Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: Searcher on March 11, 2010, 07:12:41 AM
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Hi guys. I wonder if someone can suggest a solution for this. I have a new Les Paul (Gary Moore BFG) and when I got it the bridge position was really thin and weak sounding. I thought that maybe it was just a lousy humbucker, but I've just dropped a warpig into the bridge and it still sounds bad. In fact, the neck pickup is just a P-90 and it's way louder than the warpig, even with the P-90 flush with the body and the pig up near the strings.
So it's not the pickup itself, but I'm guessing that the wiring is out of whack somewhere. I suck with wiring though and don't know where to look first. Any ideas?
Oh, I'm also totally new to guitars with two volume knobs, so I have a stupid question: in the middle position, is it normal that both volume controls can cut the sound completely?
Cheers.
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You could try wiring the bridge pickup straight to the output jack first. That way you'll be sure the problem is in the electronics (if it sounds good that way of course). :)
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Yes - in the middle position it is normal for either volume control to kill the sound
I wonder if something is shorting out - partially reducing the output of the bridge p/u
Either that or a dodgy switch perhaps
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You might want to have a look at the Seymour Duncan site at the Les Paul wiring diagrams. They helped me wire up my Mules.
... actually, if I remember correctly, Philly Q also helped me wire them up after I bolloxed it up first time around...
But the diagram should help with initial troubleshooting.
Mark.
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Hi there
Not really the main subject, but anyway, my two cents...
Even if it is the norm for each volume control to kill the sound in the middle, it can be wired NOT to do so... which is the way I prefer it, allows for more subtle blends imo, but the "normal" way has definitely it's advantages... in distortion mode without noise gate, you really might want to kill the sound in the middle with just one spin...
Cant help you with the thin sound, I'm able to do basic wirings and soldering, but when it does not work as it should after that, I'm f****d :lol:
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Thin sound could be ground wires shorting somewhere, or poor soldering joint somewhere, or a faulty volume pot?
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Is the Warpig 2-conductor or 4-conductor?
If it's 2, the braided shield could be shorting somewhere, as already mentioned. If it's 4, you may have the colours mixed up - how's it wired now?
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Thanks for the help!
The warpig is a 2-conductor pickup, but I'm pretty sure it's not the pickup itself, since the burstbucker that came in the guitar had the same problem and it'd be a sad coincidence for both pickups to be dodgy. Definitely possible, but I'm hoping that's not the case.
I wired it exactly as it was when I opened it up, so if the wiring is wrong it was wrong in the first place. But since it sucked in the first place, that's also possible. I'll trace the leads to see if there might be a short and if I don't see anything obvious I'll have a go at sending the pickup straight to the jack and see if that changes anything. If that doesn't help I guess I'll start looking for a bad connection or pot.
Thanks again, guys.
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Hi there
Not really the main subject, but anyway, my two cents...
Even if it is the norm for each volume control to kill the sound in the middle, it can be wired NOT to do so... which is the way I prefer it, allows for more subtle blends imo, but the "normal" way has definitely it's advantages... in distortion mode without noise gate, you really might want to kill the sound in the middle with just one spin...
Cant help you with the thin sound, I'm able to do basic wirings and soldering, but when it does not work as it should after that, I'm f****d :lol:
Yes rewiring to make it independant - not unlike on a jazz bass can be done
You reverse the tags on the vol pots that the input and output wires connect to , leaving the third tag soldered to earth
I still stand by the dodgy pot , dodgy switch or short circuit theory
Put a finger in the back of the guitar whilst playing and wiggle the wires to see if it gets any better
If it jumps into life you have an intermittent short in there somewhere...
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I haven't had a chance to do anything more than glance at it yet, but the braided pickup wires from both pickups are touching together in the channel through the body. Would that cause any issues? Wouldn't that more or less cause a connection between the two volume pots? Feel free to point and laugh at my electronics ignorance.
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That's just ground wire touching ground wire, it shouldn't do any harm.
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I'm just guessing here but is the 4-conductor humbucker hooked up correctly? If a warpig sounds weak at all then I'd be checking that the coils weren't out of phase or accidentally wired as split coils. Certainly if it's quieter than a P90 then I'd be wondering if it was wired in properly.
It's worth remembering that not all manufacturers use the same pickup wire colour codes - if you copied the original wiring colours with a new humbucker from a different manufacturer then it's possible that one coil is shorted out or out of phase. Refer to the BKP wiring diagram!
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Thanks again. :)
I was just about to start to mess with the wiring and then I thought it might be smart to take a photo of it before I did anything, just in case something is obviously out of place. If anything is easily noticed in a photo it would beat trial and error!
Here is the main wiring:
(http://www.markpawlyszyn.com/stuff/wiring.jpg)
And here is a pic of the kill switch area, too, if that helps:
(http://www.markpawlyszyn.com/stuff/killswitch.jpg)
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Oh, and there are two volumes and one tone pot on this guitar, which is probably obvious.
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May have nothing to do with the problem but on the kill switch the "bare wire" coming off the top contact looks very close to the centre contact of the switch (red wire). Is it shorting out?
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May have nothing to do with the problem but on the kill switch the "bare wire" coming off the top contact looks very close to the centre contact of the switch (red wire). Is it shorting out?
But that would affect both pickups
1) the earth braiding looks like it could do with a bit more solder
2) Take the 3 way switch out and blow air through the contacts whilst moving the toggle in case dust is stopping the contact ( or use servisol contact cleaner)
3) Failing that it could be a duff pot
I do feel that guitars like this could do with better shielding in the cavities
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To me, the soldering work looks very neat. The only thing I don't like is that cap.
The legs of that cap aren't isolated.
When closing the tap, you can accidentally move that cap and shortcut some hot lug near.
Additionally, if some leg is in the hot path, and that leg touches the cavity, you are also shorting there.
Independently of if this is your current issue or not, I suggest you to isolate those legs, with electrical tape or with some heatshink tube (neatest).
Check this kind of potential shorts. I usually try to isolate every hot lug, to avoid any accidental shortcut.
I had experience with guitars that worked fine just until the moment that I closed the tap. When mounting the tap, I had to push some wires inside and, some accidentally shortcutted some parts of the wiring.
Just my 2 cts.
Can you please attach some pictures of the rest of the wiring?
Better than this, can you please attach some sketch where you show how every wire is actually connected?
I miss something there, the link between volume and tone pots, also, I don't see very clear how did you wired the killing switch. Usually, kill switches have connected the jack's hot and ground, as well as the hot output of the circuit, but It seems to me as if it was linked to the tone pot, instead to the pickup's selector.
A diagram, even hand-made would be very helpful to catch the bug.
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On a typical guitar with 2 pickups , 2 vols and one tone such as a flying V or explorer the output from the switch goes first to the tone pot and then out to the jack.
All they have done with the kill switch is divert the wire to that switch first, allowing the signal to be killed off or directed back to the tone pot and subsequently the output
I don't disagree with having insulation on the capacitor legs but it is nowhere near the signal path for the bridge pickup, so is unlikely to be the culprit here.
Reading carefully what Searcher has said - the neck pickup works 100% fine and doesn't cut out so we needn't concern ourselves with the bit of the circuit that is common to both pickups as it can't be at fault or else the neck pickup would suffer like the bridge one is ( so ignore the tone pot, the kill switch and the jack
The problem exists somewhere on the signal path from the output wire of the bridge pickup via the bridge volume control through to the switch.
You can eliminate components one by one and get to the source of the problem
1)Ensure that the bridge pickup is well connected to the ground - re-solder it to the pot - if the problem goes away it was just that the pickup wasn't earthed properly........then try wiring the hot from the bridge pickup to the input to the tone control (Where the white wire goes) - this will show whether the pickup is working ok.
2)If pickup is ok connect the hot wire of the bridge pickup directly to the uppermost tag of the switch (as seen in the picture) - you are bypassing the volume pot by doing this . If your pickup is still louder than it was before the pot or it's connections are to blame.
3) if it is still quiet the problem more than likely is the switch -
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On a typical guitar with 2 pickups , 2 vols and one tone such as a flying V or explorer the output from the switch goes first to the tone pot and then out to the jack.
All they have done with the kill switch is divert the wire to that switch first, allowing the signal to be killed off or directed back to the tone pot and subsequently the output
Thank you, I thought it was a 2 vols + 2 tone guitar. Now it's clear.
I don't disagree with having insulation on the capacitor legs but it is nowhere near the signal path for the bridge pickup, so is unlikely to be the culprit here.
As I said, not necesarelly his current issue but, something that could be an issue in future, specially when braided conductors are all around. I just wanted to point out that could have other potentially risky points there.
By example, that big drop of solder so close to the pot's lugs. It could put in contact the grounded lug with th
e hot lug. A frontal view of the lugs should clarify that.
One more thing to check is what is unseen. The fabric of the bridge pickup could be peeled off because of the heat produced while soldering the grounds to this pot, so, the bridge's hot could be in contact with the yellow ground visible under this wire...
So, check also for peel off wires, free strands or any other suspicious thing also in the unseen side.
Reading carefully what Searcher has said - the neck pickup works 100% fine and doesn't cut out so we needn't concern ourselves with the bit of the circuit that is common to both pickups as it can't be at fault or else the neck pickup would suffer like the bridge one is ( so ignore the tone pot, the kill switch and the jack
The problem exists somewhere on the signal path from the output wire of the bridge pickup via the bridge volume control through to the switch.
You can eliminate components one by one and get to the source of the problem
1)Ensure that the bridge pickup is well connected to the ground - re-solder it to the pot - if the problem goes away it was just that the pickup wasn't earthed properly........then try wiring the hot from the bridge pickup to the input to the tone control (Where the white wire goes) - this will show whether the pickup is working ok.
2)If pickup is ok connect the hot wire of the bridge pickup directly to the uppermost tag of the switch (as seen in the picture) - you are bypassing the volume pot by doing this . If your pickup is still louder than it was before the pot or it's connections are to blame.
3) if it is still quiet the problem more than likely is the switch -
If everything seems to be well grounded and the wiring seems correct then, I bet for that suspicious drop of solder or a fried pot (bridge's volume pot). Those big drops of solder can result in a very overheaten pot.
I'd first try the pickup hot directly to the pickup' selector, to overpass the volume pot.
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Hey, thanks so much for the detailed responses! I printed this thread out for reference and we messed with it today and now it works - yay! :) Thank God for that. I'm so sick of having the touch of death for electronic stuff. It drives me nuts.
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Hey, thanks so much for the detailed responses! I printed this thread out for reference and we messed with it today and now it works - yay! :) Thank God for that. I'm so sick of having the touch of death for electronic stuff. It drives me nuts.
You are a bad boy, dude. :x
WHAT WAS THE ISSUE, THEN? :tfrag:
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Hey, thanks so much for the detailed responses! I printed this thread out for reference and we messed with it today and now it works - yay! :) Thank God for that. I'm so sick of having the touch of death for electronic stuff. It drives me nuts.
Congratulations on getting sorted and glad we could help
That's one of the many good things about a forum like this........
We are all curious now as to what fixed the issue in the wiring - if you know which step cured the issue.
Personally speaking - I would have liked to have seen more screening in that guitar - but I guess Gibson dont feel the need for it.
I am a believer in good screening (as well as good wiring) to keep noise to a minimum
I will be doing a feature on this issue soon - so keep an eye out for it
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EYE :gne:
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Yeah, this guitar is totally unshielded and hardly finished at all. I think it's Gibson's answer to their quality control issues: "Yeah, umm, it's meant to be that way . . . it's a feature!" The guitar feels really nice to play, though. Something about the rough finish appeals to me, too, in a semi-masochistic way. No splinters yet. :lol:
As for the pickup I think something just wasn't sitting right. We cleaned up and resoldered the main two joints on the pot. It has a really big sound! (I have the pickup sitting closer to the strings now, too). I dragged out my Strat with a Sinner in the bridge and now that sounds thin and weak by comparison. :D
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Yeah, this guitar is totally unshielded and hardly finished at all. I think it's Gibson's answer to their quality control issues: "Yeah, umm, it's meant to be that way . . . it's a feature!"
I like the way there are mahogany "whiskers" all over the routing in the control cavity. They made no effort at all, did they? :lol:
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Not so you'd notice. :|
Actually, I'm having more troubles with the thing. The truss rod doesn't work. And as soon as you look at the guitar it loses its tuning. I think this will be the last time I buy a guitar without playing it first!
So, err, anyone wanna buy a really nice Gary Moore Les Paul? :P The tuning is meant to be this way, honest.