Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Dr. Stein on July 10, 2010, 06:33:44 PM
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I've heard no end of good things about amps built with London Power's power scaling, but it's not exactly cheap by my understanding so I've been wondering if anyone has any experience with the various alternatives that are on offer. I think tone at low volume is a really important issue for a lot of guitarists so It's strange that there's such a lack of discussion of this sort of solution. Thought I'd try and get some going.
Hall's VVR (http://www.hallamplification.com/main.html?src=%2F#2,2) stuck out to me, as it's pretty cheap.
What (if any) experiences do people have with these or any alternatives and what inputs do any builders or anyone who might understand the circuitry have?
How does power scaling in partcular compare between a retrofit application and a bespoke amp build?
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I've got/used:
* Master volumes
* Power Scaling retrofit
* Power Scaling bespoke build
* Attenuator
What I've found is that the simpler/smaller the amp, Power Scaling is the best option. A Fender Deluxe or 18 watt Marshall for example. Something where you need the power section cooking a bit.
The larger and more complex the amp is, a simple Master Volume is the best option. Plexi Marshalls, or anything else with a full tone stack/presence etc.
Everyone's opinion varies of course, but all things being equal but I favour Master Volumes over anything else (bearing in mind the above).
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Why is that do you think - does power scaling not work as well in large amps or is it that master volumes work better in larger amps?
Consensus seems definitely to be that some amps have 'better' master volumes than others, I don't really have enough experience playing loud to be able to confirm that myself.
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Like I say, it's all down to the amp. If you need the power section cooking to get "that" tone, then you'll need Power Scaling to get the harmonic content into the tone.
I've got Power Scaling in a 60ish watt amp and while it does make a difference in use, it's not "night and day better" than the Master Volume it has. It's just a bit different.
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i have vvr in an 18 watt clone, but i haven't tried powerscaling (which by all accounts is as good if not slightly better), so I'm not going to be much help. :lol:
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There is a lot of discussion around about getting 'good tone at low volume'
Not too much experience with Power Scaling, but other master volumes are something I've played with...
the best sounding MV is all going to be personal preference.
I think i can elaborate on what Twinfan said...
Bigger amps... say a Marshall. The average marshall master volume is feeding into the Phase Inverter. So if you're playing at low volumes, you probably aren't driving the PI or anything after it that hard and doing that has it's own tone (good or bad is up to you).
Now... If you have a Dual Pot 4 capacitor Post Phase Inverter Master Volume (such as in the older JCM800 2205), you can hear this PI/Power Valve relationship! if you turn the PPIMV right down (between the PI and Power Valves) then you loose volume and negative feedback, but if you also have a volume pot in front of the PI (this isn't how the old 2205 is set up) then you can crank it, and you'll hear the Phase Inverter get driven hard at lower volumes with less negative feedback coming into the amp, which (assuming I'm talking about a standard long tail pair) to me makes a kind of fizzy nasty sound in this situation.
If you have a big amp with negative feedback, usually associated with presence and depth controls, then as you decrease the volume using a PPIMV, you decrease the NFB back into the amp and that makes these controls less responsive and alters the tone of you amp. So PPIMV's can cause you to compromise on certain things.
so for me, that is why using a simple MV in a bigger amp is a bit better. I like having the use of Negative Feedback based controls which can compensate hi and low end in a big amp played (kind of) quietly.
smaller more simple amps might only have 1 or 2 gain stages and an output stage. They may only have a volume in the front of the preamp. Turning this up will drive the whole amp. in an amp like that you cant attenuate the signal before the PI to drive the earlier gain stage harder before driving the power stage. You're probably relying more on power valve breakup in those amps too. So if you want drive and lower volumes, PPIMV's are probably not the way to go as they will still decrease signal going into the power valve. Power Scaling or an Attenuator might be better.
Some amps do have 'better' master volumes than others, but that really means they have different volume controls and people have a personal preference each.
for example.
Older JCM800 2205 has a PPIMV which is a dual pot and four coupling capacitors sending signal to ground in the power stage.
Later JCM800 2205 has a master volume between the tone stack and PI. this is a very common setup.
Matchless Lightning has a cross-line PPIMV mixing out-of-phase signals together in the power stage to reduce volume.
Carlsboro 60 TC has a 'Limiter' which is a scale control ON the Phase Inverter which I think decreases volume but maintains perceived drive levels. I've never heard this, I think it's rarely used.
There is also the LarMar PPIMV which is apparently very good in certain amps. I've never heard this either.
They all work a bit differently. You can read up on all the ideas and then consider power scaling also.
In my opinion, I think trying to get the sound of a cranked 100watt amp through a 4x12 at bedroom level's isn't going to work. You might get a good sound, but it will be a different sound. I think one problem most people tend to forget while talking about PPIMV's, attenuators, and power scaling, is the speaker movement. Better to get an amp designed for great tone at low volume than get a big amp and try to get the SAME cranked tone at low sounds levels. If you want the second of those two, I think you're going to be disappointed unless you can compromise.
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Excellent explanation Dmoney - didn't realise there were so many variations to achieve low volume good tone.
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Excellent explanation Dmoney - didn't realise there were so many variations to achieve low volume good tone.
Thanks man. I hope I got it all right. I'm sure the amp guys will add more or correct me.
If its something you want to try and do I think it you need to ask a few people, try a few amps...
research is key
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Yeah, that was a really helpful post Dmoney :D
I fought with low-volume/good-tone for years. I eventually gave up and went the modelling route! :lol:
The biggie is (for folks who think there is a method of doing it, and everyone else won't let them in on the secret): you cannot make your gig amp sound the same, at living room volume, as it does when it's rocking in a rehearsal/gig. All you can do is find a "good" tone that you can live with in the practice environment.
Unless they can afford more than one amp, I'd recommend, if someone's gigging, concentrate on the amp doing the big job, not the living room job.
For me personally, not gigging anymore, the most effective way seems to be a modellor with tones you can live with, through headphones or studio monitors. And even then the bugger sounds better if you're allowed to turn it up! :lol:
I still managed to talk myself into getting a little valve amp though... it's lovely, but to get the "best" I still have to turn the bluddy thing up past "neighbour comfort"... quieter than that, and the modellor still wins hands down for me.
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As I said, it's all amp dependent and there are no hard and fast rules. Try each amp/solution out and see if it suits your needs and the amp itself. There is no "way size fits all" solution.
My best sounding amp for low volume home use? My 100w Bogner XTC.
Go figure...
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My best sounding amp for low volume home use? My 100w Bogner XTC.
Go figure...
:lol: I was wondering exactly that after posting mine - I got the impression that this might be the case the other day after you'd got your hands on it.
I can't remember, have you tried it at band volumes as well? Where does it sit in relation to some of your others then?
I'd be much more likely to lust after some of those others for gigging applications. But over the years I've found that the "must-have" amps for classic-tones rarely sound anywhere near as good as you were hoping at "don't scare the budgie" home-volumes... :lol:
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I've played it for one gig and a few rehearsals. it sounds great at all volumes ;)
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As I said, it's all amp dependent and there are no hard and fast rules. Try each amp/solution out and see if it suits your needs and the amp itself. There is no "way size fits all" solution.
My best sounding amp for low volume home use? My 100w Bogner XTC.
Go figure...
agreed, it depends on the tone you're after. those lower wattage amps generally don't sound like the bigger amps either. and depending on the style of tone you're after, you might not be able to get it in a lower wattage model- there aren't too many modern high gain low wattage amps, for example.