than most of the Korean made guitars.
Down to the original question. The most important factor I think is the name on the headstock which is the reason for price differences - for example many of the Korean made ESP's are better made than the lower end US model gibsons. The Korean company that makes the SE models for PRS puts out better quality instruments than whoever does the Epiphone models, which is why Epiphone models are always discounted.
Obviously better materials are used in the US models from the wood down to the electronics like the pickups, jacks etc. Even if the wood used for the Epiphones is sourced from the same place, its not going to be the better wood.
As nuntius said, the resale value will be higher. That is the reason I decided not to buy a Japanese Tokai model - the instrument is better made than the Gibson equivalent, but the resale value is poor.
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I have only ever played one Epi and at that point I had never played a real Gibson , so I had nothing to compare it against. Since then I have played and owned numerous Gibsons (Mainly Les Pauls and S.G's) and loved most of them.
From the feeling of this thread I gather that once you have known and loved a real Gibson theres no going back, (I am assuming that all the ones I have played/owned all got a proper quality inspection! :lol: )
Thanks again for all your valued opinions, I will be steering clear of Epiphone. :shock:
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Epiphones are good for the money, we’ve fitted quite a few with BKP's and they sound awesome.
They are cheaper simply because of the cheaper components wood and construction methods used.
70's les Pauls are poor???? Most of Tims Les Pauls are from that era and any one who has played them will tell you they are some of the nicest they have ever played.
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Thanks again for all your valued opinions, I will be steering clear of Epiphone. :shock:
I should also point out that the guitars higher up the range are better guitars like the Zakk Wylde model.
Also its just our opinion. Some Epiphones are made in the US but they don't have exact Gibson equivalents - like the John Lennon Casino. Often all that is wrong with the guitar is the pickups, and as you are on this site you've obviously considered replacing them. I've got a Korean made "PRS" and its a pretty decent guitar - the stock pickups weren't great but that doesn't mean its not a good guitar. Above all its affordable and if you listen to all the great english guitarists they all had cr@ppy instruments.
One other thing I should say is that because most Epiphones are discounted you can get a lot of guitar for the money. Also if you are not after the Gibson name on the headstock seriously look at the Japanese Tokai guitars as they are less than half price of the equivalent Gibson and can be better made (which is why they've been sued so many times).
*oops read the original post and realised you are not a beginner!*
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70's les Pauls are poor???? Most of Tims Les Pauls are from that era and any one who has played them will tell you they are some of the nicest they have ever played.
oops, i didn't mean all 70's les pauls are rubbish! i 've played four; one was completely awful, two were okay and one was extremely good. what i was referring to was the way their prices are creeping up, even for dodgy examples. given how the vintage market has always obsessed about accurate (i.e. the same as in the fifties) detailing, i find this hard to understand. their sandwich construction and maple necks could hardly be described as vintage accurate!
but hey, zakk wylde, and apparently tim mills, both play maple necked pauls, and i've got a maple necked eggle berlin. i like maple necks! i just think a lot of 70's guitars are being cynically tagged as "vintage" to make extra money. and to return to the thread, the epiphones are perhaps made more like a "real" gibson than the actual 70's gibsons.
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On the point of Alder - what does an alder body Les Paul sound like compared to a mahogany? What is the fundamental difference in tone? On a guess with Fenders (mainly alder) i'd say Alder had less sustain but was brighter, is that right?
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"the Japanese Tokai guitars as they are less than half price of the equivalent Gibson and can be better made (which is why they've been sued so many times)."
The "Lawsuit" is a popular misconception, and didn't actually happen unlike the recent PRS vs Gibson case. In the late 70's Gibson (and Fender) was floundering under the weight of the great quality, far eastern copies of their guitars, as their own products were gaining a reputation for not being that good. So the big companies brought in big company lawyers, and threatened all the small companies that were producing these copies. Unfortunately for the large companies, the threat of the lawsuit couldn't stop these small companies building to supply their home market (Japan) with the big name copies, and so that's why the mid/late 80's copies are so scarce, they were only ever built for the home market, which was no where near as large as the global market.
No lawsuit was ever actually brought against either Ibanez, Tokai, Greco, Burny or any of the other Japanese manufacturer's.
The Alder element of the Korean Epi's is the cap, used instead of maple, then either painted a block colour, or given a veneer. Some of these Epi's to me sound a bit too bright acoustically, as opposed to one with a maple cap, but plugged in they don't sound too bad so long as you roll your tone pot down.
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I've got an Epiphone Sheraton 335 copy second hand for £260. I put Seymour Butts Seth Lovers into it and it sounds fantastic. In fact it sounds better than my Gibson LP.
The Gibson feels like a better guitar. Everything on the Gibson feels very precise and well made but...I don't actually like that. My Gibson's spent most of the last 20 years under the bed. I used to gig with a Hohner strat copy (with changed tuners and pups) as it was just more fun to play.
The Sheraton's a better guitar than the Epiphone 335 dot. I tried one of those and didn't rate it. The moral is give them a try unplugged and if it feels right get it and change the pups.
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Yeah, I jammed once with a guy who had an Epiphone Sheraton - very nice guitar. I played it and was impressed.
My experience with Epiphones is mixed...I liked my Firebird when I had it but I was young; I had little experience with top end guitars. The neck was comfy, the electronics were shite. But you know, I was quite disappointed with my Gibson when that finally arrived anyway.
I think there is an element of the placebo effect at times...at least to me because I'm not so hung up on the subtleties of guitars. I'm not the kind of person who scutinises necks and fretboard finishing. I just care if it plays well (the Epi did) and sounds good (well, I'll be replacing the pickups soon).
I don't think the difference in price is realistic though, but then I think Gibson's whole pricing policy is way too expensive anyway. It's good to finally see them dropping a bit now, with the LP Classics coming in at £800.
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where are you getting les paul classics for £800? they've actually gone up a little over here (Northern Ireland)
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er...fell off the back of a lorry?
Anyway, my apology - its actually £899.
They are here:
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=1064
How much are they in NI?
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well, for a while they were at a similar price to the mainland- they were £999 (when they were £999 in england too), but i think they've gone up to £1100 now
meh, it's all academic, i'm not in the market for a gibbo at the moment anyway...
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well, for a while they were at a similar price to the mainland- they were £999 (when they were £999 in england too), but i think they've gone up to £1100 now
meh, it's all academic, i'm not in the market for a gibbo at the moment anyway...
Thats also what happens when you only have about 4 places to go shopping in :(
Try buying a Ric in belfast and learn the true meaning of overpriced.
Kilby...
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Those LP classics are going down in price coz they're having trouble shifting them - I had one (don't know why the $%&# I bought it), anyway it was average and so were all the other 'classics' I've played.
The current LP Standards are REALLY nice and fairly consistent imo - I'm lusting after a new std with a 50s neck.
On the subject of Epi's, there really is a big difference between them and Gibsons - anyone who says otherwise is just kidding themselves. I got my '91 LP std when it was two years old for £700 second hand and it's a great guitar.
:twisted:
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Thought I'd resurrect this old thread ;)
Interesting views, and I agree with most of what's been said. However...
The quality of the high end Epiphones is getting better and better. I played my '65 Epi SG back to back with a Gibson Faded SG and a regular Epi SG G400.
The G400 had a thick neck and didn't feel like a great guitar. It sounded OK but you could tell it was a cheap model.
The Faded SG had a nicer tone, and you could tell it was better quality than the G400. However, it also had a thick neck which was very "Les Paul" not SG. An SG should have a thin neck IMO.
The '65 felt and sounded the most SG-like of the three, and by a long way. It had the best access to the upper frets as it had a smaller heel like an SG should. The pickups were surprisingly sweet too, better than the Gibsons.
I would love to try the new Epi LP Std Plain Top, as I reckon it'll be a great guitar. Even with a re-wire and new pickups you'd be coming in around £575 and would have as good a guitar as a US Gibson costing twice the price.
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I would say quite a bit of it is just so you have the name Gibson on the headstock. It's the name that if you asked somebody who doesn't play guitar a make of guitar they would say Gibson. This is the same with other guitars, like Zakk Wylde's signatures have a joke price tag, if his name wasn't on it, it would definatley not be as expensive, same goes for Steve Vai etc.
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put it this way.... pre 1969 gibsons are the reason gibson is what it is. 70's hit and they got new managment who wanted more money, so they cut the costs of everything, 1970 to the 90's were the worst years at gibson, constantly cutting back quality. in the 90's they again got new management, and since they have been slooowly bringing the quality back. I own a 2002 LP Standard and it plays like a dream. I work in a music store and there are some great epi's but...I have only come across one model that constantly feels nice, the rest usually fall under the "your getting what you pay for" kind of thing. but it seems like to me gibsons are either love or hate.
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go on tell us which one is constantly good.
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well own a gib sg build quality great on neck body and finish, pickups were shitee, truss rod not properly connected, messed up screws on pickguard...but lovely to play...but don't think it was 2 to 300hundred better than the epi.....and have always loved sounds of les pauls but never liked the necks apart from on a reissue(was thiner) but tht was silly money.....got a Guild bluesbird instead...far better finish than any les p I've seen lately, neck is sweat....and because old new stock payed hallf its normal price...and a lot les than a LP..far better guitar but peaple walk past them because they don't say gibson......
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Someone just walked in with a CHINESE made Epi LP STD which they bought at London Guitar Show for £250!!!
Fixed neck and the works!
Was rather good to be fair played acoustically
Haven't plugged it in yet
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Just goes to show don't allways need to spend a fortune
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But, if you do want to spend a fortune, email this guy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1958-58-59-Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Uber-Flame-top-Real_W0QQitemZ7415462296QQcategoryZ38086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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:o
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er...fell off the back of a lorry?
Anyway, my apology - its actually £899.
They are here:
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=1064
How much are they in NI?
LOL - recheck the price of the LP classic, guys... thats outright SCARY
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er...fell off the back of a lorry?
Anyway, my apology - its actually £899.
They are here:
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=1064
How much are they in NI?
LOL - recheck the price of the LP classic, guys... thats outright SCARY
That's a bit strange, they were cheaper right across the boards a while ago.
Anyhow, if you've a fortune to spend you should check the guy who is selling his collection of 14 or something Fender strats & teles from '57-'62. He is selling them as one complete unit, on ebay, from Switzerland!
And the worst thing is, he said he would keep them for his kids but they'd rather play PLaystation! :o
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You have to be really careful with epiphone - They advertise that their SG doublenecks (for example) have a mahogany top, but don't advertise so publicly that the rest is made of plywood :? A lot of the time, cheap epiphones are the definition of cr@p, (cr@p tuners, cr@p setup, cr@p wood, cr@p quality in general) but because they have something to do with Gibson, people buy them anyway :? :? :?
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In the grand scheme of things, epiphones aren't that cheap. You get a lot more guitar for your money from Dean, Washburn, Ibanez, Godin, Cort etc at that price point. The body construction is OK, but the neck on my SG warps as soon as you look at it. The components are simply DREADFUL. The switch starts to die after about a year, the volume controls have such a poor taper that it's basically on or off, the bridge is a POS, with badly cut saddles (I went up to a .52 E string and had to attack it with a needle file) and the tuners are the worst I have ever seen. The problem is that because it's SO bad, I don't want to spend £300 on it to get it into giggable shape.
I am sometimes tempted to get a cheap or second hand black beauty and do it up though.
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If I were looking at Epi's I'd buy a Tokai instead. (Which I did).
I also didn't find any Gibson Standard or Custom locally that would hold a candle in anyway (other than pickups) to the Tokai Custom (LC80). The sustain and warmth from this thing is huge, maybe I just got lucky, or maybe the local dealers only had cr@p LP's in stock at that time.
So what worked for me was to get the best sounding guitar and stick Mules in. It's a sleeper now. I'm not interested in re-sale, this is my knock about guitar.
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damn that's a beautiful guitar...too bad I've never seen a tokai in canada.. :(
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Nah played LP, Epi and tokai but the guild bluesbird beat them all, even came with quite good sh1 59's pickups.......which I replaced with emeralds....
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Loving the look of the bluesbird on the left in that pic!
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damn that's a beautiful guitar...too bad I've never seen a tokai in canada.. :(
Really? I ws in a local music shop yesterday trying out several Tokais. They had a Les Paul Gold Top model with P-90 pickups that was just awesome! It had one-piece body and nice finish. I also liked the Melody Maker copy they had. It was eye-piercing bright yellow! :lol:
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yup missed out on that colour and the red mine is the one in my avatar
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If getting Tokai there are two standards think the Jap ones are the nicer finish fit etc
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If getting Tokai there are two standards think the Jap ones are the nicer finish fit etc
not to mention the correct woods!
i think the korean ones are alder with a sycamore top :?
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isn't sycamore basically a breed of maple?
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Yes, with Tokais the Jap ones are the quality ones. I only wish I'd've got one in the 70's/80's when the yen was worth nothing compared to the Aussie $. Back then they were SENSATIONAL value as opposed to just being good value now.
New Tokais have only just reappered in Australia I can't imagine many Gibson dealers stocking them. :twisted:
BTW Anyone got a Fernadez Strat for sale? :)
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You gotta watch out. You can't get some of the Epiphones in tune because by the time you finish tuning, half the guitar has already gone out of tune.
The more expensive ones are okay, but Gibsons are worth it for one reason - the woods are superior. With an Epiphone Les Paul, you get an alder body and a maple top. An Epiphone SG would be the same with the exception of the G-400 which is mahogany and the deluxe has a maple top on that.
Anyway if you want the Les Paul sound, Epiphone wont quite get you there.
Also, I believe Sifu Ben is correct when he said the internal electronics on Epiphones is a total hackjob. I see more Epiphones with shorts in the switch or elsewhere than any other guitar. While I say that Gibson has had no form of quality control at all since 1970, it is very rare that I have seen similiar problems with a Gibson.
The Godins I have played have all been good Gibson alternatives too, and Dean and Schecter make some acceptable LP alternatives too. I would avoid PRS because they bend you over and send you home with their cr@p just as much as Gibson does.
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Nah played LP, Epi and tokai but the guild bluesbird beat them all, even came with quite good sh1 59's pickups.......which I replaced with emeralds....
Guild has made Gibson-style guitars for years and they are cheap but just as good. My father owns four Guild acoustics, none of which he paid a lot for and you can't beat them with less than $2000usd to spend.
Just after I bought my first electric, there was a Guild Les Paul Custom (or their version of) in a local store. I would have bought that first in a heartbeat!
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This is a MAIN Tokai dealer in Canada!
Although most he shows are made under liscence in Korea, the Customs ones have FUll mahogany with Maple top etc.
http://www.jsdguitarshack.com/tokai_love_rock.html
also a Dillon dealer.
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I would avoid PRS because they bend you over and send you home with their cr@p just as much as Gibson does.
I couldn't have put it any better! You can add Fender "we're disgustingly overpriced and getting lazy living off the badge" Australia to that as well.
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I would avoid PRS because they bend you over and send you home with their cr@p just as much as Gibson does.
I couldn't have put it any better! You can add Fender "we're disgustingly overpriced and getting lazy living off the badge" Australia to that as well.
Fender is give and take. Strats and teles obviously aren't for everyone, and I'm more of a humbucker guy myself, but some of the more expensive Fenders are nice but I have not been very impressed by the cheaper models, and is we judge Fender's standards by their US Standard strat, then their standards are pretty low.
Gibson can be okay too but most of them are cr@p. The last non custom shop Les Paul I played with a good neck was a 1995 and I own it. Almost all the necks on the new ones come warped from the factory, but they never have any tension on the truss rod from the factory so the only way you can know if you have a good neck or not is to view where it's bowing.
I've played a few custom shops that were all quite good and this custom shop '58 that everything was absolutely perfect on except the neck is super fat, but you have to pay a lot for a custom shop (the '59s are $5000usd and the '58s and '60s sell for about $2500usd).
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Agreed, I did get a nice Am DLX Strat but I looked at about 12 of exactly the same model to get what I consider to be a good one. I've agonised over getting a Fender Tele but my next guitar will be a G&L ASAT Special US model. I'm convinced they're still putting some time and effort into the quality of the build/electronics and I don't mind paying if I reckon some love's been put into 'em y'know?
Edit Tried to add picture of ASAT but no go.