Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: MDV on May 27, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
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Job done.
The data that you lot gave agreed very well with tims own estimates, and as far as I can tell from that agreement and the fact that all the data sets big enough to exhibit such behaviour did indeed fit a gausian means all indicators point to the project being a success.
More data would be needed to absolutely confirm this though, or so the scientist in me says - the less thorough, more practical side of me says that we can be sure enough that its worked and theres enough to be getting on with.
The data gathered will be used in conjunction with Tims estimates (with an equal weighting of the data here and tims own values) to make the new sites EQ charts.
Give yourselves a pat on the back.
I'm going to compile a database of BK pickup EQs.
I am then going to average that data and see what the EQ, in bass/mid/treble comes out as.
The reasoning behind this stems from the phenomenon called 'wisdom of crowds', whereby if theres something observable or estimatable empirically by human senses and you get enough people to guess at it, the average of those guesses will be very close to the actual value, because the guesses are essentially randomised around the actual value with a certain distribution (standard deviation, that is) and all the guesses form a gausian, the mean of which is close to the thing being guessed at. The more guesses, the closer the mean is to the real value.
Obviously the tonal properties arent nearly as quantifiable as things this is normally used with, like weights and counting and what have you, and theres subjectivity and theres no definite answer to check this data against, but if enough people take part, and we get enough data then we can see if our cumulative experience of guitar sound and corresponding assessments of a pickups tone are sufficiently stochastic that all the other influences, like the guitars we've used the pickups in, the amps we've played them through, the strings we use, the rooms they've been played in, the players themeselves and so on and so forth will all be cancelled out and we may just end up with estimations of the pickups EQing that is accurate enough to be a useful guide.
So, if you own or have extensively played any BKs, please submit your EQ estimation for that pickup in Bass Mid Treble between 0 and 10.
The estimates do not have to be 'accurate': thats sort of the point, they just have to be what you think the pickup is; try and take into account everything else in your setup if you wish but theres no need - just tell me what your gut feel on it is. ANY honest and genuine answer is a correct one, there are no wrong ones, so please contribute if you can
----You can PM them to me if you want----
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Because its possible that our decisions and judgments might be swayed by the decisions and judgments of other participants, I'd appreciate it if you could provide your estimates without reading any other estimates. I cant make you not read them, obviously, but it works better for the methodology and results of this project if all results are totally independent, and that means not knowing what others have said.
So, again, if youre a little nervous about stating your estimates in the thread, feel free to PM them to me, I wont be offering any opinions one way or the other nor disclosing anything sent to me in a PM publically, and, this hasnt happened yet, but just in case:
The only restriction on discussion in this thread that I would appreciate it if people would observe is please do not comment on or criticise the estimates in the thread. Start another thread, I'm sure no one is offended by such discussions taking place in general (I know I'm not, and have participated in such 'discussions' :lol:), but we wouldnt want anyone to think that if they submit their estimates in here that they're going to get their heads bitten off or be pooh-poohed by anyone. That hasnt happened, and I ask that it doesnt (we're a nice bunch, so it shouldnt and I probably didnt have to ask; just making sure).
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Dont overcomplicate things, or the results will end up meaningless. I'll keep tabs of the data and build up a spreadsheet of it, and when I think theres enough for it to be statistically significant I'll send it off to Tim to see if he thinks it looks sensible.
I find this quite interesting precisely because its not what this method is normally used for - the sound of a pickup may or may not be subjective, they will have their own response spectra that is pretty deterministic, but not many people would be bothered to look at, or take the time to create a fourier transform of the output of the pickup in controlled conditions (which would be little like how they would behave in a guitar anyway); rather the 0 to 10 thing is subjective, and how you weigh it against your previous experience is subjective, and the idea is (and the interesting bit to me) is whether all these subjectivities also cancel each other out along with all the different effects on the sound you ascribe to the pickup because of the range of stuff youve they've been used with, and whether you end up with something thats not objective per se from all this subjective data, but how representative of these few specific variables the results we get are within the chaos of dozens of others in thousands of permutations as experienced by hundreds of people, and whether in fact having so much chaos and so many other variables with so many sources actually helps make a better assessment of the pickups sound.
How representative they are will be decided by Tim and co. They may think that the data is horribly wrong, and we'll learn that in this instance at least, this method of trying to get representivity out of lots of subjectivity is flawed. On the other hand, if the data is good and looks good to Tim et al, then we can use it for the sites tone charts.
Anyway, enough prattle, please join in the construction of, I believe, the first user-group generated tone charts in the big wide pickup world :D
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The idea is interesting but I think the population will be too small to get the required statistical "critical mass" effect.
But anyway:
Crawler bridge: B 5 - M 7 - T 6
Crawler neck: B 6 - M 5 - T 5
BG F50s bridge: B 2 - M 6 - T 8
BG F50s neck : B 4 - M 6 - T 5
Totally subjective & on the fly rating, as it came out after spending at most 25s thinking about it and not even trying to apply any ponderation of any kind (except for starting with the one pup I use the most and rating the others accordingly).
And now I hit the "post" button before I start overdoing it :mrgreen:
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I assume you've already taken the stuff from this thread into account, Mark:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0)
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Cold Sweat Bridge: B 6 - M 7 - T 9
Nailbomb Bridge: B 6 - M 6 - T 7
Apache Neck: B 6 - M 6 - T 4
WR
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I assume you've already taken the stuff from this thread into account, Mark:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0)
Yep!
Started it way back then in that thread for my own amusement, but I overestimated the longevity of the thread and didnt get anywhere near enough data.
Spoke to Tim today to suggest this method for the tone charts for the site, and he likes the idea - he's struggled with the pros and cons of various ways of getting the tonechart numbers and using other measures as well in a way thats trustworthy and transferable from one guitar/setup to another and doesnt seem to have been satisfied with any of the conventional ways.
On the sample size; sample size is a matter of time in this case, and this threads gonna be stickied, so it has the time to gather the data, fret not! No pun!
Thanks for the numbers so far chaps, keep them coming!
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(snip)
On the sample size; sample size is a matter of time in this case, and this threads gonna be stickied, so it has the time to gather the data, fret not! No pun!
Thanks for the numbers so far chaps, keep them coming!
Ok, send me some more BKPs so I can test them then :mrgreen:
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Bridge
Bass Mid Treble Output
Holy Diver 6 6 7 M/H fluid, chunky, warm top, very balanced voicing
Painkiller 4 9 8 H tight, very middy, bright top, loud, clean, articulated
Cold Sweat 5 6 9 M/H crunchy midrange, sparkly top, sharp sounding
Alnico Warpig 7 6 7 H massive, grainy and full midrange, NOT dark at all
Miracle Man 7 5 9 H focused, very punchy, grainy low mids, cutting treble
Nailbomb 6 4 8 H focused, punchy, loud, controlled mids, bright top
Neck
Bass Mids Treble Output
Cold sweat (n) 5 5 7 L/M articulated, balanced, fluid, never muds up
Warpig (n) 6 6 5 H fat, fluid, cleaner and darker voiced than the bridge model
Miracle Man (n) 6 5 6 M/H very similar to the warpig neck
Nailbomb (n) 6 3 9 M loud, sparkly top, aggressive 50's PAF on steroids tone
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Cheers eric.
C'mon folks, join, theres no wrong answer in this - just say what you think the pickups EQ is!
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PM them to me if you like.
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I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.
That said, here is my opinion:
Holy Diver - B6 - M7 - H5. Output M; big and warm sound, not as much treble cut due to a round and warm top end.
Miracle Man - B5 - M4 - H7. Output H; tight and powerful low end (but not that big!). I found it in comparison very similar to a Seymour Duncan JB in the low end. Not that many mids (but not scooped), cutting treble.
Black Dog - B5 - M5 - H5. Output L/M. This one was the hardest to assess, because it has a powerful sound while not being that high in output and because it also has a lot more clarity than the more compressed pickups. It doesn't "boost" your guitar a lot.
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I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.
I think MDV tried to make clear that it needn't be "absolutely accurate" in any way - more of a subjective feeling, the important point being gathering as much data as possible so the Laws of Statistic can apply.
FWIW, I don't have the slightest idea how Crawlers would sound in another guitar (and mine is kinda peculiar), I just started with "how does the Crawler bridge in my guitars sounds to my hear" (started with this one because it's the one pup I use the most in my #1 guitar), then rated the other pups relatively. Took me less than one minute (I'd even say less than 30 seconds), and I deliberately hit the "send" button before I started thinking too much about it.
So come on peoples, don't be afraid of being wrong because there's no right or wrong here, just a quick & rough estimate of how you feel your pups sound.
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I will try and have a go at this but it will be a few days before I get to it.
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I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.
I think MDV tried to make clear that it needn't be "absolutely accurate" in any way - more of a subjective feeling, the important point being gathering as much data as possible so the Laws of Statistic can apply.
FWIW, I don't have the slightest idea how Crawlers would sound in another guitar (and mine is kinda peculiar), I just started with "how does the Crawler bridge in my guitars sounds to my hear" (started with this one because it's the one pup I use the most in my #1 guitar), then rated the other pups relatively. Took me less than one minute (I'd even say less than 30 seconds), and I deliberately hit the "send" button before I started thinking too much about it.
So come on peoples, don't be afraid of being wrong because there's no right or wrong here, just a quick & rough estimate of how you feel your pups sound.
Exactly right!
Cheers alex and 38th.
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I think you should remove the sticky flag for a while
I guess most users here must be missing this thread cause we're not used to even look at the sticky topics on top when we access the forum :?
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Fairly likely, I suppose, but I didnt sticky it, Tim did. I couldnt unsticky it even if I wanted to.
Besides, you've got to weigh it being noticed less often against it falling down the forum if I dont check in for a while and no one still posts in it.
And, its kind of a project in collaberation with BKP, its got tims support and might well end up being the data for the (much waited and asked for, might I remind everyone!!! ;)) site tone charts; it seems appropriate that its stickied.
I dunno. See what Tim think if he passes by it again.
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thank you
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Errrr, your welcome.
Got any eq estimates? :lol:
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Awesome idea, MDV. This thread is going to kick so much ass once it's as in-depth and extensive as the *EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEM* thread in Players. Once I have my C-Pig set I'll let you guys know what I think.
Everyone else.... START ESTIMATING!
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Painkiller
bridge:
B: 6 M: 9 T: 7 - very hot, very punchy upper mids, very tight low end
neck:
B: 5 M: 3 T: 8 - very hot, almost single-coily tone. Very tight
Miracle Man
bridge:
B: 7 M: 7 T: 7 - very hot, low mid focus, saturated, very tight/chuggy
Cold Sweat
bridge:
B: 5 M: 5 T: 9 - hot, very clear and open, "transparent"
neck:
B: 6 M: 6 T: 7 - medium-hot, smooth, fluid, defined attack
Holy Diver
bridge:
B: 5 M: 7 T: 5 - hot, lower-mid focus, smooth top end, tight
Warpig
bridge, ceramic:
B: 8 M: 7 T: 6 - massively hot, grindy, compressed, very tight
bridge, alnico:
B: 8 M: 8 T: 5 - extremely hot, dark, saturated, very fat
neck:
B: 8 M: 7 T: 4 - very hot, dark, fat, vintage vibe
Nailbomb
bridge, ceramic:
B: 7 M: 6 T: 7 - hot, very tight, punchy, "chuggy"
bridge, alnico:
B: 6 M: 7 T: 6 - hot, dynamic, open, grindy
neck:
B: 5 M: 4 T: 8 - hot-ish, spiky, woody, open
Rebel Yell
bridge:
B: 5 M: 8 T: 6 - hot, punchy, very clear, dynamic, tight
Crawler
bridge:
B: 6 M: 6 t: 5 - hot, fat, open, dynamic
VHII
bridge:
B: 4 M: 6 T: 7 - medium-hot, clear, punchy upper mids, bright
neck:
B: 5 M: 5 T: 6 - medium-hot, fluid, juicy, dynamic
Trilogy Suite
neck:
B: 6 M: 5 T: 6 - hot, fluid, dynamic, articulate
Piledriver
bridge:
B: 6 M:7 T: 8 - very hot, tight, punchy, focussed
neck:
B: 6 M: 6 T: 7 - hot, woody, fat, dynamic
I do own/have previously owned others, but those are the ones I feel most comfortable describing
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Cheers dude.
MOAR!
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PK bridge: B6 M8 T6
A-Pig bridge: B9 M8 T7
A-Pig neck: B7 M8 T6
Maybe it's just from playing with the switch on the TTM but I'm feeling recently the distinction between low and high mids is a crucial one, probably too late to include it here though.
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I agree, on the low mids and high mids, in general and take it into account in my own considerations very much
But here, to help the study be more accurate and to make the final results less complex and more accessible I thought BMT was best, tim was happy enough with that and here we are!
Thanks for the data.
Gonna have to stop piling in every post for that if this is gonna go on for, well, for as long as it needs to - thanks for all data and future data, data givers! Rest assured your estimates have been, and will be, logged and everyones estimates are all equally valuable to the results, and me *sheds a tear*.
MOAR!
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Holy snap Nolly, you must have a book on BKPs! So (off topic), based on what you said in the J-Custom/RGD thread, you think the PK is a good bridge unit for my all mahogany 7? CS for the neck?
But yeah. The br00talz should be here in about a week. And just because Nolly estimated like a millions billions pickups doesn't mean people should stop.
OH, and how about separate estimates for 7 and 8 string models?
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Here goes: purely subjective but:
Apaches B6 M6 T5
Slowhands B6 M7 T5
Country Boys B5 M6 T6
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Ta
Xperception, NO! Stopit! Your enthusiasm is certainly appreciated, but I'm not complicating it any futher. Besides theres precisely no chance whatsoever that I would get enough data for 7 and 8 pickups within 5 years, and they sound the same anyway.
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Miracle Man: B - 7, M - 7, H - 8 Hot, strong (but tight) bass, punchy growly, grinding mids, good presence, but not harsh in my experience across 2 guitars with this pickup
Black Dog: B - 6 M - 4, H - 4 Growly pickup capable of gorgeous grind.
Roo
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Black Dog: B - 6 M - 4, H - 4 Growly pickup capable of gorgeous grind.
Roo
Oh Roo, those numbers are music to my ears for my alder maple/maple Strat's bridge, when I need to calm the guitar down for a pop/rock gig. Wow, the mids not banging away and the top so nice. . . I hope it's close to that for me when I get to the Black Dog on my list.
While I'm posting, this thread has already helped me alot, my opinion is to not go into a whole lot of detail about your axe etc., just how do you feel the numbers fall into place for that particular pickup in its respective position. Keep them coming guys, I have two more on the way and will post up the numbers.
WR
Ps- Respectfully stated, I don't feel this thread should be one for off topic.
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Small note to the OP added and I'm going to sit back and collect the data, without replying to every single contribution, so please chaps, carry on, I am watching and adding your estimates, all contributions are precisely, mathe$%&#ingmatically exactly equally valuable, so get them in.
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Oh darn. Ideas are always so easy until you have to start working to achieve them. :lol:
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Black Dog: B - 6 M - 4, H - 4 Growly pickup capable of gorgeous grind.
Roo
Ps- Respectfully stated, I don't feel this thread should be one for off topic.
Meh, go nuts. Hardly any other thread round here stays on topic long :lol: As long as the numbers keep rolling in, I dont mind
X, yes, indeed ;)
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Ps- Respectfully stated, I don't feel this thread should be one for off topic.
Meh, go nuts. Hardly any other thread round here stays on topic long :lol: As long as the numbers keep rolling in, I dont mind
X, yes, indeed ;)
Oh ok, it's your thread MDV, I just noticed for me it was distracting in gathering in this type of topic/thread, and thought it would make it cleaner and easier for you and others' too.
By all means go nuts and off topic at will, and disregard my opinion and idea, I retract it upon further review and thought. They'll be no more interruption from me concerning any idea's pertaining to this thread.
WR
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God, this is difficult, but I feel I should have a go:
Black Dog (bridge) B:6 M:5 T:5
Stormy Monday (neck) B:5 M:4 T:6
Abraxas (neck) B:6 M:6 T:6
Rebel Yell (bridge) B:4 M:7 T:7
Riff Raff (bridge) B:5 M:5 T:7
Cold Sweat (bridge) B:6 M:5 T:8
Cold Sweat (neck) B:6 M:6 T:7
Crawler (bridge) B:7 M:7 T:5
Crawler (neck) B:6 M:6 T:5
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Incidentally, Mark, aren't the later results going to be biased by previous results? Would almost be better to have the results hidden until they're all in, but that will probably make it even more difficult to get responses. I think your biggest issue here will be reaching a statistically significant number of responses - especially unbiased ones!
Good luck, though. :)
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Incidentally, Mark, aren't the later results going to be biased by previous results? Would almost be better to have the results hidden until they're all in, but that will probably make it even more difficult to get responses. I think your biggest issue here will be reaching a statistically significant number of responses - especially unbiased ones!
Good luck, though. :)
The thought has occured to me.
I considered asking people to send them to me directly, or not read other responses, but on the other hand, maybe there are as many people that look at the estimates and go 'thats bollocks! Its 6-8-7!', as I do :lol: Its a good point though, and I'll invite people to make their estimates without reading the others, but I cant make them not read them!
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Oh, and since I'm here
Philly - thanks mate
Whiteram - chill mate
That will be all
Keep them coming!
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Incidentally, Mark, aren't the later results going to be biased by previous results? Would almost be better to have the results hidden until they're all in, but that will probably make it even more difficult to get responses. I think your biggest issue here will be reaching a statistically significant number of responses - especially unbiased ones!
Good luck, though. :)
The thought has occured to me.
I considered asking people to send them to me directly, or not read other responses, but on the other hand, maybe there are as many people that look at the estimates and go 'thats bollocks! Its 6-8-7!', as I do :lol: Its a good point though, and I'll invite people to make their estimates without reading the others, but I cant make them not read them!
I found it helpful to look at other people's responses - I probably would've struggled to get started without them. I mean, what's an "average" bass or midrange for a humbucker? Do you take it as, say, 5? And if you do, do you use the same "scale" to rate single-coils, or a different one?
It was good to use other ratings, not to copy them but just as reference points to help me focus more on my own thoughts.
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Hmmm...that would be the biasing that roo spoke of! (previous results influencing later ones, which though I'll take your word, one BK forumite to another, that your final estimates are your own, if I were in full scientist mode, I'd have to abandon those estimates....but I'm not in full science mode).
Still though, hopfully this is another of those things that will (hopefully) not end up distorting the data. I certainly cant stop people doing it and would rather have the results in amongst totally independent ones than not have them at all.
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Well, you know, you're free to delete my responses if you like, it's your survey. :)
But I suspect nearly everyone who's replied has looked at the other responses.
Even if they haven't, we've probably all formed our ideas of what constitutes a "6", a "7" or an "8" by spending years looking at the tone charts on DiMarzio or Duncan's websites and catalogues. We're not living in a bubble.
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Well, you know, you're free to delete my responses if you like, it's your survey. :)
But I suspect nearly everyone who's replied has looked at the other responses.
Even if they haven't, we've probably all formed our ideas of what constitutes a "6", a "7" or an "8" by spending years looking at the tone charts on DiMarzio or Duncan's websites and catalogues. We're not living in a bubble.
No, certainly not going to do that.
I am, however, relying on precisely the sort of thing youre talking about with the other tonecharts. The point is making a usable set of figures that represents the pickups as well as possible with as many conceivable circumstances as possible so that it 'works' for as many people that read it as possible, and the long-term assimilation of semi-arbitrary measures like those normally given by a manufacturer (which are little better in my view than any given estimate from an experienced user) are one part of that. For want of a better term its one component of a 'collective unconcious' understanding of tone. Horribly wrong application of the term I know, but hopefully it gets the idea across - many people have had their judgments of pickups eq framed and calibrated by such charts, and some havent (I for one havent looked at one in years), some will dissagree with them, some will use them as reference points, some treat them as gospel and their infulence will be seen here, but it wont be ubiquitous or introduce what we sciencey types would call a 'systematic error'.
What will introduce a systematic error, if enough people do it, is looking at estimates for the pickups they're estimating; they may/will tend to trend along with each other after being set by the first people that spoke up. I dont want people to doubt their own ears when doing this, and I dont want anyone to look to any other estimates as guides or moral support for their own. I just want people to read the OP, give it 5 seconds thought and go "_Pickup_ is about 6-5-7", quite possibly infulenced in part by years of looking at tone charts and maybe not, then go see what others said about that pickup. Some people will do that and some wont, and theres nothing I can do about that, but thats the ideal way for people to go about it.
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Alnico warpig - Treb, 5. Mid 7, bass 9
Grind, 6. Compression, 6
Very suited for clean too. big epic distortion tone. Suited for most styles of metal
C-pig. - Treb, 6,7. Mid, 8, Bass 8
Grind 8, compression 7,5
Extremely suited for Extreme metal
ok cleans
Painkiller - treb, 6-7. Mid 8, bass 6
Grind 7 Compression 7
Really nice pickup for metal too. ok cleans
Miracle man - treb 8. mid 7, bass 5
Grind 9 Compression 8
Extremely good for more technical death metal & old school staccato thrash. Not a very good "suffo" style pickup tho.
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Emerald Bridge: B 7 - M 6 - T 7
Custom '62 Neck: B 6 - M 4 - T 6
WR
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I only own and have played the Holy Diver. Here goes.....
Output - Med
Bass - 4
Mid - 7
treb - 3
Mine is in a strat - alder body. Maple/Rosewood neck
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here goes.
Black Dog Bridge:
B: 6
M: 6
T: 4
Mule Neck:
B: 5
M: 5
T: 7
cheers!
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Thanks chaps, your estimates have been included!
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Bass Mids Treble Output
Riff Raff Custom* 6 5 8 L/M
* mine is about 5% overwound and has a 4 mm magnet, so it's hotter and more bass heavy than a regular Riff Raff
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*** Keep in mind, all of these pickups were in a Telecaster Custom HH Spalted Maple. I've come to the realization this is indeed a dark guitar, and the ratings are based as such. Tuning to Db standard, w/ 56-13 strings caused alot of the voicing to shift as well. Here's what i found...
Bass Mid Treble
Miracle Man - 8 4 7
HUUUGE Low end. The slightly scooped nature of this pickup made for a scooped guitar sound. I actually really did like the way the highs sounded, but the other eq attributes were simply not voiced for this guitar/tuning. This is a pickup for balanced guitars, or else you run the risk of too much highs or too much lows. I would suggest this pickup for somebody tuned to standard looking to beef up their guitar sound.
Cold Sweat - 7 5 8
It's easy to assume that this and the Miracle Man were cut from the same cloth. Tim actually told me to think about this as a lower output MM. It has slightly less lows, but the same amount of highs; BOY DOES IT HAVE HIGHS. With my particular high-gain tube preamp it was difficult not to get distortion. Very strange anomaly indeed. The highs were trying so hard to push through that i could use a quarter less gain than normal and still have a shitee-ton of distortion. Very clear. Very dynamic, as everyone remarked. Can't shake the high end, at any cost. Know that you are buying a bright, bright pickup, but it has the lows to match, so it really fits well in anything looking to play distorted and heavy.
Rebel yell - 5 7 5
Best BKP for this guitar, thus far. Once i realized i had a dark guitar, i entertained the crazy notion of trying this pickup. For heavy, nasty, metal, crusty, extreme styles of music you won't find many examples of this pickup. It's a slightly untapped resource. Tight, tight mids. Thick low mids, with high mids that cut like a knife. I REALLY wish my guitar itself was just a bit brighter to better match this pickup, but it's the closest BK to what i'm looking for. If you need midrange and don't want to take the ceramic route (or if the Painkiller sounds a little over the top for you), then this is a good route to go. Keep in mind that this thing doesn't have a ton of lows, so a thin guitar will still sound.... slightly thin (unless you aren't going for a heavy, nasty distorted tone). If your guitar is dark, and/or your tuning/string gauge a bit bassy, then this thing can be a great balance to give you a pronounced, poignant midrange - if you so desire.
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Miracle Man bridge
Really focused tight sound with loads of definition the midrange is just right imho the highs sizzle nicely
B=6 -
M=4.3 (im serious here) -
T=8
Ill do the MQ neck tomorrow as i havent had it long enough to be able to do it off the top of my head
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Thanks chaps.
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from extensive playing with my CS and RR set, i'd have to say this
Bridge CS: B 8 M6 T8 being hotter it has more bass than my black dog, but it's shifted a bit lower so it doesn't mud up the mids at all.
Neck RR: B5 M6 T8 very clean and singing clean tone. very paffy lead tone. the keyword here is: clear!
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MDV, why don't you use something like Google Charts to give us nice graphical images derived from the data you've collected?
http://code.google.com/apis/chart/
It takes a bit of reading but they do also have a wizard that you can use.
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Because
A: I'm compiling it in a excel (well, OO calc) sheet, which works fine
B: I already have graphs
C: The graphs arent getting released to the public till they are statistically solid (more data) and therefore meet my approval as a satisfactorily robust data source, and then to Tim who can then choose to use them or not based on what he thinks of there representivity of the pickups. I still dont really properly know if its working. Early indications from the largest groups show that the results are quite reasonably gaussian, though, which means it should (the results should have a gausian distribution if the premise is sound; randomised with a standard distribution around a mean value; if they didnt have that distribution then this wont work).
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A-Pig -
Bridge - T6 M6 B9
Very fat, saturated
Neck - T5 M6 B8
Super hot vintage vibe
PK -
Bridge - T7 M8 B5
Clinical, great midrange punch, extremely tight.
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Joined just to contribute to this thread so hopefully it helps a bit.
Miracle man bridge in and old Esp F-200 basswood
B : 7
M : 4
T : 8
Stupidly Tight in the bottom end but packs a great sound that sounds like the crack of lightning when you strike a power chord heavily. To my ears anyways. :shock:
Holy Diver Neck in same guitar
B : 9
M : 7
T : 4
Fat and thick and too boomy for basswood in my opinion. But i lowered the pickup height considerably and now its just fine. Nice and smooth but i'll prob replace it :(
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Thanks chaps
Especially canadianmetalhead - youre a scholar and a gentleman for joining to participate! Stick around, its a great forum.
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lol just happy to help :)
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Bare Knuckle Warpig Bridge - Bass 7 , Middles 5, Highs 5.
Bare Knuckle Nailbomb Bridge - Bass 5, Middles 5,5, Highs 6,5 .
Bare Knuckle Miracle Man Bridge - Bass 6, Middles 4, Highs 7 .
Bare Knuckle Painkiller Bridge - Bass 6, Middles 6, HIghs 7,5 .
q: p
All pickups are the traditional versions. SO, theres no custommagnet or magnet swap at all.
q: p
JP
PS - Although in the chart measurements ,the warpig and painkiller and miracle man has its bass frequencies almost in the same level, it feels like the Warpig has more amount of bass. more MASS to it.as tim said, it has a wall of sound to it.
the painkiller has a more MEATY Bass and its deeper too.
Miracle man has the classic Surgical/clinical dry and meticulous tight bass response and still manage to keep the amount of bass .
the Nailbomb has just the RIGHT Amount of bass to my ears. Its tight,deep and natural and organic.
i just wish it could have a bit more pronounced Middles in my Nailbomb . q: P
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Just wondering, different amps respond differently and will require different settings to get the same EQ, if the EQ ranges are at all similar. how is that taken into account?
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Just wondering, different amps respond differently and will require different settings to get the same EQ, if the EQ ranges are at all similar. how is that taken into account?
Thats sort of the point.
The idea is that by creating an average of a large number of assesments that are both subjective and with different guitars, amps, speakers, cabs etc etc etc there will be as many results that, say, place a large emphasis on bass as there are that underestimate it, and so provided the results are gaussian (which they are so far, where there are enough data points to give an indication) the average will be a 'true' value, or rather that the mean of the group will be a more representative value than any one value in the group.
In short, I'm counting on people making different assesments of the pickup because of different equipement, settings, tastes and the like.
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Ah, proper statistical analysis. so listing the amp is therefore irrelevant as the "true" average values will give you the best start point fom which to EQ your pickups?
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Ah, proper statistical analysis. so listing the amp is therefore irrelevant as the "true" average values will give you the best start point fom which to EQ your pickups?
Kind of, yes.
In that if enough people take part then there will be enough different combinations of gear the the values from this would be the best indicators of the pickups general EQ for anyone no matter what their gear.
But yes, listing the amp, guitar and whatever else is irrelevent, because whatever EQ character they have, someone should be using the same pickup in a setup thats the opposite, and more or less all points in between.
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I skimmed through each page and didn't see myself (other than my over-enthusiasm, page 2), so. estimates for you:
Ceramic Warpig (Bridge):
B: 8
M: 8
T: 6.5
Tight, very hot, good for leads, good cleans from a ceramic.
Alnico WP (neck):
B: 8.5
M: 6
T: 6
Fat, dark. Bass can get overbearing on the low strings (I had to angle it quite a bit). Excellent cleans.
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I have a Painkiller in full koa body and ebony fingerboard with dropH tuning. It sounds like this:
Bass: 6
Mids: 9
Treble: 5
It has a lot of mids, upper mids especially, cut like a knife, very quick attack. There is a great bass too, but it's very tight. Trebles are smooth, not harsh, I give a little treble to it on my ENGL, but the others are 12 o'clock. Very good pickup for mahagony and other heavy woods. Great for modern, tight, djenty metal, like Periphery or Sikth. Clean is OK.
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Thanks fellas
And welcome, shotgun :)
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This may or may not be useful but i spent the afternoon carefully calibrating both of my axes and thought this might be useful for your database needs
i only took pics for the black dog so far but if you think it's useful i'll run all of my 4 BKP
Signal chain
Schecter loomis 7 with black dog bridge. 2 week old elixir strings gauged 10-68 in Bb. maple neck and fretboard and ash body. set neck. 10' lead into a simple behringer guitar link sound card. playing both a heavy gallop riff on the low B and some lead fiddle on the high e b g and d. the black dog is set quite close to the strings (2mm fretted on the 24th fret, the closest it can be)
here are the graphs i got. just for reference, on my cold sweat the range from maybe 6k to 12k doesn't roll off. i'll do some more if you think they can be of help.
this is the guitar direct into the analyzer, it's as pure as it can be. first image is the riff. second image is the lead.
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I think that sort of analysis (fourier transforms) really has a lot of potential for pickup EQ analysis, and thanks for doing it!
The downfalls that it may have are that that response is specific to the pickup in that guitar, that tuning, that string guage; you could take a lot of fourier power spectra of the same pickup in lots of guitars and average them up, and then do away with this vague and really quite unhelpfull convention of 'bass mid treble, 0-10', but thats considerably more effort from people with the means, know-how and inclination to do them (but if its worth doing its worth doing; its just a bit of work).
The other thing is interpretability. Most people arent accustomed to seeing fourier spectra and really understanding what they're seeing and how it relates to guitar sound and human hearing (fletcher munson equal loudness curves should probably be included!)
BUT!
If people like these, then I for one would be up for seeing, say, a curve for X pickup in a les paul/SG/dark guitar and a curve for a stereotypical bright guitar, superstrat type thing alongside the average numbers, and can and would create similar curves for the pickups I have now (not many left - I simplified my pickup setups to 2x c-bomb and 2 x aftermath bridge, so the aftermaths out for a start, because it doesnt officially exist yet, and the c-bomb is a 'custom' variation, not a main line).
I dont expect many people can provide them, though. (That said, if tim likes the idea, he has the means to do it; lots of guitars and lots of BKs; theres plenty of software around that will create a fourier power spectra for a sound sample).
I'll fire Tim a PM and reference him to your graphs, this page of the thread, or whatever. Actually screw it I'll just phone him now; I'll let you know what he says.
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that's what i was thinking actually. but i'm afraid that all the tonal differences between woods and pickups might blur the line. some guitar might have a natural spike on the 1khz while another will have it much lower. once i post the graphs for the CS guitar you'll see what i meant, you have to look carefully to see the differences, and then the peaks really differ depending on where on the string you play too! the graphs were done over a 5-10 second recording and i just took a picture of the peaks. a better way to do it might be to check the graph for each string. and see how it averages out.
it's alot of work but this is a bit closer to the ''output'' measurement so many people ask for.
one thing i noticed. my CS is quite compressed, i could bang real hard and it would never go over -7.0 dB
on my black dog, a nice spank on the high e brought it up to -4.0 dB. so much for medium output :D
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that's what i was thinking actually. but i'm afraid that all the tonal differences between woods and pickups might blur the line. some guitar might have a natural spike on the 1khz while another will have it much lower. once i post the graphs for the CS guitar you'll see what i meant, you have to look carefully to see the differences, and then the peaks really differ depending on where on the string you play too! the graphs were done over a 5-10 second recording and i just took a picture of the peaks. a better way to do it might be to check the graph for each string. and see how it averages out.
it's alot of work but this is a bit closer to the ''output'' measurement so many people ask for.
one thing i noticed. my CS is quite compressed, i could bang real hard and it would never go over -7.0 dB
on my black dog, a nice spank on the high e brought it up to -4.0 dB. so much for medium output :D
Yeah, but in what frequency range was that peak, how long did it last and is it really telling you whether and if so how its going to clip an amps pre?
The best way to get something representative for a given guitar would be to play chromatically right up the neck, every note, and then take an aggregate transform of the lot, rather than an instantaneous one. That way youre using all the strings and going through the guitars full range. Most of the data is still in overtones, however, which is extremely string and guitar dependent. A set of 10s in E is going to be really, really different to 13s in B.
It is, in the grand scheme, the 'right' thing to do, I think, if gone about in the same sort of way as the B M T thing the thread is for - lots of guitars, lots of data, lots of players, take an average. The reason I say that is its not subjective, its quantitative, but its still subject to a tremendous number of variables and it would be much harder to gather a large data set thats statistically valid and the different setups used all start to cancel each other out (its hard enough just getting bass/mid/treble off people; some pickups still only have one estimate in my data for this!).
While we're on about variables, theres a chance that you could eliminate one; pick attack and how the player does it (and how that affects the readings) by violining the notes.
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Interesting thread and a difficult task I guess. You have to consider a lot etc. But even if different gear can get in the way of making an accurate estimation of the tone of a pickup, people who have tried quite a few can have a good picture of what the bass, mids, treble of a pickup could be compared to other ones. It's because the more pickups you've tried, the more accurately you know where a pickup sound would fall in the scale. And this doesn't have to do with gear if you think about it, because every pickup you tried has gone through yours. Even your different amp settings are made with the original pickup sound in mind. Even adjusting your gear every time you get a new pickup is a way of estimating the pickup's tone automatically. I guess it's the brain's ability to equalize every other factor when focusing into something. ;) (I don't know if I can type what exactly I have in my mind right now....:P)
So I think this is quite a valid way of doing the job. You just need a lot of inputs...
Anyway...it's just my opinion. ;)
Another way would be to have the most neutral sounding guitar with a flat EQ wood and try every pickup using a spectrum analyzer in a PC by just struming all the strings open. A good way but tough to carry out I guess. :P
To the point:
I have only tried the Holydiver from BKs:
B: 6 / M: 6 / T: 5
The pickup is clear, tight, smooth with a bald type of distortion (think Megadeth - Youthanasia and Countdown to Extinction). Warm sounding highs and the sound is thick and very balanced overall. Nice amount bass and mids and the lead tone is great. Very 80s-like. Reminds me of Kee Marcello from Europe sometimes.
Keep up the good work. ;)
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Job done.
The data that you lot gave agreed very well with tims own estimates, and as far as I can tell from that agreement and the fact that all the data sets big enough to exhibit such behaviour did indeed fit a gausian means all indicators point to the project being a success.
More data would be needed to absolutely confirm this though, or so the scientist in me says - the less thorough, more practical side of me says that we can be sure enough that its worked and theres enough to be getting on with.
The data gathered will be used in conjunction with Tims estimates (with an equal weighting of the data here and tims own values) to make the new sites EQ charts.
Give yourselves a pat on the back.
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in weight relevied lp studio: black dog bass 6- mids 6- treble 6 :D (seriously though.) pretty grindy sounding.
in sg classic: bkp91 (aIV) bass 5- mids 6- treble 5. smooths out the typically (to my ears) sound of p90s while not removing it altogether.
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Miracle Man Bridge:
Bass = 7.5
Mids = 5.5
Treble = 7.5
Awesome Pickup. . . it's light on the upper mids, which makes it soooo not fatiguing on the ears, stupendous design for my dream tone. :D
WR
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TO reiterate chaps
JOB DONE
No more estimates, thankyouplease; they arent getting used for anything as of 2 posts ago.
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And when we'll see results may I ask?
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And when we'll see results may I ask?
+1 to this may I add?
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When the new site is up.
They will be averaged with Tims own, which were very close to the averages here, so what you see will pretty much be the results of this (some were exactly the same, most were only 1 different)
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So MDV -
Unofficially, off the charts, off the books....
What ratings does the aftermath get? If this has been stated elsewhere, then i apologize, and would be glad for a referral link..
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Only Tim and I rated the aftermath.
Both of us independently gave it bass 5, mids 7 treble 7.
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I haven't yet rated the aftermath because, while it's in my axe, I've not had a chance to crank the amp with it!
I will have a think about this after next practice, but we have next week off so it'll be a while.
Roo
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Only Tim and I rated the aftermath.
Both of us independently gave it bass 5, mids 7 treble 7.
That Eq SOUnds AWESOME.
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Tim said the aftermath had 6 7 7 b m t, i'll be getting mine soon.
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7 5 6 would be my magic numbers, lolol. What's closest to that? My Quick Rod really handles all the upper mids and treble I can throw at it as is.
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7 5 6 would be my magic numbers, lolol. What's closest to that? My Quick Rod really handles all the upper mids and treble I can throw at it as is.
that's an overwound nailbomb :lol:
and I don't think that's even possible
a clean booster would give you that extra bass
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that's an overwound nailbomb :lol:
I thought for sure I would hear Miracle Man, haha. I always hear the MM has relaxed smooth mids
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Magic numbers?? for me they would be 6 6 6 but im completely sure i cant design a pickup with that EQ. i will want somethign less and something more on that. ahahahahahahha
Q: p
jp
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Crawler-bridge in a swampash strat/maple neck/ebony fretboard. Not easy to define, but I give it a shot.
B: 6
M: 7
T: 5
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that's an overwound nailbomb :lol:
I thought for sure I would hear Miracle Man, haha. I always hear the MM has relaxed smooth mids
both nailbomb and miracle man have a fair amount of lower mids, but they both have an overall relaxed midrange
miracle man has more treble and bass, though
didn't have them in the same guitars, but in quite similar sounding les pauls
I felt more the lack of mids with the nailbomb, although it's a very fat sounding pickup
the cold sweat that I have in that guitar now sounds noticeably more middy, and the sweat is far from a mid heavy pickup like the painkiller or holy diver
nailbomb had more low mids, but the sweat's center and upper mids are much more present