Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: _tom_ on March 22, 2010, 09:43:03 PM
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I'm sure I've posted a million of these threads by now :lol: Anyway my Laney GH50L really needs new preamp valves as sometimes it loses gain/saturation when playing. They're about 2-3 years old now so I reckon its about time they got replaced..
Any suggestions? I only really want to order from UK, places such as Watford Valves or Hot Rox.. I just need 3 12AX7s for V1, 2 and 3. I remember a while ago I was gonna get Tung Sols (meant to do wonders for fizz and clarity) but heard bad things about their reliability?
May just end up going for a trio of JJs as their prices are nice, but are gold pins worth the extra cash?
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I know HTH will disagree, but I'm very happy with good old JJs. A regular set of 3 should be fine, or if you want to try a gold pin do what I do and go for one in V1, and regular JJs for V2 and V3.
Oh, and I use HotRox :)
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i use electro harmonix in mine and they are fine, very reliable and well made tube, oh and use hotrox, use watford valves if you want to wait weeks for your order!
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Are there any differences between gold pin and normal JJs or is it just a marketing "ploy"?
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Another vote for whatever Hot Rox have got in, as they are nice people to deal with - and I can't afford W***ford Valves.
( Richard Branson's kids can't afford W***ord valves ) . :(
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JJ's high gain ECC803 S is my favourite modern tube, I get mine here when I put in an amp parts order: http://metroamp.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_40&products_id=325 (http://metroamp.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_40&products_id=325)
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Are there any differences between gold pin and normal JJs or is it just a marketing "ploy"?
less drive, and supposedly more balance triodes.
you can hear a difference between those and the others I think but i only use them in V1
p.s. ive ordered from hotrox a few times, and got weirdly matched valves, the wrong vavles entirely, and i think they cost a lot for shipping. ive had better/more consistent results with watford valves
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Tung Sol, Russian Mullard rebrands, and Electro-Harmonix are all cr@p.
If you're not gonna go with NOS valves, for the preamp stages, I would recommend JJ, though they have been having some reliability issues of late as well.
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I bought a JJ ECC83 and only one half of it worked so I can't comment
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I just got a quad of Harma Retro ECC83's from Watford valves along with a pair of Philips 6L6WGB's and I have to say my amp (Cornford MK50 black chassis) sounds more awesome than it did before... I can use more gain yet have more defination and clarity! They are supposed to be a Mullard re-issue and to be honest I wouldn't really know the what they are, I just needed to get my amp re-valved and biased as I hadn't got it done since I bought it last year. As far as reliability goes I can't say yet, but they come with a 6 month guarantee.
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I just got a quad of Harma Retro ECC83's from Watford valves along with a pair of Philips 6L6WGB's and I have to say my amp (Cornford MK50 black chassis) sounds more awesome than it did before... I can use more gain yet have more defination and clarity! They are supposed to be a Mullard re-issue and to be honest I wouldn't really know the what they are, I just needed to get my amp re-valved and biased as I hadn't got it done since I bought it last year. As far as reliability goes I can't say yet, but they come with a 6 month guarantee.
I fairness, they do sell 'Pukka' stuff - and can tell you in great detail , why you might want to chose each item - albeit being an expensive experience sometimes.
I also bought a quad of the Philips 6L6WGB from them for my Laney LH50RII - and they made it an altogether different / better amp altogether. As you noted, they give greater detail on both Clean an Hot channels - and when you do push them, the point between clean and overdrive has a lovely soft compress feeling at the point of saturation. They allowed the amp, and it's inherent circuit design , it to 'reveal' itself . Ditto for a Watford Valves Philips 5751 in the V1 position.
I had in fact amassed a large stock of their N.O.S. and Harma specials for my amps , back when I could afford it. :)
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I'm about to replace an awfully microphonic JJ set in a combo this morning for a set of TAD 7025 tubes. i heard good things about them (three different amp techs locally and unlocally recommended them to me for heavy crunch) i'll let you know how that goes. i also got a quad of them to put in my traynor amp this weekend, that'll be a good swap, it's currently a mix and match of sovteks and EH swapped around until i got a sound that i like. crazy how the order of valves makes a difference
you guys are corrupting me. i just used ''tubes'' and ''Valves'' in the same post. next thing you know i'll be a tea addict ;)
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My Watford Valves order shipped quite quickly - they were closed for a week when I ordered but I got the order the day after their reopening date.
I got a JAN 5751 Cryo & some JJ ECC83S DR250s for the gain valves in my Savage.
It's been a very good swap, see here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20211.msg274587#msg274587) for my initial impressions...
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Just an Update. The TAD valves did the trick. tamed an awfully microphonic and screechy amp. mind you, this is for metal, and the goal was for the tube to be resistant to hi gain from the amp itself (this kid should learn about the values of boosting your guitar instead of getting it all from the amp...especially a combo!) i could crank it all the way up with no sign of oscillation. I'll get back with my findings in my own amp this weekend.
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BIg fan of TAD valves here, TAD in the pre, Svetlana EL34s in the power... not impressed with EH valves myself, the sound never appealed to me.
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The TAD stuff looks a lot like rebadged JJs............
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i just decided to try one of them fancy philips 12AX7's in my SLO build, ordered some JJ's too as the odd crackle from my amp may be from my stock of used/spare 12AX7's of various types.
TAD's valves have got better than they used to be right?
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The TAD stuff looks a lot like rebadged JJs............
They're not. They're Chinese-made junk.
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I have TADs in the Laney at the minute. Sound ok but I've heard there are better options for a GH. I had a JAN/Philips 5751 in V1 for a bit which took some of the gain away but gave a smoother sound. Sadly it died :(
How about a Tung Sol in V1 then JJs in V2+3? All 12AX7s/ECC83s..
Power amp valves are Svet. Winged C EL34s btw, had em in about 2 years but only had the amp at proper volume for probably about a month in total so they should still be ok?
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=C= are the closest you can get to a modern-made Mullard. Use 'em until they die!
There are lots of inexpensive 5751s out there if you look. JAN Philips can be had at a reasonable price, less so the GE 5751 (I have GEs in the V1 slot of both of my gigging amps).
If you're gonna go modern 12AX7, just go with JJs. They're inexpensive enough to get an extra one in case you have reliability issues.
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Oh, another option is to get Tonegrinders, but I think they will be cost-prohibitive.
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Oh, another option is to get Tonegrinders, but I think they will be cost-prohibitive.
I would never get those things.
its not a new idea, and whatever that guy has inside them doesn't warrant the cost.
I read a huge thread someone in work put me onto... hifi nerds/hi end tube hifi builders discussing this product. nobody could find a patent for it, they guy himself won't give an accurate picture of how it works (which I guess is fair), but its not going to be anything more than some solid state circuitry that is defo not worth $100. (yes, standard tonegrinders are $89 and custom ones are $99)
the audio samples ive heard are all tonegrinders in V1 and then valves throughtout, whatever amp. I don't think they can be used in certain amps, maybe ones with higher plate voltages for the preamp valves.
It all sounds a bit too much like cobwebs and magic to me. the fetron has been around a long time. I guess a lot of work was put into solid state replacement on tubes, and this guy has something magical (and expensive) that emulates a tube that nobody else has been able to make?
I just don't buy it. I emailed him once though to find out more and I didn't find out anything. just sales pitch.
best we could figure out in work, is that he has some kind of a FET arrangement probably set in epoxy in a plastic tube shaped casing.
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I own a set of Tonegrinders and use em. They are fantastic. I also own (and have used) lots of NOS and vintage valves. Each have their place.
The tonegrinders are not plastic and are not 'fake' valves. They are phenomenally well made, way better construction than any glass valves I've ever owned.
I honestly don' t know WHAT they are. But they sound great and work, unlike the "Mullard", Tung Sol, Electro-Harmonix, TAD, etc etc which are just a waste of money.
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My understanding was they are solid state. immune to microphonics? immune to degradation from mechanical rattle? certainly points to solid state right? do they get hot? the outer may act as a heat sync for whatever is inside.
they might work but from the tone samples on the site, I don't think they are better (i dont fully trust tone samples though. sometimes they make good things sound bad). you might like em, and with everything else tone wise, thats cool.
i would be interested in trying one for sure. but id also like to tear one apart.
a good 12AX7 can be pretty inexpensive and can last a LONG time. even if they fail a decent replacement can be found easily. I did some maths just based on decent sounding current production tubes, and the cost of one tonegrinder over here would keep me in tubes for some crazy amount of years given how often they break down on me.
I did send all my questions and concerns to the guy at wattgrinder after our initial discussion and he never answered any of them.
so in conclusion i find them interesting. its good to know you have experience with them, but for the price they are i'll never buy one.
plus i agree. I had a new mullard come to me and it was microphonic. i also don't like tong sol, EH, or TAD.
I've never had a broken or microphonic JJ 12AX7 yet.
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the gold pin thing is cr@p as is the cryo thing - the only benefit gold pins may give is that the pins wont oxidise in the sockets (which is cured by pulling the valve out and re-inserting it). Sound wise there is no difference.
Personally, I use NOS Philips JAN 12AX7s and 5751s in V1 - they are easy to get on ebay, as almost as cheap as new valves. Failing that I personally like the sound of New Sensor (i.e. Russian) 'Mullards'.
But to be honest given you've had your pre-amp valves for 3 years, they shouldn't be anyway near burnt out yet. Better to change your power amp valves.
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given you've had your pre-amp valves for 3 years, they shouldn't be anyway near burnt out yet. Better to change your power amp valves.
Maybe. Depends on how hard you push the preamp valves. A strong boost into V1 can eat up preamp valves with a quickness.
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the gold pin thing is cr@p as is the cryo thing - the only benefit gold pins may give is that the pins wont oxidise in the sockets (which is cured by pulling the valve out and re-inserting it). Sound wise there is no difference.
I replaced a standard JJ in V1 in a dual rec with a gold pin JJ. There was a very big difference. im not on about microphonics. just in tone. It took some horrible fizz right out the amp.
I have a new 'mullard' kicking around and an old one in V1 on my sommatone. The older one is constructed differently.
the new one was microphonic. I lashed it out. the sommatone outlaw is incredibly sensitive to whatever you put in V1, its really cool to mess with that and really hear the difference in tubes.
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The TAD stuff looks a lot like rebadged JJs............
They're not. They're Chinese-made junk.
I disagree, just because they're Chinese made, is not an indication of their quality-- I think i've had more problems with JJ preamp valves, than any other manufacturer. TAD valves are selected from whichever source they come from, and i've had no issues with them at all.
I keep meaning to do a 12ax7 shootout/test with some of our test gear at work.... maybe i'll have to try and get hold of some valves from various manufacturers and come up with data to compare them all-- might be quite an interesting experiment?
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The TAD stuff looks a lot like rebadged JJs............
They're not. They're Chinese-made junk.
I disagree, just because they're Chinese made, is not an indication of their quality--
You misquote me. They are junk. They are made in China. I never said that they are junk BECAUSE they're made in China. They would be junk if they were made here in the US.
Junk is junk!
The only reason their country of origin came up is because Twinfan said they look like rebranded JJs, which are not made in China and, incidently, are NOT junk.
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I know HTH will disagree, but I'm very happy with good old JJs. A regular set of 3 should be fine, or if you want to try a gold pin do what I do and go for one in V1, and regular JJs for V2 and V3.
Oh, and I use HotRox :)
ha ha, am I that predictable? :lol:
Its no secret that I don't like JJ valves, I find their ECC83 to be flat, boring, totally uninspiring and able to make an otherwise good amp sound like sh*t. Last time I used the EH ECC83, I thought it was a much better valve than the JJ.
I always tell people to get NOS (or part-used) valves - Mullard, Brimar, Mazda, RCA, GE, Siemens - there are any number of great old ECC83s you can pick up on ebay for the same price as you'd pay for current production stuff.
I find it surprising that you (Dave) are happy with JJ valves - you spend a fortune on guitars/pickups/amps/speakers then kill the tone with those valves. Have you tried some NOS preamp valves in your Orion? - I bet it would take that amp to a new level.
Personally, I find that good valves make/break an amp's tone.
Oh, and I'm with Dave on Hotrox - never had a problem with them and their pricing beats Watford Valves.
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To be fair, a tube i was replacing (and the worst culprit of squealing) was a JJ. so the kid didn't want anymore JJ's in there. one bitten twice shy eh!
seems like tubes have alot of opinions these days. i was speaking to an old amp tech (over 70 years old!) and he was saying he couldn't get over how much Ruby power tubes had improved in the past three years. i was a bit surprised, but this guy has usually been right on the money for all problems i've encountered...
what makes a tube junk anyhow?
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Tubes are very different, depending on which amp they're in, especially Pres.
JJs are Ok, but I feel they tend to sound nasal in higher gain circuits. They do have low noise though.
I love Tung-Sols for when it should be transparent and tight, but they shouldn't be in cascade follower stages, as they can't take the voltages or something. I would also say that 1 in 3 is microphonic, so you could have to swap around which goes in V1/V2.
If you're looking for a thicker tone, go with Penta G12AX7M (they are selected/relabeled Groove Tube Mullard RIs).
In V1 I really like the New Sensor Mullard RI, they are expensive but a great tube.
In Phase inverters I settled to only use Chinese 9th gen now. I usually go fot Penta from Doug's Tubes.
I suggest to get in touch with Doug (Doug's Tubes). He is the Tim Mills of tubes, if you shoot him an email with what you want, he will tell you what to get and ship you great quality. I also ever only got PERFECTLY matched power tubes from him and never did one of his pres go bad. His prices are even after shipping and customs still competitive, too.
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Its no secret that I don't like JJ valves, I find their ECC83 to be flat, boring, totally uninspiring and able to make an otherwise good amp sound like sh*t. Last time I used the EH ECC83, I thought it was a much better valve than the JJ.
I always tell people to get NOS (or part-used) valves - Mullard, Brimar, Mazda, RCA, GE, Siemens - there are any number of great old ECC83s you can pick up on ebay for the same price as you'd pay for current production stuff.
I find it surprising that you (Dave) are happy with JJ valves - you spend a fortune on guitars/pickups/amps/speakers then kill the tone with those valves. Have you tried some NOS preamp valves in your Orion? - I bet it would take that amp to a new level.
I've got some old Brimars that came in a Klipp I bought several years ago. They're dull, flat and have no life. Just because they're old doesn't mean they're good! I have some old Phillips valves in my 45/100 that also came in a second hand amp, but they don't sound any better than JJs to me. I'm only using them to "use them up" :lol:
Martin has a few old valves too, Mullards etc, and neither of us were that impressed. We found you could get the same sort of tone out of a decent, lowish gain, new valve. Such as the JJs!
It's horses for courses, and everyone should try what's available out there if they can, but I personally do not feel the need to spend a bloody fortune hunting down 60 year old valves that are a complete gamble.
Also, in my experience I've found EH valves to be more prone to microphonics and generally cr@pping out when I don't want them to. The Tung Sols are OK, if a little brighter than JJs, but they didn't blow me away.
As a final note, Martin uses JJs in all his amp builds. He's built a fair few now, and obviously he and I use several of his models fitted with JJs for gigging, and I've yet to hear anyone say his amps sound like sh*t......
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I second this. I have tried Mullards in both the pre-amp and output stage of my MJW. They do have a different sound, but it's not something that can't be achieved without a bit of EQ or trying a lower gain valve in the pre-amp section
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The same valve can sound amazing in some amp and awful in other. Even, same valve can sound fine in one position and wrong in other. Also, a valve can sound good if there is only one but bad if you put two or more of same type in different positions.
There are valves that most of people says "that's the valve" and, there are valves that most of people says "this is cr@p" but, experimentation gives you the real thing.
To me, there are two cathegory of amps: vintage and modern.
Vintage were designed thinking on the valves that were available at that time so, NOS valves usually do the trick.
Modern amps are usually designed taking into account current production valves and, usually, the more reliable AND cheap of them.
So, you can be surprised swapping cheap valves with expensiver valves and go wrong with the tone.
Also, there are two main voices: american and british. For american voiced amps, you wanted some valve with similar specifications to RCA types. for british ones, you usually want Mullard like.
Short history:
I swapped the EL84 tubes in two amps, a Koch Studiotone combo (mine) and in a Fender Blues jr. (friend's).
The Koch had TAD EL-84M stock (thick as a brick but no character), I throw there a TAD EL84-STR (some kind of mix between a JJ and an M) and the sound was improved.
So, I tried to do the same in the Blues Jr. No way, it sounded as cr@p. I checked then JJ's there and same results. Then, because it was the only other valve pair I had around, I tried a Sovet EL84 (one of the cheapests ones) and, man, the amp suddently went alive and sounding as heaven.
Swapped also chinesse valves with other types and, I finally left the chinesse there in positions V2 and V3, while the Tung Sol did the trick in V1 for the Blues Jr, I had to left the original 7025-Highgrade in the Koch, since the Tung Sol sounded way brighter and the JJs way darker.
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Without wishing to get too drawn into the "best valve" morass.....! :wink:
The thing with valves, which some people seem to miss, is that they are very subjective.
There are no "good" or "bad" valves. (With the obvious exclusion of particularly noisy, unreliable or weak examples).
The same's very much true of speakers, and by extension, amps in general.
I find it hard to reconcile HTH's view of JJ's with my own experience, which of course proves nothing except what I just said! :) I like JJ's, and use them pretty much exclusively, unless asked to use somehting else, which rarely happens. We used them virtually exclusively at Matamp and went through boxloads, with very few problems.
I've done direct back-to-back comparisons with JJ's and healthy (Alan!) NOS Mullards, as well as other brands, and in my own amps, which could have anything they wanted, I use JJ's.
The answer is: buy some and try them. Use the ones you prefer. 8)
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I don't subscribe to the school of thought whereby if it's old, it MUST be good. It just happens that the valves made during the golden era of their production also happen to be the best that were ever made in terms of tone and also reliability. You might spend £60.00 on a NOS Mullard ECC83, but that valve will last a LONG time - I can't imagine any current production ECC83s still going strong in an amp 30 years down the line. Actually, I KNOW they won't be, because I see failures all the time.
The Brimars you had may have been at the end of their useful life - even NOS valves wear out eventually. Your description of the tone of Brimars is nothing like what I've found; and I have lots of Brimar ECC83s. I find that they have a signature tone (focused/pronounced midrange grind plus an aggressive overall attack) that is consistent; much like most brands of NOS valves. My own experience does not reflect that its a cr@p shoot, I know exactly what Brimars or Mullards will sound like when I buy them, same with the American valves.
I personally think that the difference between some nice NOS ECC83s and ANY current production valve is night and day - like the difference between DiMarzios and BKPs. DiMarzios are nice enough and will get the job done, but BKPs will give you that last bit of tone nirvana.
It would be a boring world if we all thought the same thing. Plus, it leaves more nice old valves for me 8)
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Of current production 12AX7 valves:
Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.
TAD 7025-S (Mullard style), seems to be more voiced like Telefunken ones (instead of Mullard) so, it works really nice in american voiced amps and, specially good in blackface types.
Tung Sol, is one of the best soundings, very 3D but, EQ is altered to boost bass and trebles. It's some kind of Mullard sound with the added gain of a chinesse valve.
JAN Philips 12AX7WA sounds good, but it's very sensitive to amp's EQ, sounds better with tone controls in mid position. Can go boomy with wrong EQ. (not new production but, easy to get)
Sovtek 12AX7-LPS, nice sounding valve but, very prone to microphony so, a bad election for combo amps.
Mullard re-issue, sounds good bad flat compared to Tung Sol (as NOS Mullards do). Better for hi-fi applications.
Svetlana 12AX7, smoother than EH, less gain than Tung Sol, well balanced.
JAN Philips 5751, probably the best souding one in simple designed amps, lower gain but whole tone.
Sovtek 5751, in Reverb Drivers or for Tweed like amps (12AY7 or 12AT7 substitute)
Tesla JJ/ECC83S, well balanced, not harmonically rich, durable. Some kind of flat valve that helps to better compare the changes of swapping other positions.
Electro Harmonix 12AX7, Well balanced, good in any position, the valve that works wether other valves don't do it, the valve that solves microphony issues. So, a good valve to have always in stock, as a last resource.
Sovtek 12AX7WA/WB, very poorly sounding, low gain, very reliable (usually stock in some new amps).
This all, more or less, is sums up the info I`ve got from reviews from The Tube Store.
TAD reviews could be biassed, since they re-label valves and they design some others.
Same with Harma, Groove Tubes or any other re-labeler.
The reviews of The Tube Store match my own experience with some of those valves.
And, as I said, there is no recipe for every disease so, you have to experience your self how do like the changes.
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This thread shows that I forgot how much of a hassle buying new valves is :x
tbh I'm quite happy with the current tone so just tempted to get TADs again.. I've heard there are better for Laneys though which was why I asked, but I don't really know what I want to change about the tone anyway :lol:
leerocker, are you using the EH valves in a Laney?
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Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.
I've not sure that Ei ECC83s are still being made? - about 6 years back they were all the rage (their EL84s too).
Their quality control was absolutely cr@p and all the ones I ever bought went noisy or microphonic very quickly. I even went as far as buying some primo-tested ones from The Tube Store that were tested for low microphonics - they did sound pretty close to my old Mullards and Brimars, but the midrange wasn't quite as crunchy. That was until they went microphonic a month or two later.
If they could have improved the QC, these would have been killer ECC83s.
I had similar results with their EL84 - great tone; for a few weeks.
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Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.
I've not sure that Ei ECC83s are still being made? - about 6 years back they were all the rage (their EL84s too).
Their quality control was absolutely cr@p and all the ones I ever bought went noisy or microphonic very quickly. I even went as far as buying some primo-tested ones from The Tube Store that were tested for low microphonics - they did sound pretty close to my old Mullards and Brimars, but the midrange wasn't quite as crunchy. That was until they went microphonic a month or two later.
If they could have improved the QC, these would have been killer ECC83s.
I had similar results with their EL84 - great tone; for a few weeks.
Yes, as far as I know they are dicontinued but, you can still grab some with all the risks you already experienced.
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In V1 I really like the New Sensor Mullard RI, they are expensive but a great tube.
I like this tube too
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Ei's are not being made anymore, but i know of a store, that has a limited amount (now, dont ask how many) of them in stock for about 26€ + tax & shipping a pop (ecc81 82 and 83) a quartet of el-84 for 90, kt-90 for 265 .. or a pair of siemens el-34's for 200
they stock a cr@pload of =C='s wither ... related to that, what to expect from =C= 12ax7's ?
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I have a box with just a couple of spare pre valves and I just found a couple of Ei's, where were they made? Until this thread I didn't know of them! Also, I didn't know that Harma were rebranded valves either!
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Ei were made in Niš, Serbia (Yugoslavia).. stopped production in.. '06 .. they're more or less upgrades of telefunken audio tubes.. high quality .. aparently :P :D
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Really? :lol:
I just threw them in a box! Thanks for the info, maybe I'll try them in a JTM 45 to see what the deal is.
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Ei's are not being made anymore, but i know of a store, that has a limited amount (now, dont ask how many) of them in stock for about 26€ + tax & shipping a pop (ecc81 82 and 83) a quartet of el-84 for 90, kt-90 for 265 .. or a pair of siemens el-34's for 200
they stock a cr@pload of =C='s wither ... related to that, what to expect from =C= 12ax7's ?
I have some of the very first Svetlana Winged=C= 12AX7s back when they first came out - they're not too bad of a valve at all.
Just to save anyone wasting their money - please don't buy EI ECC83s, they go microphonic and/or noisy very quickly. Save your money and go with some other preamp valves (pretty much anything else would be better).
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I got 6 months out of a brand new quad of =C= 6L6's in my Twin, bought from Watford Valves. I paid extra for the =C= brand and advice from WV. I replaced them with TAD small bottle 6L6s which is what my tech had in stock. First point is they are cheaper in ££$$ than =C=, second they sound the same and thirdly they have been in and gigged hard for over a year!
My advice is to avoid the cheapest, and the premium valves and stay with the mid priced lot.
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I got 6 months out of a brand new quad of =C= 6L6's in my Twin, bought from Watford Valves. I paid extra for the =C= brand and advice from WV. I replaced them with TAD small bottle 6L6s which is what my tech had in stock. First point is they are cheaper in ££$$ than =C=, second they sound the same and thirdly they have been in and gigged hard for over a year!
My advice is to avoid the cheapest, and the premium valves and stay with the mid priced lot.
I've used some of those small bottle TAD 6L6s in a Bluesbreaker - sounded very nice. Can't say how they faired for reliability, but its been over three years since I fitted those valves for the owner and he ain't been back (he's a mate of a mate, so if anything had been wrong, I'd have got the amp back).
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I'm still lost as to what to buy :lol: Are there any other GH50L users here any more and if so what are you using?
JJs are really cheap at £8.95 a valve. So they're most tempting, seeing as I'm eating up my overdraft already :(
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Try 'em Tom - what's the worst that can happen?
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I lose money :lol: I need em to be working/sounding good for a gig next weekend as well so would prefer to get it right first time!
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Martin and I gig JJs all the time mate - you'll be fine!
Ignore grumpy old HTH ;) :lol:
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EI valves were made in Serbia, as far as I'm aware off the old Phillips tooling.
There were a load of EI 12AX7s floating round a few years ago at a very reasonable price, and so I bought a batch. Most were very microphonic (to the point of being unusable), although the acceptable ones did sound good. It's interesting that these are now being offered as NOS at a premium price!
I used to use EH-12AX7s which I thought sounded great, and probably only had a couple of rejects out of 300 valves. However these were all from an older production run. Talking to one of our suppliers apparently there have been problems with all the Russian spiral filament pre-amp valves, which include the EH and Tungsol 12AX7s (I expect they all use a common filament assembly), especially in amps with cathode followers where the cathode is often at greater than 100V, and I expect these problems are due to break down in insulation between the cathode and filament.
I tried some "specially selected" current production Chinese 12AX7s as wasn't that impressed (they weren't that cheap either), so I have now moved over to using the JJ-ECC803s, which is a long plate 12AX7. This is slightly more microphonic than the standard JJ-ECC83, but sounds very good, and I've not had any rejects yet after using installing about 70.
I've not had the best experiences with the standard JJ-ECC83. A couple of years ago I had a spate of amps coming in with JJ-ECC83s installed in them that had either failed or become very noisy. Of course these might have all come from a single bad batch.
Given the ubiquitous nature of the 12AX7 in guitar amps, it still surprises me that no-one can make a consistent 12AX7.
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Martin and I gig JJs all the time mate - you'll be fine!
Ignore grumpy old HTH ;) :lol:
lmao, I'm coming up 35 in May and am loosing any kind of patience already - my tolerance levels are hitting an all time low. Ten years ago I'd have sugar coated some of my opinions, now I just can't be arsed and say exactly what I mean.
I still say JJs are pretty ordinary, ymmv etc...
If you can get this Mazda ECC83 for a tenner, you'll be doing very well... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mazda-ecc83-12ax7-vintage-valve_W0QQitemZ270550106001QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item3efe0aff91#ht_500wt_1182
Or this pair of RCA 12AX7s for just over £16.00 each... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-RCA-6681-12AX7A-ECC83-Audio-Amplifier-Guitar-tubes_W0QQitemZ220578282295QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item335b7d7b37#ht_500wt_1182
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I still say JJs are pretty ordinary, ymmv etc...
Probably suits the Laney just fine then, as I find it has a pretty ordinary tone anyway! Nothing really special, just consistently sounds good for the kinda stuff I play - it doesn't "wow" it just does its job and does it well :) So long as it doesn't sound "bad" I'm fine :lol:
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I'm still lost as to what to buy :lol: Are there any other GH50L users here any more and if so what are you using?
JJs are really cheap at £8.95 a valve. So they're most tempting, seeing as I'm eating up my overdraft already :(
well, i got a LH50R and am getting a set of JJ's for the preamp and =C= 6L6 for the power stage.
if i were in your shoes and had a GH .. i'd flick the bias switch to the EL-34 setting and get a pair of KT-88's :D .. and JJ's in the preamp :P
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Don't know if this is any good:
http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf (http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf)
I'm just going to read it now as I'm thinking of replacing the 12AX7 in my Blackheart Little Giant.
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... and =C= 6L6 for the power stage.
[/quote]
I may have had a bad Quad, but i'd steer away from them, save yourself some money at the same time. JJ or TAD, especially if you gig regular and don't take spares with you.
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I reckon I'd (and will) be going for the Harma Retros from WV.
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Well I went with a 3 JJ 12AX7s in the end. Hopefully will arrive in time, not sure how quick Hotrox are as I haven't used em in ages.
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Hooray! A decisions! :lol:
HotRox are usually pretty quick in my experience.
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I might be looking to change the pre amp valves in my VC30 so will have a think, do some research and see what happens. I have JJ's in there at the moment and have been very happy with them but there is a bit of hissing action going on. I'll mess with them when I get the chance to see if indeed it is a pre amp valve- having just written all that, I haven't changed the power amp valves since I've had the amp. Decisions decisions.
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FWIW, I just got a Harma Cryo high gain preamp kit (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=2112) for my Marshall (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20645.0) from Watford Valves. They arrived two days after I ordered them & first impressions of the sound are very positive.
(38th - they do two kits for the VC30 too - high (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=2393) & low (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=2392) gain :))
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Ordered from Hotrox first thing on Monday and still not arrived. Have a gig tomorrow. Not very impressed! Suppose it's my fault for not paying a bit extra for quicker delivery.
Mr 38th, I've always found my GH to be quite noisy/hissy. So maybe its just the amp, unless the problem has only just started.
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Sorry to hear that Tom - maybe the Easter hols have screwed things up?
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Yeah, probably. As I said I should have paid extra for quicker service.. It also means I don't have a wah as I ordered a new switch from the same place :(
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I run a swapping dance in my Night Train just yesterday, comparing the stock valves (Sovtek 12AX7-WA) against the following:
- JJ ECC83S
- Electro Harmonix 12AX7
- Tung Sol 12AX7
- TAD 7025-S
JJ ECC83S were an improvement respect of that Sovtek 12AX7-WA. I found the valves cristal clear, well defined and really hard to break up but, unfortunatelly, they sounded too trebly for my amp. I guess those will work in darked voiced amps and when the maximum clean headroom is a must.
EH 12AX7 was the more ballanced valve, slight rolled off low and high ends, warm, silky, clear, defined and with a correct behaviour under high distortion. It broke earlier than the JJ but later than the other two. Same gap I felt from Sovtek to JJ was felt with JJ's and EH. I liked a lot this valve, very natural sounding, no special character just in the center point.
Tung Sol 12AX7, in the same league as EH, slightly darker in low gain, treblier in high gain settings. Powerfull sound, detailed and with balls. The EQ boostes a little bit the bass frequencies and clearly more the high frequencies. Breaks earlier than the EH but later than the TAD. Nice valve also, IMHO.
TAD 7025-S (Mullard-like, as per their description). In the same league as the EH and Tung Sol. Very detailed and well textured in low gain settings. Breaks earlier than all the rest and does it in the most special way. There is some kind of small dust motes in the overdrived sound that remembers me the way as a cranked JCM800 or JTM45 do it.
I think it suits really good Blues and Hard Rock, nice crunch.
So, I will be fine just throwing any of those 3 (TAD, Tung Sol, EH), the quality of sound is quite well the same, only little details are there to choose by taste. The JJ is an improvement respect of the Sovtek WA but, it's in an inferior league of those 3 others.
I have now the TAD in V1 and the EH in V2. I swapped the position of both valves and I didn't hear a noticiable difference.
But, as the test was done with a Fender Strato, maybe I will find that the Tung Sol is a better option with an LP-clon, darker by nature.
I think, a TungSol (brigther and punchier) paired with a TAD (darker and crunchier) can be a winning combo. Will try in one or two weeks.
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(http://i.thisis.co.uk/274096/article/images/219329/291136.jpg)
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Thanks for the review hermetico - it's especially interesting to me as I have some TAD 7025s that I haven't yet tried.
ummm martin, was that meant for the post a pic of yourself (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9705.0) thread? :)
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Cheers Tom. It has been getting a bit noisy for a little while. The amp gets used a lot what with a gig or two each week and a rehearsal or two also each week so I suppose it is to be expected.They have been in about 18 months.
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(http://i.thisis.co.uk/274096/article/images/219329/291136.jpg)
Gentleman, what's the meaning of that cr@ppy picture?
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shes a famous wine taster from british TV
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I did a different preamp valve shootout with gwEm this week using my JTM45/18. I had a set of NOS Mazda 12AX7's in it which were sounding good, but I'd picked up some over the last month and thought with 2 sets of ears it woudl be a good time to check them. I have NOS RFT ECC83, GE 12AX7, Philips 5751's and the Mazda's. As a control we had new Mullard ECC83's (which had worked well in a prior test we'd done).
New Mullard ECC83 - don't put these in after listening to any NOS valves! The sound is much flatter and the overdrive is more forced. They don't have the clarity of any of the NOS
NOS Mazda 12AX7 - Nice top end without being piercing, great low end too. Mids are a little more recessed than the other NOS tubes, but nothing that the tone control won't take care of
NOS RFT ECC83 - much fatter tube than the Mazda or GE's. Sound is the sound of rock. Nice bottom and top, but has more in the mid range and more drive than the Mazda's.
NOS GE 12AX7 - Stellar but they run hot. The mids are incredible, just the tone that you want for rock and heavy blues. Still keeps great clarity in the top and has punch in the bottom. They would be my choice, but the hot running was worrying me a bit and I want to try them in my Ceriatone Overdrive Special.
Philips 5751 - Less drive as you would expect, but brought in some of the Bassman side of the JTM45 design. Excellent valve for a clear flat tone with no vices.
So at the end of the day I have a Mazda in V1, and an RFT in V2. Still listening to see if that's where I'll stay. I haven't played all the pickup types through it yet, so that might make me rethink things.
If you haven't tried NOS preamp tubes you really should give them a try. I picked mine up on eBay (the RFT's came from Bulgaria), and didn't pay stupid prices for them. I know if you're a maker you need a steady supply of matched valves, and also you can tune the amp to suit the valves you recommend, but this really was an eye opener. The other tubes are a Groove Tubes 12AX7M phase inverter, 2 GT KT66's and a Shuguang 5AR4 rectifier tube.
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nice.
i have a philips kicking about but i might look out for a mazda.
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shes a famous wine taster from british TV
Still not clear what he means. I doesn't smell me as positive.
Does it means that I made a good shoot out? (positive)
Or that I am drunk? (negative).
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I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness" :roll:
You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly :)
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I did a different preamp valve shootout with gwEm this week using my JTM45/18. I had a set of NOS Mazda 12AX7's in it which were sounding good, but I'd picked up some over the last month and thought with 2 sets of ears it woudl be a good time to check them. I have NOS RFT ECC83, GE 12AX7, Philips 5751's and the Mazda's. As a control we had new Mullard ECC83's (which had worked well in a prior test we'd done).
New Mullard ECC83 - don't put these in after listening to any NOS valves! The sound is much flatter and the overdrive is more forced. They don't have the clarity of any of the NOS
NOS Mazda 12AX7 - Nice top end without being piercing, great low end too. Mids are a little more recessed than the other NOS tubes, but nothing that the tone control won't take care of
NOS RFT ECC83 - much fatter tube than the Mazda or GE's. Sound is the sound of rock. Nice bottom and top, but has more in the mid range and more drive than the Mazda's.
NOS GE 12AX7 - Stellar but they run hot. The mids are incredible, just the tone that you want for rock and heavy blues. Still keeps great clarity in the top and has punch in the bottom. They would be my choice, but the hot running was worrying me a bit and I want to try them in my Ceriatone Overdrive Special.
Philips 5751 - Less drive as you would expect, but brought in some of the Bassman side of the JTM45 design. Excellent valve for a clear flat tone with no vices.
So at the end of the day I have a Mazda in V1, and an RFT in V2. Still listening to see if that's where I'll stay. I haven't played all the pickup types through it yet, so that might make me rethink things.
If you haven't tried NOS preamp tubes you really should give them a try. I picked mine up on eBay (the RFT's came from Bulgaria), and didn't pay stupid prices for them. I know if you're a maker you need a steady supply of matched valves, and also you can tune the amp to suit the valves you recommend, but this really was an eye opener. The other tubes are a Groove Tubes 12AX7M phase inverter, 2 GT KT66's and a Shuguang 5AR4 rectifier tube.
Very interesting. NOS valves should be several steps above of any current produced valve, in principle.
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(http://i.thisis.co.uk/274096/article/images/219329/291136.jpg)
:lol: I often think people spend too much time obsessing over minute differences in tone and striving for the utmost in clarity or whatever. I used to do it all the time til I realised it was quite pointless!
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I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness" :roll:
You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly :)
Absolutelly nobody can rule what I hear and what I feel.
This is MY experience with MY amp, MY valves, MY gear and MY guitar (the truth is that my experience matched the experience of a friend that was just hearing the changes, not playing, during all the shoot out).
As I said, differences between the TAD, the EH and the 7025-S are small, nothing that the tone stack of the amp can't handle but, there is a noticiable difference between the JJ's (the ECC83S, I dunno with the LPS!) and those other three. As well as there is a noticiable difference between the Sovteck 12AX7-WA and the JJ ECC83S.
The Tung Sol are brighter than the other two and the TAD darker, being the EH the more balanced. Ther are also differences in the break up point and how they break up.
2 hours of intensive testing, in all conditions: clean guitar, guitar + line booster, guitar + line booster and overdrive, guitar + line booster, overdrive and mesa-like distortion pedal. pre-amp gain at 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 for each "gear mode", power amp volume at 2/4 and 4/4 in all those combinations. 10 mins of breakout between tube swaps.
I cannot believe that someone that works with amps cannot distinguish any difference between a JJ ECC83-S and a EH 12AX7 and a Tung Sol or TAD 7025-S from that one!.
And it doesn't mean, in anyway, that I would prefere same valves in other of my amps, neither that my experience could match yours. Since tastes are very personal. Talking about wines, some prefere Rioja, some prefere Ribera de Duero, some prefere Priorato, some prefere Merlot, Cavernet Sauvingon, etc but, a good Sommellier will choose the right one for each dish and/or wallet.
So, I think Martin's aswers is like this:
(http://gacetacojonuda.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/idiota1.jpg)
Adds nothing positive to the discussion.
BTW, I can only talk here about tone, not about realiability.
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I think Martin is implying that you're looking at the very small details of preamp valve tones, as wine tasters do when they talk about "floral flavours" and "lingering apple woodiness" :roll:
You have different opinions on how much difference they make, clearly :)
Well, I can play any guitar loaded with Gibson 57's or Seymour Duncan 59's with pleasure but, do you know what? The Mules gave me the PAF tone I was chasing for several years. The Gibby and SD are in the same league, just different flavour but, the BKP is one or two steps above in tone (to MY ears, to MY taste).
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I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, hermetico. Just stating my opinion. I can hear differences between different pickups etc but I find that when buying/comparing BKPs (and any other new gear actually) I always find myself worrying too much about whether my purchase was worthwhile and whether the cost was justified.
Probably why I'm enjoying my Gibson/its pickups so much. I know it doesn't sound quite as clear or "organic" as my other guitars, but I'm having more fun actually playing it and not caring so much about the tone, even though it does sound great :) I sort of find that when spending £200 on pickups I get too picky and it sucks all the fun out of it :lol:
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It's all just opinion - I wouldn't worry too much about it :)
A key point is where and how loud you play. At home, I can really notice the difference between my guitars/amps/cabinets/pickups etc. As soon as I get into a band situation, all the small changes disappear and you notice different things or other things not at all.
For gigging, I don't worry about the tiny details and I can still sound like me using a JTM45 with an SG or an MJW Orion and a Tele.
If what you've got works for you, in your situation, then that's great. I agree with Martin to a certain extent in that once you're cranked up with a drummer who the hell will notice if you're using BKPs/a long tenon Les Paul/an original '74 script logo MXR Phase 90, other than yourself?
EDIT: Crossed posts with Tom, and I think we're coming from the same angle!
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I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, hermetico. Just stating my opinion. I can hear differences between different pickups etc but I find that when buying/comparing BKPs (and any other new gear actually) I always find myself worrying too much about whether my purchase was worthwhile and whether the cost was justified.
Probably why I'm enjoying my Gibson/its pickups so much. I know it doesn't sound quite as clear or "organic" as my other guitars, but I'm having more fun actually playing it and not caring so much about the tone, even though it does sound great :) I sort of find that when spending £200 on pickups I get too picky and it sucks all the fun out of it :lol:
Nothing wrong. I understand your position and it's very reasonable but I don't share it. Also nothing wrong.
Everyone is free of deciding what worths the money, the effort or the try or, how to expend or waste his time and money.
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It's all just opinion - I wouldn't worry too much about it :)
A key point is where and how loud you play. At home, I can really notice the difference between my guitars/amps/cabinets/pickups etc. As soon as I get into a band situation, all the small changes disappear and you notice different things or other things not at all.
For gigging, I don't worry about the tiny details and I can still sound like me using a JTM45 with an SG or an MJW Orion and a Tele.
If what you've got works for you, in your situation, then that's great. I agree with Martin to a certain extent in that once you're cranked up with a drummer who the hell will notice if you're using BKPs/a long tenon Les Paul/an original '74 script logo MXR Phase 90, other than yourself?
EDIT: Crossed posts with Tom, and I think we're coming from the same angle!
Yup, I agree up to certain point. Probably, I will play comfortablely wih a 57' a 59' or a BKP but, everyone will notice it if I am playing a cheap Korean or Chinesse PAF, since I will start to play really bad. If I don't like what I hear, I don't enjoy and, If I don't enjoy, all my performance sucks.
And then, there are studio recordings, where the little differences became bigger.
As I said, nothing wrong. Everyone chooses his path. I am not trying to defend anything in concrete, just sharing my own conclussions, feelings about my personal experience with those valves.
It can be helpul or not for anyone, I really don't care. It's useful for me.
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I think that it is always interesting to hear other peoples views on things and whether you agree with them or not is of little importance as fa as I am concerned. With tone I would say that there are so many variables than can influence tone-the type of guitar/pickups/strings/pick/cable,amp/valves/venue/volume/style of the player/mood of the player/day of the week etc etc. I guess that what we all want is to get the best of each element and as best is always subjective (at least in the context that we are using) the debates will go on and on. All part of the fun as far as I am concerned as long as we are all civilized about it that is and most people on this forum are civilized.
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If I don't like what I hear, I don't enjoy and, If I don't enjoy, all my performance sucks.
^ +1
if my tone isn't happening, it bothers me and I really can't get into it.
its quite surprising that on a forum for high-end pickups there are people who consider fine-tuning your rig to be cork sniffing. imo, all those little things we fine tune make a big difference when combined whether its NOS valves, paper in oil caps in your guitar, high-end cables, the type of pick you use or indeed BKPs.
I would note that the most expensive tweaks are not always the 'best' (subjectively) - like cables, I like some treble roll off as those super-low capacitance cables sound harsh in the top end to me. To someone else, that might translate into a clearer/more-detailed top end.
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Yeah I don't like it when my tone is awful as I don't enjoy it. I think I've just found a threshold where it sounds "good enough" to me and I stop caring about the tone and concentrate more on the playing.
As Dave says I think the more subtle stuff can often get a bit lost in a band situation. BKPs were definitely worth the money for my other two guitars though, Epiphone pickups are rubbish!
Have my first gig with the Gibson tonight so we'll see how it fares without BKPs in that situation rather than just playing at home or at band practice!
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Best of luck Tom - hope it goes well!
As you say, the subtle stuff is of huge importance to the home player or serious recording dude, but not the average pub player!
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like cables, I like some treble roll off as those super-low capacitance cables sound harsh in the top end to me. To someone else, that might translate into a clearer/more-detailed top end.
100% agree. Fender Koil Kord standard works fine but, the Platinum has excesive high end content and sounds harsh. That's why Hendrix always worked with radioshack coil cords.
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Gig went very well and the Gibson performed awesomely :) Not gonna bother changing the pickups (at least not yet :lol: ) as it sounded great. Its become my no.1 now I'm used to it, and the SG has overtaken the Les Paul as my favourite guitar type! I hardly touch my other guitars any more as they just feel clunky in comparison.
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Great stuff!
I've gone the other way, and I'm loving my LP more than anything! :lol:
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When you spend that much on a guitar, you'd better love it :lol:
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Ha ha - true enough!
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:lol: They finally arrived, opened up the back and realised I needed 4 valves, not 3! So for now I've left v3 alone as I seem to remember the PI (v4 I think) is more important? About to plug in to seee how it sounds.
edit - well they don't sound much different, slightly fuller/middier if anything. Haven't reduced the noise/hum at all though! Might take it to a tech to get looked at as I'm sure it wasn't this noisy when I first got it.