Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Andrew W on March 28, 2010, 10:10:21 PM
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Hello BKP hivemind. I think the time has come to swap out the EL 84 in my Cornell Plexi Seven. I'm utterly clueless in what to go for as I've never had an amp with EL84s in before. Looking at this (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20667.0) thread it appears that Hotrox is the favoured UK based supplier so I guess I'll go there unless anyone has a particular favourite from somewhere else. But the question is which one to get? The amp only has one power valve so I don't need to worry about matched pairs and as I only need one I don't mind spending a little but I could use some advice from the wise heads here on what's hot and what's not? Thanks a million in advance.
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My view is that as EL84s only last about 1 year, its pointless getting NOS ones unless your a) rich or b) can get them cheap.
Of the one's i've used in my Blues Junior (which is about to be converted to a 6V6):
Groove Tubes - Stock in Fenders, not good, not bad.
EH - I used them for a couple of changes and found them to be nice.
Harma - Rebranded from somewhere east European, didn't really shine
TAD - Junk deluxe, avoid
JJs - Personally didn't like them as they were a bit dark, but most people rate them, so maybe I got a bad pair.
New Sensor 'Mullard' from Ebay USA - I use inverted commas because they are nothing like real Mullards but my favourite EL84s - they add a presence the others miss.
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According to the tube store, the best currently produced ones are the Gold Lion (I've got a pair but, still not tested).
New production Mullard are also very well rated.
And some named Telam & Polam (never seen).
EH are well balanced, a good compromisse.
Sovtek are plain, have a flat bottle and are prone to microphonics but, they work awesome in Blues Jr.
JJ are dark, womans' tone, very prone to microphonics.
TAD EL84M are sterile but, reliable as a tank, encellent to fix microphonic issues, no tone there.
TAD EL84-STR a radical EL84, hate or love. Deep bass, high trebles, strident mids, big bottle!.
So, I'd go for Gold Lion, Mullard and EH and check what I like more.
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I'm liking Gold Lion KT-66s at the mo, so maybe their EL84s could be worth a try?
Twice the price of JJs though.....
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JJ are dark, womans' tone, very prone to microphonics.
Where are you getting this nonsense from? :)
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I have JJ EL84s in my LC15, they sound great, much better than the original 14yr old sovteks that came out
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JJ are dark, womans' tone, very prone to microphonics.
Where are you getting this nonsense from? :)
I mentioned it, dude. The Tube store.
And I agree, JJ are dark in already dark amps. Maybe they work better in some kind of fenderish amp.
Microphonics is more noticiable in combos, not in heads.
What makes no sense to you?
Not every valve will work in every amp, as it's well known. Sometimes, cheaper can work better than expensivier. Each amp is a world.
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My experience (my actual experience) differs from what you said, that's all. I've used a lot of JJ EL84s, in both my own combos and replacements in loads of Blues Juniors and the like, with no problems with microphonics, and I don't find them dark at all.
The Tube Store actually said:
"With the JJ EL84 tube you seem to get a compromise between tone and reliability. Nice mids, sparkling highs and solid bottom end characterize this tube. From a construction standpoint I think JJ has hit the mark. As with any EL84 tube they can be prone to mechanical noise in combo amps. However, they seem to take the heat and vibration in stride without any negative tonal effects. In the AC30 the JJ EL84 tube will really deliver the VOX chime with lots of swirl and shimmery harmonic content. In the little Pro Junior just crank it up and you get a great, nasty, overdriven sound."
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My experience (my actual experience) differs from what you said, that's all. I've used a lot of JJ EL84s, in both my own combos and replacements in loads of Blues Juniors and the like, with no problems with microphonics, and I don't find them dark at all.
The Tube Store actually said:
"With the JJ EL84 tube you seem to get a compromise between tone and reliability. Nice mids, sparkling highs and solid bottom end characterize this tube. From a construction standpoint I think JJ has hit the mark. As with any EL84 tube they can be prone to mechanical noise in combo amps. However, they seem to take the heat and vibration in stride without any negative tonal effects. In the AC30 the JJ EL84 tube will really deliver the VOX chime with lots of swirl and shimmery harmonic content. In the little Pro Junior just crank it up and you get a great, nasty, overdriven sound."
Thanks for the complete quote and, fortunatelly it works in all your amps and helps your tone. Nothing wrong.
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According to the tube store...
Not sure a valve vendour's website is the best source of impartial advice. And surprise, surprise they claim the most expensive valve is the best!
I use two types of EL84s for revalving amps: JJs and Sovtek.
Although I prefer the sound of the JJs, I actually really like the cheaper Sovtek valves as well and they have proved very reliable.
The JJs tend to draw more current than the Sovteks, which can be problematic in some amps, so it is useful for me to have some of both.
The Sovteks have a larger diameter than most EL84s, which means they won't fit in some amps, eg the Marshall DSL401.
My expereinces with EH EL84s hasn't been that stellar.
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Thanks everyone. I've made a few choices and ordered a couple, just to see if I can hear the differences. I'll post when I've received them and had a play.
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According to the tube store...
Not sure a valve vendour's website is the best source of impartial advice. And surprise, surprise they claim the most expensive valve is the best!
I use two types of EL84s for revalving amps: JJs and Sovtek.
Although I prefer the sound of the JJs, I actually really like the cheaper Sovtek valves as well and they have proved very reliable.
The JJs tend to draw more current than the Sovteks, which can be problematic in some amps, so it is useful for me to have some of both.
The Sovteks have a larger diameter than most EL84s, which means they won't fit in some amps, eg the Marshall DSL401.
My expereinces with EH EL84s hasn't been that stellar.
I already explained my own experience, throwing more expensive valves in a Blues Jr. and finding that, at the end it sounded better to all us (not only me but the mixing engeneer) with a pair of Sovtek.
Maybe, the matching number have a definitive roll there (early break up, gain, etc). The truth is that I didn't take note of the different matching numbers.
Anyway, I prefere the advice of a vendor that DOESN'T RELABELS to those from people that re-labels and has make-to-order special productions. In the oposite way, amp builders (big brands) usually mount the more reliable and affordable ones. Surprise, surprise.
I am not trying to say that something is better or worst. I know what works for my amps and my taste. Nothing else.
I only wanted to give some tips to the original requester. It's hard to go for a tube without having ever experienced the swapping dance in that particular amp and, it's a very expensive thing to test all them.
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I use two types of EL84s for revalving amps: JJs and Sovtek.
Although I prefer the sound of the JJs, I actually really like the cheaper Sovtek valves as well and they have proved very reliable.
The JJs tend to draw more current than the Sovteks, which can be problematic in some amps, so it is useful for me to have some of both.
The Sovteks have a larger diameter than most EL84s, which means they won't fit in some amps, eg the Marshall DSL401.
My expereinces with EH EL84s hasn't been that stellar.
Thanks to share that info.
Just curious, did you ever try the Gold Lion and the Mullard re-issue?
I am curious about your findings. I would try those in two weeks more or less (no time by now).
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I've tried a few different EL84s in my Cornfords but surprisingly have ended up with Sovteks. Like JPF I have found they are very reliable.
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I use two types of EL84s for revalving amps: JJs and Sovtek.
Although I prefer the sound of the JJs, I actually really like the cheaper Sovtek valves as well and they have proved very reliable.
The JJs tend to draw more current than the Sovteks, which can be problematic in some amps, so it is useful for me to have some of both.
The Sovteks have a larger diameter than most EL84s, which means they won't fit in some amps, eg the Marshall DSL401.
My expereinces with EH EL84s hasn't been that stellar.
Thanks to share that info.
Just curious, did you ever try the Gold Lion and the Mullard re-issue?
I am curious about your findings. I would try those in two weeks more or less (no time by now).
I haven't tried either Gold Lion or Mullard "reissues".
I don't own any EL84 loaded amps, so I've not been motivated to try out differnent brands for my personal use.
I run a repair workshop and most customers don't want to spend £20 on an EL84.
Also I order 50-100 pieces at a time, so I need to be confident that the valves I am buying will be reliable, which is why I've stuck with Sovtek and JJ valves after a brief flirtation with EH.
Furthermore getting large amounts of Mullards in the UK is problematic.
In fact if it wasn't for the issues with the diameter of the glass enevlope I would probably just stock Sovteks.
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I run a repair workshop and most customers don't want to spend £20 on an EL84.
Also I order 50-100 pieces at a time, so I need to be confident that the valves I am buying will be reliable, which is why I've stuck with Sovtek and JJ valves after a brief flirtation with EH.
Furthermore getting large amounts of Mullards in the UK is problematic.
In fact if it wasn't for the issues with the diameter of the glass enevlope I would probably just stock Sovteks.
:lol:
That's funny. 60% of the tone is on the amp but, people preferes to swap stock pickups with high-end pickups, change tremolo blocks, expensive caps, expensive pots, locking keys and a bunch of other expensive mods but, wants to save in a few valves.
I guess, someone that is buying BK pickups is chasing the tone so, he would pay the difference IF there is a clear improvement that makes worth it.
But you gave me the reason why amp builders are usually deliverying Sovtek, Svetlana and JJ valves in their amps.
Reliability first, money second and then, tone.
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I have been using JJ El84 (correctly biased) in my Cornford Hellcat for a number of years and had no issues with micophonics. Nice chimey top end and plenty of body. In my opinion JJ's suits this particular amp nicely over the Sovteks that it came with.
Choice of valves is usually down to personal preference and what you are trying to get out of the amp.
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Choice of valves is usually down to personal preference and what you are trying to get out of the amp.
Absolutelly agree.
There's no short path.
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I've just received an e-mail from TAD to let me know that a "Mullard", JJ, Gold Lion and a mysterious, military spec Russian EL84 are on their way to me now. I thought I'd order a small selection in the spirit of inquiry to see how much difference I can hear. If I can, I'll try and do some recording, that may take a while though.
Again, thanks so much for the helpful replies.
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But you gave me the reason why amp builders are usually deliverying Sovtek, Svetlana and JJ valves in their amps.
Reliability first, money second and then, tone.
Certainly not true in my case. I don't want to keep going on, but I have to refute this.
Although clearly reliability should be a given. Hands up anyone who wants a valve which gives great tone.....for a while? Didn't think so.
In one breath you say that valve choice is personal, then in the next you make the above statement which carries the assumption that everyone agrees with your personal tone choices.
I select valves based on all three criteria, as a balance, but the aural qualities of a valve for me are the overriding issue. They MUST sound good.
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But you gave me the reason why amp builders are usually deliverying Sovtek, Svetlana and JJ valves in their amps.
Reliability first, money second and then, tone.
Certainly not true in my case. I don't want to keep going on, but I have to refute this.
Although clearly reliability should be a given. Hands up anyone who wants a valve which gives great tone.....for a while? Didn't think so.
In one breath you say that valve choice is personal, then in the next you make the above statement which carries the assumption that everyone agrees with your personal tone choices.
I select valves based on all three criteria, as a balance, but the aural qualities of a valve for me are the overriding issue. They MUST sound good.
I'd agree with this 100%.
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Yep, me too! I want something that sounds good that I can rely on.
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I've just received an e-mail from TAD to let me know that a "Mullard", JJ, Gold Lion and a mysterious, military spec Russian EL84 are on their way to me now. I thought I'd order a small selection in the spirit of inquiry to see how much difference I can hear. If I can, I'll try and do some recording, that may take a while though.
Again, thanks so much for the helpful replies.
That military spec Russian EL84 is the TAD EL84-M, a thick bottle, reliable but, sterile sounding. In principle, it will help you only in the case that you have serious microphonics issues. Plain and whithout character.
I didn't like it in my amps but, who knows it!. It can work in your.
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But you gave me the reason why amp builders are usually deliverying Sovtek, Svetlana and JJ valves in their amps.
Reliability first, money second and then, tone.
Certainly not true in my case. I don't want to keep going on, but I have to refute this.
Although clearly reliability should be a given. Hands up anyone who wants a valve which gives great tone.....for a while? Didn't think so.
In one breath you say that valve choice is personal, then in the next you make the above statement which carries the assumption that everyone agrees with your personal tone choices.
I select valves based on all three criteria, as a balance, but the aural qualities of a valve for me are the overriding issue. They MUST sound good.
Me neither wanted a valve that sounds magic for a week! (hmm, maybe if I had to record some song and wanted this sound to death). That's why I stayed away from EI valves.
Any of those valves sound good. What I wanted to say is that, from a construction point, the Amp builder will prefere reliablility and then money, as soon as the valve has an acceptable sound for their design.
If you didn't try the Gold Lion and Mullard, you don't know how reliable are or if it's there some noticiable improvement. You didn't explore their "aural qualities" and, I can understand it. For you, Sovtek and JJ's are giving you enough for a budget, are working fine in every amp and deliver tone. That's exactly what I'd do in your case. Don't get my wrong. I'm not agaist this, maybe it's just a language's barrier.
My position is quite different. I haven't to order a batch of those valves and, I haven't to satisfy a bunch of customers, where standarization can help a lot. I need to satisfy a single customer (myself) and just order a pair of each to see if I like them or not in each amp.
If after testing all them, I realize that I like more an expensiver valve, I will be worried, since it means that I need to save more cash for a new pair to be fully satisfied or, go for a cheaper one that also works fine and to know what I am loosing in tone for the benefite of my wallet; Then, I will take into account that valve only in the case of song recordings or special situations.
If I'd prefere the cheapest of all them instead, I will be the happier man on the Earth, believe me.
Will expensiver valves worth the extra money?. Probably not. Usually, changes in pre-amp tubes, specially V1 are more dramatic than changes in power amps. And gap between current prodution valves is everytime smaller.
But, I want to check the most representative ones, just to satisfy my curiosity.
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If you didn't try the Gold Lion and Mullard, you don't know how reliable are or if it's there some noticiable improvement. You didn't explore their "aural qualities" and, I can understand it. For you, Sovtek and JJ's are giving you enough for a budget, are working fine in every amp and deliver tone. That's exactly what I'd do in your case. Don't get my wrong. I'm not agaist this, maybe it's just a language's barrier.
Certainly some kind of barrier. :)
You're assuming I haven't tried those other valves?
What I'm trying to get across, is that you're assuming I agree with you that JJ's (or Sovteks, and BTW it was JPF who professed to use these brands, but I agree with him and would be quite happy to use either) are in some way lesser in tone.
This is just your opinion and I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU! It could happen you know! :lol:
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Certainly some kind of barrier. :)
You're assuming I haven't tried those other valves?
Lol, it was jpfamps who didn't try those. Sorry. :?
What I'm trying to get across, is that you're assuming I agree with you that JJ's (or Sovteks, and BTW it was JPF who professed to use these brands, but I agree with him and would be quite happy to use either) are in some way lesser in tone.
This is just your opinion and I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU! It could happen you know! :lol:
Sorry, I am not assuming this in your case, since you tested all them. Even, neither in the case of JPF. If someone is satisfied at one point, why go further?
I am neither saying that ones are better than others.
I will choose the one the better works for me, agreeing or disagreeing with you both but, for sure, all your feedback is helpful.
It seems that you usually don't use those tubes, what are your prefered ones, please?.
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Hi guy's, I'm new to this forum and noticed the thread asking which EL84 to recommend. After reading through some great discussions I was still not sure which way to go.
My problem is, I have a Blues Junior, which after one year of very moderate use has blown one of the Groove Tube EL84's. It looks like it's over heated and after reading other forums it appears the reason may be down to the Bias and the fact the BJ run's a bit hot and therefore the picture below is the result.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z138/Wi66Pro/SDC13790.jpg) :(
Before this happened I was very happy with the overall tone, my BJ is the Tweed version with the Celestion Vintage 30.
Can anyone recommend a valve which will not change the tone to much but be able to cope with the extra heat being generated.
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Until I had my BJr modded to 6v6 - I use to get through a pair of EL84s after 1 year - the cure is to drop the overly hot bias, which cooks the EL84s - but even then EL84s don't last that long - 2 years at the best. Many people talk of the speaker breaking in and more bass coming - this is generally the EL84s going.
JJs, EH, etc - all much of a muchness in terms of lasting out the term but expect 1 year to be your lot with the hot bias. If you don't want to change the sound buy a matched quad of Groove Tubes - they are the ones the amp comes with.
Alternatively, get someone the BillM kit or someone like JPF or MJW to put in a bias mod.
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I love EH's EL84's. But I heard they are not reliable as JJ's.
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Given the macho biasing of almost all modern EL84 amps (the Blues Junior is not the only culprit) no brand of tube is going to last very long!
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Get the bias tweaked. It's a quick job and shouldn't cost much.
I've had customers who gig these amps and weren't bothered about changing valves every 3 months, but the lack of reliability is a problem.
They are biased way too hot by any measure.
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Given the macho biasing of almost all modern EL84 amps (the Blues Junior is not the only culprit) no brand of tube is going to last very long!
Yes, most manufacturers give them a real hammering. My PB is 21W static dissipation in a Marshall 18W reissue.
Mind you I'm working on a Traynor YGM3 with 450V B+ so I my well have a new record tomorrow! Fortunately this amp is fixed bias so I will be able to adjust if down to something more sensible.