Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: varkunus on February 07, 2010, 09:36:01 PM
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"I am in the search for a high end les paul copy, something £500ish maybe. I am lefty but could you firstly tell me which you would recommend, secondly whats the difference between epi standard and custom, and how do tokais compare with epis. "
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1272344&page=1&pp=20
I posted this on UG but would like BKPs unbiased oppinions (cause you guys are generally more fair in recommendations than UG).
Please post replies here not on UG.
Thanks guys
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Agile AL3100 kicks the ass of pretty much any non sig Epi, and they do a full range of lefties.
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Japanese Tokais have been the best ones I've seen/played/owned.
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Agile
(for this wedge i would get a 3000M with a full thickness maple top, but they are all good)
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Chinese Tokais < Epiphone < Japanese Tokais quality wise.
The Japanese Tokais are getting more expensive though but are very good quality, I have a 335 copy that's really nice.
Pickups are okay but not amazing. Constuction wise I think they are pretty near the real thing where Epiphones are not.
However, the Epiphone 59 reissue looks good:-
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/83013
Thats what I'd try and stretch to with your budget or go for something secondhand
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hmmm, better make my reply less biased for here :roll: :lol:
assuming you're talking about japanese tokais, they should be a lot better than (non-MIJ epis). £500 is probably slightly less than you'd get an MIJ for at the current poor exchange rate (i think i've seen richtone selling some at £600), but it's probably worth spending the extra £100 considering how much nicer than are than non-mIJ tokais, epis and the like. Unless that money is earmarked for this month's rent or food or something.
there are other japanese copies, but tokais tend to be the easiest ones to find...
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I am quite familiar with epiphone models but not so much so with tokai and agiles. So could you guys give me some speicific models of both that I can check out.
Thanks
btw: in case you guys didnt read UG. I want this guitar mainly for that LP sound. I am looking to recreate those screamining violin like tones of gary moore - think still got the blues/parissiene walkways, and santana type tones. Dont know if that helps with your recommmendations.
Also, I just looked on richtones.
http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/guitars-1/electric-guitars-2/tokai-love-rock-ls85f-cherry-sunburst-563.html
http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/guitars-1/electric-guitars-2/tokai-love-rock-ls75-electric-guitar-black-568.html
http://www.richtonemusic.co.uk/guitars-1/electric-guitars-2/tokai-lc85-electric-guitar-wine-red-579.html
Whats the difference between the 85s and the 75s, and with the two 75s what difference with the F and no F.
And whats stock pups like on tokais?
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The Tokai numbering system is pretty confusing and what makes it worse is that they change it periodically as prices increase. You are much better looking at the Spec and not worrying about the number.
Give Richtone a bell, they are pretty helpful, that's where I got my ES130 from.
As for the pickups, they are okay, mine squeel a bit under higher gain (in a semi mind you). They give an okay PAF tone but since I have had Stormy Mondays and know what I missing I'm afraid they are really just keeping the pickup cavities warm for now.....
For Gary More tones also look at the Vintage Icon Lemon Drop, not 'high end' but they get good reviews and are solid mahaogany with a maple cap at least....
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From my experience of jap guitars (and being a les paul man), Greco are the best for quality, i'd try and find an early 80's version. They are really top quality guitars, long neck tennon, great attention to detail. You could prob pick up a good one for about £300, but you've obviously got to add shipping and tax on to that.
You could also try burny (not quite as good, but nearly) or Aria, or the Yamaha Studio lord ; i think in the late 70's early 80's all these guitars came from more or less the same factory!
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Whats the difference between the 85s and the 75s, and with the two 75s what difference with the F and no F.
And whats stock pups like on tokais?
LS85F - Les Paul Standard copy with a flame top
LS75 - as above, but a plain top
LC85 - Les Paul Custom copy (more cosmetic fancyness, upping the price to the same as a flame top. Also has a mahogany top, not maple)
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For Gary More tones also look at the Vintage Icon Lemon Drop, not 'high end' but they get good reviews and are solid mahaogany with a maple cap at least....
That's actually a great option - they're better than their price suggests....
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From my experience of jap guitars (and being a les paul man), Greco are the best for quality, i'd try and find an early 80's version. They are really top quality guitars, long neck tennon, great attention to detail. You could prob pick up a good one for about £300, but you've obviously got to add shipping and tax on to that.
A '78 greco on ebay.fr for (currently ) €201 - watch out, it ends in a few hours :
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260546702920&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_3352wt_1167
Too bad I don't have a couple hundred € to spend :(
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Maybe TC Ellis could be something? You can get a quite cheap but supposedly good quality custom build.
http://tcellisguitars.com/
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If you see a guitar made by Signature (Japan) I suggest you jump on it and have a play.
I got one recently and it's the nicest guitar I've ever fretted by far.
Sounds very good too even with the stock pickups (nails the 'Woman Tone').
(they are fairly easy to spot as the headstock has a pictogram as opposed to the name, which is on the truss rod cover.)
edit: No idea if they cater for lefties, though...
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http://www.rondomusic.com/electricguitar-ss17.html (http://www.rondomusic.com/electricguitar-ss17.html) Agile 3000M at the bottom of this page
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whilst a great guitar Gwem, it's going to be well over his budget. As is it's £420, once you've added case (Rondo won't ship internationally without a case now), overseas shipping and taxes, you're getting into Japanese Tokai or Atlas Custom territory, and while I love Agiles I'm not sure I'd take one over those options. The awful exchange rate has really hampered bargain guitar buying. When the rate had just started to dip, but before it nosedived, I got an AL3100 with case, shipping and taxes for about £380. Sadly you're looking at more like £500 at the moment :(
Oh, and he's a leftie http://www.rondomusic.com/al3000prestleft.html
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Just checked out the vintage lemon drop les paul and it seems pretty awsome. Sounds pretty darn nice and few people on youtube comments saying its comparable to gibson standards - havent seen any bad comments about it so far. Will it feel like a proper guitar and not an expensive starter guitar, and will it sustain as well as other les pauls (e.g is mahogany of good quality)? ALso where is it assembled? And how would this and the MIJ tokais differ in quality/playability and sound quality?
Also when I say gary moore, I mean his quite gainy sound e.g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyTHJ40pasM&feature=related Where it is really saturated in gain, but also extremely clear and quite clean sounding. To do this I am hoping to sell my fizzy marshall DSl401 and trade it in for a peavey bandit - yes I know its a tranny. But I dont think I am going to get the versatility or sound I want from a tube unless I spend well over £1k (money I dont have). And from the clips of the peavey on youtube it sounds really for a wide range of stuff - although I welcome any oppinions of course.
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whilst a great guitar Gwem, it's going to be well over his budget. As is it's £420, once you've added case (Rondo won't ship internationally without a case now), overseas shipping and taxes, you're getting into Japanese Tokai or Atlas Custom territory, and while I love Agiles I'm not sure I'd take one over those options. The awful exchange rate has really hampered bargain guitar buying. When the rate had just started to dip, but before it nosedived, I got an AL3100 with case, shipping and taxes for about £380. Sadly you're looking at more like £500 at the moment :(
Oh, and he's a leftie http://www.rondomusic.com/al3000prestleft.html
happy to take that one on the nose ben :)
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I dont think I am going to get the versatility or sound I want from a tube unless I spend well over £1k (money I dont have).
Or you could get an Orange Tiny Terror, Gary's recording amp of choice nowadays, a 4X12" cab and a good booster pedal for fairly cheap.
If you shop around you can find some serious bargains, even with valve amps.
I have something negative to say about the lemon drop; the finish is really unconvincing and looks like a transfer as opposed to natural wear.
You might just do well to try other les pauls in their range, too, as I've heard good things.
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Well as I said the solo tone I am going for is a really screaming blues/rock type tone e.g gary moores. I am not that bothered about looks but more the sound. So how does the lemon drop compare to the more expensive MIJ tokais?
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LS85F - Les Paul Standard copy with a flame top
LS75 - as above, but a plain top
LC85 - Les Paul Custom copy (more cosmetic fancyness, upping the price to the same as a flame top. Also has a mahogany top, not maple)
word. doesn't the custom have a rosewood fretboard, though?
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I believe it does Dave, yep.
varkunus - get whichever Les Paul copy you can afford/like the look of/feel most drawn to. To get the tone you're after, it's mostly a singing valve amp not the guitar anyway anyway.....
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I'm aware that the amp is the main player in tone, but I do think guitars make quite a big difference - albeit subtley. At the moment I am drawn to the vintage les paul lemon drop, but how does it this compare to the MIJ tokais. I mean what is the difference in playbility, tone/wood quality and overall build quality. Has anyone played both a v100 and tokais and so could offer good comparissions?
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You spoke of a £500 budget you could get a lemon drop and a Bugera V22 for close to that. Just hunt one down and try it. My experience with Vintage has impressed me mightily.
Check out this demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBz5bNqJ5Bc
Another one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ztoCKixoo&feature=related
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Yeah I have already seen these vids and it seems it sounds pretty awsome. So playability wise/general quality how will it compare with the more expensive MIJ tokai les pauls?
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Only way to find out is to track down a dealer and see if you can get a score, or at least a sample.
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I do think guitars make quite a big difference - albeit subtley.
Eh? :? How can you have a subtle big difference????
You can hunt around for opinions here on the internet all day long for months on end, but what you really need to do is get out into the real world to a few music shops and try some guitars out. Try everything, and find what works for you.
You've got a few pointers from us as to what to look for, now it's over to you :)
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I'd go for the vintage, for £250ish it's worth taking a punt. Then you've got cash to spare for an amp. If the pickups need upgrading (many say they don't) you could get some Bare Knuckles.
As it's a copy of the Gary Moore LP, it should sound in the right ball park.
I bought a £130 Vintage Tele for a relative recently. Did it look like a 1952 Telecaster and make me sound like Roy Buchanan? Not really, but for £130 it was a great guitar and had lots of Tele Vibe which is all you can ask at that price.
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I've never tried the Vintage, but it's half the price of a Tokai and to a certain extent you are bound to get what you pay for - it's not as if Tokais are particularly expensive to begin with.
You can be sure that the Vintage will be great value for money, but that doesn't mean it'll be perfect, it's still a budget instrument. As Twinfan said, it reaches a point where you really have to go out and try them, other people's opinions can only get you so far! :)
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So in summary: vintage are really good value for money are still made pretty well.
Just one last question, which is what I have been trying to get the answer too. Is the price difference of over £400 between MIJ tokais and lemon drop worth it? Are they both built of similar quality materials, have similar construction quality etc?
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The price difference is there for various reasons - country of manufacture, build quality, QC, raw materials etc.
Only you can decide if the more expensive model is truly "worth it".
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Just seen this on eBay, which is a great buy at £350:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gibson-Epiphone-Joe-Perry-Signature-Les-Paul_W0QQitemZ190371176850QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV?hash=item2c5301a192
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Not a lefty though!
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Doh! Missed that bit!
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Only you can decide if the more expensive model is truly "worth it".
This sounds like the voice of experience :)
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Exactly!
I've bought and sold a few guitars over the years ;)
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OK may sound a bit odd, but if you gave the MIJ tokais an overall rating for 10 on the following. How would the vintage score comparitively on the following...
Sound -
Raw materials -
construction quality -
playability -
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Dude - enough already.
Find a shop with some in stock and play them both and see what YOU think. It's always worth a day trip to check out guitars :)
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I really think you should try some for yourself. What some rate as a 10 others may rate as a 7 etc etc etc. It's very difficult to be specific about the details in differences between 2 guitars on a forum - the only real way of telling is trying.
Just my opinion of course.
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Dave beat me to it!
Seriously, try some out and decide what you like. I love my strat, Dave doesn't like strats that much. It doesn't make my guitar a 'great' guitar and an 'okay' guitar at the same time. It's all about personal opinion.
And yes, a day out in a guitar shop is a great way of finding out what works for you 8)
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No ofc I know this. But what I am getting is at is how much worse is the build quality of the vintage compared to the more expensive mij tokais. So if someone here has played MIJ tokais and a vintage v100 les paul style guitar. How would describe the differences between guitars. Thats what I am getting at. I live on the isle of wight and guitar shops are limited here so I might have to get shops to specially order in stuff - hence why I am trying to narrow it down as much as possible. But I fully appreciate I need to try. Like i said I am merely trying to compare the general difference in quality between the 2 guitars, and trying to work out if the price difference warrants the quality difference etc.
thanks
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If it is worth knowing it will be discussed here.
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-pauls/
Use the search and you can find everything you could possibly need to know.
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-pauls/77927-vintage-v100-v100-icon-icon-lemon-drop-questions.html
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I've played both. They're different. The Vintage feels "cheaper", but I'd be happy to gig either. I'd buy whichever sounded the best.
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I believe it does Dave, yep.
cheers, dave. Worth bearing in mind, then- if you're going for the custom model because you like the looks (over the LP standard look), but if you've already got a standard and are going for the custom for the spec, then that'd be a concern, kind of thing. :)
I'm aware that the amp is the main player in tone, but I do think guitars make quite a big difference - albeit subtley. At the moment I am drawn to the vintage les paul lemon drop, but how does it this compare to the MIJ tokais. I mean what is the difference in playbility, tone/wood quality and overall build quality. Has anyone played both a v100 and tokais and so could offer good comparissions?
i don't want to say too much, as i haven't tried that exact model of vintage (and I'm not sure if i've tried the exact tokai model you're talking about, either), but any MIJ tokai I've tried has been in a different league from any vintage I've tried. Like the difference between a (good) gibson and an epiphone.
i agree with everyone saying you really need to try them.
EDIT: just realised you said you lived on the IoW- that's different. I live in NI, and I get a bit annoyed when people tell me to try stuff for which we have no dealers (or chide me for buying online- again, when we have no dealers and when they haven't been in a lot of the local shops here which seem to have stock for 4 years without even so much as a string change :lol: ). And judging by the size of it, if anything the IoW is worse for getting to try gear than Northern Ireland is.
For me, personally (and bearing in mind that I haven't tried the exact models you're talking about, but I've tried quite a few vintages and MIJ tokais of other models), the MIJ Tokai would be worth the increase in price every single time, assuming I could afford it, of course. This is because, for me personally, the Vintage (any I've tried, anyway- we may get the rejects here in NI) isn't "good enough", whereas the Tokai is. Everyone's idea of what is "good enough" is different, though, and that's why you get such a variety of different opinions.
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Since you can't try the guitars and sound like you can stretch to the MIJ, get one of those, they are fine guitars.
The Vintage is good but get a Tokai and there will never be any doubt in your mind, you have a real Les Paul in all but name.
Do it. On your Credit Card. Now.
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Er hold on, the Vintage looks really nice here...
http://www.lauder.ca/vintage_peter_green_lemon_drop.htm
Why does the top go from maple to mahogany though after the finish is stripped?
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Cheap construction and veneers.
It looks a hell of a lot better as plain mahogany than with the finish that was on it. Why did they bother to smother that neat-grained wood behind a dodgy veneer (I know it looks alright in the photo but in the flesh it still looks like a photo, almost like someone designed it in MS paint.).
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That actually looks a lot nicer than I was expecting. A [marching red ants]LOT[/marching red ants] nicer.
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Another thread I've been watching with interest but not enough time to add to...
I'll add my vote to "if your budget stretches to a MIJ Tokai... go for it"
I've got a MIJ Love Rock, it's yummy. The only thing I'd replace it with is a real Gibson, and I'm not planning on hunting one down (or spending that much on a "Les Paul"!) :lol:
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HAVE A LOOK AT A SPEAR RD250 ,BUILD QUALITY AND PLAYABILITY ARE FANTASTIC (IMHO) LEFT HANDED AS WELL! THE NEAREST DEALER TO YOU IS FRET MUSIC IN SOUTHAMPTON (THEY ALSO STOCK TOKAI) CHECK OUT YOUTUBE FOR THE RD250 ! . HOPE THIS HELPS
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We're not DEAF! ;)
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Er hold on, the Vintage looks really nice here...
http://www.lauder.ca/vintage_peter_green_lemon_drop.htm
It does look good, but it also reveals some cost-cutting details - very thin veneer (or foto-flame?) top and a couple of knots in the mahogany. Seems to be a two piece, centre joined body though, which isn't half bad at the price.
I believe the Tokai would have a proper thick maple top, maybe with a flame veneer if it's a sunburst.
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The vintage lemon drop: does it have a maple top or maple venere or what. And whats the difference between them tonally?