Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: lyonk55 on July 16, 2010, 07:08:44 PM
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So, with some birthday money still left over, I feel I should get myself some stuff so that my recordings sound better. But, being an absolute beginner at this, I could use some help with this. Really I need both the hard and software, since I'd rather replace Audacity. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I need to record distorted and clean sounds, as well as a 5 string bass.
So, what do you recommend?
The Yamaha MW10c was suggested to me because of the price and coming with Cubase - what's that like?
Budget wise, somewhat flexible...basically, I want cheap, but good if at all possible.
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Get reaper
Get one of these or something basically like it
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/1616-m-pci/70952
Doesnt have to be that exact thing, doesnt have to be that expensive, just has to have OK dacs and mic pres. The most important thing about an interface at the level youre at (and a very important thing about every other level) is stability, followed by routing capabilities, followed by latency (the last is a property of your computer and its speed as well). Start worrying about mic pre quality and the transparency of your DACs when the quality of your sources is very high, you have a great live room and you can rip out kickass micplacements like a mother$%&#er.
Get an SM57 and a Rode NT1A
Couple of mic stands
A drum sequencer of your choice (I use and recommend Superior drummer 2, but have used EZ drummer, superior one and DFH and they're all fine, BFD is great, as are quite a few others) and some VST guitar amp sims and some impulses as a back up.
You'll need some decent headphones to start with, I recommend Audio Technica ATHM50, and some monitors, carefully placed in at least a cursorily treated listening position.
Given the difficulty in getting a rooms acoustics well under control and recording live sounds compared to DI sounds, I recommend
- interface
- VSTs + impulses
- Drum sequencer
- Headphones
as priority with
- mics
- room treatment
- decent monitors
as the setup to work toward (if at all, a lot of people stick with the VSTs or 'work towards' the £1500 or so to replace them with an axe-fx, or DI a preamp with impulses added).
I wouldnt personally bother with an outboard mixer because the DAW and usually the interfaces controls can do all the levels and routing that a mixer normally does.
If you decide to take no notice of me, though, this may help
http://www.tweakheadz.com/rigs.htm
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Cheers MDV, I'll have a look into this stuff. Got myself the free Reaper and I'm looking at interfaces now.
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Good advise from Mark there. Also there are bound to be some good 2nd hand interfaces on the bay. I've got a EMU 1820 PCI I don't use now as I switched to a Mac. I should pull it out and flog it really.
What's the spec on your machine?
Whatever you get will open up a new world of better recordings.
Have a look at this place too.
http://songcrafters.org/community/
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Ok, after looking around, I've seens some stuff that might work...
The plan would be to get an E-MU 0202 and a mic (would an AKG D77S be an ok alternative to the Shure?), mic the amp, running to the E-MU and use Reaper as my recording software (and would add a drum sequencer to this later).
Would this give me a somewhat decent sound?
I know you mentioned other stuff MDV, but it's just a little too much for the moment.
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I haven't recorded much yet, most I've done is a test of quad track guitar over sampled drums.
If you want to keep things cheap there are plenty of free good amp sims and impulses if you have a decent soundcard and DI, don't have to worry about horrible sounding rooms either.
No idea of free drums sims though :(
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As a long-time Cubase user (since it came on two floppy disks for the Atari ST!) I'd definitely recommend it, does pretty much everything you need as regards audio/MIDI recording. And a good tip is don't skimp on the microphone - no amount of brilliant signal processing can save a recording made with a cheap mic. Shure SM57 (or the budget 57 Beta) is the standard for mic'ing up guitar amps and it'll do vocals at a push. I'd probably scour ebay for a second hand Shure in preference to a new AKG.
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Are you definitely committed to the hardware/software route?
If you're a beginner to recording, you might possibly benefit from something like the Boss MicroBR first. The link that Johnny Mac posted earlier was originally the MicroBR user forum.
That little silver box has helped so many people from "utter-novice" through to "Hey! I can make finished recordings!!! :o 8)". Even if you moved on to a pro/semi-pro PC or Mac based solution in a year or two, you'd still end up using the MBR as an ideas notebook.
If you already have a bass (there's no octave effect, sadly), then the MBR has absolutely everything you need for creating finished guitar-based recordings. I don't use them, but the boss guitar/amp effects are reasonable. I only use it sometimes, but the onboard condenser mic is (to my utterly surprise) good enough for decent vocal and accoustic guitar recordings. I've tried recording an amp with the built-in mic, but didn't have much success. On on the other hand, I'm a confirmed modellor user and have never bothered learning how to mic an amp anyway :lol:. The drum patterns aren't editable, but there are lots of them, plenty enough to build song arrangements.
I don't know how much the MBR is now, I'm guessing about £150. You'd be set with enough kit to get you learning about sound and multitracking immediately.
I got one as Christmas present a few years ago. It was intended as a songwriting tool for on the move. But I've never used my PC set-up since.
The following recordings were tracked, mixed and mastered entirely on the MBR. Apart from the instruments, the only extra kit I used was a Vox ToneLab for amp modelling and an external mic for final vocals. I could have used the internal stuff without losing much (guide vocals were done with the built-in mic, they were usable but I'm used to setting up a mic stand, compressor etc for final lead vocals; the original guide guitars were done with the internal Boss effects - some of them were better tonally, especially on Sooner Or Later, than the final Vox tones I used :lol:).
Absolutely everything else was done with the little silver box that fits in your shirt pocket.
If We Should Sing Together (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7589523)
Muletide (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7244466)
Sooner Or Later (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7765431)
Think about it as another option :D
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I'd recommend the Line 6 Toneport UX-1. It's a relatively cheap interface with Pod Farm, which works great and gives very decent tones. Also has the capacity to record bass and vocals.
As for sequencing software you could try Cakewalk Guitar Tracks. It's what I use and it's good if you haven't got the money for something like Logic.
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I will second the toneport i used it for years with good results and now even with my amp and mic i still use the toneport as a audio interface for the mic.
Reaper is great and free
drum software theres loads of options to go down
steven slate is the best bang for buck ive found as you dont have to eq it or anything it just sits in the mix perfectly all you have to do is adjust the levels to your tastes.
Superior drummer 2 and bfd2 are also great but take a lot more tweaking.
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One note of warning if you are going to buy off eBay, there are LOADS of fake microphones on there. I bought one before I found out, and when it arrived it seemed rather cheap and rubbish, a bit of research and I uncovered the truth. I got my money back and bought from a known supplier for safety.
I'm not saying you can't pick up a good deal on eBay, but find out if the model you are after is one that gets copied (most of the popular ones do, the SM57 is a very common fake). I found a good article online on how to spot the fake SM57's, I'd advise you do the same for any model you choose to buy. The fakes are often quite good copies visually, but there are a few small details that give the game away.
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One note of warning if you are going to buy off eBay, there are LOADS of fake microphones on there. I bought one before I found out, and when it arrived it seemed rather cheap and rubbish, a bit of research and I uncovered the truth. I got my money back and bought from a known supplier for safety.
I'm not saying you can't pick up a good deal on eBay, but find out if the model you are after is one that gets copied (most of the popular ones do, the SM57 is a very common fake). I found a good article online on how to spot the fake SM57's, I'd advise you do the same for any model you choose to buy. The fakes are often quite good copies visually, but there are a few small details that give the game away.
I forgot to mention this, this is the sole reason i went to a local music store and paid the RRP
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whoa. the steven slate drums sound great, and at around 180 you can get the ex pack with the metal expansion and that's already quite killer
the hats sound better than my DFH :(
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whoa. the steven slate drums sound great, and at around 180 you can get the ex pack with the metal expansion and that's already quite killer
the hats sound better than my DFH :(
Yeah they are great kits.
To be honest the metal expansion is great but only for doing covers and whatnot.
The standard ex has 2 or 3 metal kits already with some huge sounding rock kits and the led zeppelin kit.
I was one of the lucky few who managed to get the ex pack for $20 when it was on sale they keep putting these crazy offers on every few months so keep an eye out.
I will certainly post again in the off topic forums when i get an email saying they are on.
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Ok, after looking around, I've seens some stuff that might work...
The plan would be to get an E-MU 0202 and a mic (would an AKG D77S be an ok alternative to the Shure?), mic the amp, running to the E-MU and use Reaper as my recording software (and would add a drum sequencer to this later).
Would this give me a somewhat decent sound?
I know you mentioned other stuff MDV, but it's just a little too much for the moment.
Weeeeelll
I'd say definitely stick with the SM57. I dont know the AKG, they do make good mics but I'm not familiar with that one. SM57 is the way to go because its sound is all over a million rock and metal albums, and as I've said before, if you cant get the job done with that, you cant get the job done. Its the sort of mic that you can start recording guitar with and maybe think 'there are better mics out there', and you will likely find some you like more (my favourite is the MD421) but you can use it and KNOW that the mic isnt a problem. The mic placement is the problem, or the amp settings are the problem or the room is the problem or whatever. Its a bit of kit you can be confident in and eliminate a variable.
I've used an 0202 and it should be good enough sound quality wise, but its a bit slow latency wise, but no matter (expect about 10ms from it, which is sufficient for tracking but kind of borderline; good units get 2 to 4 ms, great units (multi-thousand pound setups) get a fraction of a ms). Its not very stable though, it experiences dropouts. For that reason I'd use a firewire interface. USB can be faster, but its quite CPU intensive and tends to deliver information in a series of bursts rather than a steady stream. Firewire barely uses the CPU and maintains a lower peak speed, but stays closer to that speed so you have more stability for audio. Look at a firewire interface round the 150-200 price would be my advice.
If you go with the 57 and a more stable interface then you should be able to get a decent sound, yes. The variables that will beset you and affect the quality of your recordings when using a mic at home are the sound of the room, the close reflections that you get from a typical home recording environment, mic placement (an art in itself to learn) and learning to adjust the settings on your amp so that you arent really thinking about the sound in the room from a few feet away, but so it sounds good more or less right at the speaker and to a mic up close. Dialing in for a good room sound and dialing in for a good sound for a close mic to sound good in a mix are VERY different things, and its a mental switch and steep learning curve, but certainly you have the ingredients there to get good results.
Remember - recording is much less what you use than what you know. If you know what youre doing you can get very good results with very modest kit. An SM57, room in a house and reapers stock effects and processing is certainly 'modest', but good results can be had. For example
Powerball; ubercab; V30; MD421; Fireface 800; Reaper + Superior drummer 2.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3702469/Memento%20Mori%20%28Remix%29.mp3
The SM57 would be grittier in the mids, and give less flub in the low end and more attack and sparkle in the top, and I rather wish I had used it, actually, or at least dual miced with it, cant really be certain what the difference would have been between the fireface and emu pres because I never used the EMU pres when I used EMU on the same gear or in the same room. I doubt the difference would be night and day or anything though.
Edit - to elaborate on the stability of the interface thing - note that I recommended a PCI unit. I've used that exact one extensively, and went for it and the PCI in general because its a good unit (much better than its little borthers) and PCI is as fast and stable as it gets. After that its Firewire (subject to the quality of the firewire chipset: apples own are obviously excellent, and texas instruments make superb firewire chipsets, but many stock motherboards suffer from instabilities and dropouts on their budget firewire chipsets, so maybe get a PCI or a TI firewire card to stick your firewire interface on. USB and firewire are the way the market is going, and has been for some time, not because PCI is inferior, its not, its better, but because it can be good enough (more than good enough, in fact, with the right configuration) and you can get a USB or firewire interface and use it with more or less any machine, and its portable.
In summary, all things being equal, in speed and stability, overall,
PCI > Firewire > USB
In overall practicality, provided you have a decent firewire chipset
Firewire > PCI > USB
Since with a good firewire chipset the gap between it and PCI is pretty much closed, and you get the added flexibility/ease of use/practicality as well.
The above is mainly my experience and subsequent opinion, and if you (or anyone) learns or knows anything that contradicts it please tell me, but its the best guidance I can give on the matter.
Utterly ignore USB 1.0, if any are even still made; its niether stable nor fast enough.
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And if youre recording a miced amp DONT FORGET THE HEADPHONES!
They're vital. You need something accurate with good isolation, and the best I've found that has both of those are the ATHM50s.
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I'd recommend the Line 6 Toneport UX-1. It's a relatively cheap interface with Pod Farm, which works great and gives very decent tones. Also has the capacity to record bass and vocals.
As for sequencing software you could try Cakewalk Guitar Tracks. It's what I use and it's good if you haven't got the money for something like Logic.
This actually did cross my mind, and the more I think, it's probably the route I'll take. Can the Toneport be used with the line out from my amp?
Also, with Steven Slate drums, there is an "EX" version. Is that an expnsion or a massively reduced version? If it's a stand alone, it looks like it could be quite good for the £65 ish it will cost.
Thanks for all the info again MDV. I never got round to mentioning in the other thread, but that song is pretty great. It's making me consider a Ceramic Nailbom or Aftermath for my eventual second BKP set.
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the ex is the standard software
has 10 kits including some great metal,rock,pop ones
you can also build the kits from the independent kit pieces and mix samples together
like 2 kicks and or 2 snares to get the best of two samples you like.
the platinum is just the ex with all the add ons.
I think they currently have a deal where you can buy ex + 2 add ons one of which you get free for a decent price
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I just checked, $159 for the basic + 2 expansions (~£103)...seems pretty good...
How is the Line 6 Toneport/Pod Studio UX1...both for direct recording and if I decided to us it as an interface for a mic later? And can I run the line out of my amp into it?
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well i have used one for direct recording for a few years and still use it for bass & clean guitars.
www.myspace.com/transcenduk
all those clips are done using the line6 modelling only other than the magic cover
and
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21786.0
this one is using a sm57 micing my tsl into the toneport.
as for hooking your line out in do you mean for recording and then using impulses or just for straight up recording?
i have used the line out on my marshall into it with poor results but i actually think thats more the cab emulation thats on the direct output.
And to be honest just the slate pack is more than good enough for anything the magice recording was done with one of the standard metal kits.
the and justice for all one was using the black album kit from the metal and more pack
but i cant actually see myself using much of the metal add ons other than the black album kick and a few of the cymbals for my original stuff.
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Oh yeah i forgot to add i am using the cheaper toneport GX rather than the ux1.
the modelling and everything is the same the only differences is the output is a stereo 3.5mm trs rather than seperate 5mm jacks
and theres only the one input but this can still be used with mics with a xlr to jack convertor
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I'd recommend the Line 6 Toneport UX-1. It's a relatively cheap interface with Pod Farm, which works great and gives very decent tones. Also has the capacity to record bass and vocals.
As for sequencing software you could try Cakewalk Guitar Tracks. It's what I use and it's good if you haven't got the money for something like Logic.
This actually did cross my mind, and the more I think, it's probably the route I'll take. Can the Toneport be used with the line out from my amp?
Also, with Steven Slate drums, there is an "EX" version. Is that an expnsion or a massively reduced version? If it's a stand alone, it looks like it could be quite good for the £65 ish it will cost.
Thanks for all the info again MDV. I never got round to mentioning in the other thread, but that song is pretty great. It's making me consider a Ceramic Nailbom or Aftermath for my eventual second BKP set.
Quite welcome, and thanks :)
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Oh yeah i forgot to add i am using the cheaper toneport GX rather than the ux1.
the modelling and everything is the same the only differences is the output is a stereo 3.5mm trs rather than seperate 5mm jacks
and theres only the one input but this can still be used with mics with a xlr to jack convertor
Well in that case, I'll probably go the GX; the UX1 only seems to have different imputs and has an effect expansion.
So, Line 6 POD Studio GX + Steven Slate drums for now I think and may add that SM57 off in the future sometime.
Thanks once again for everyone's advice.
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Remember to get a copy of reaper its very flexible and simple to use. And you are welcome.
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Another Thumbs up for Steven Slate Drums. I purchased mine for $20 through the AudioMidi.com no brainer deal and I can say for sure it is worth the full retail price. It's flexible and the samples of the classic kits are of the utmost quality.
In Reaper you can also do drum replacement on Acoustic drum tracks with just the built in plugins.
Audio Track of Kick drum
FX Chain
ReaGate to isolate the hits from any spill
JSplugins SStillwell/drumtrigger Translates the hit's to midi from the transients.
Send the Midi output of this track to the Midi in on your SSD VST instrument track (Very easy to do with Reapers powerful routing)
Viola :D It's not as pretty as Drumagog or Trigger but it's free and you can trigger any sample from your library not just GOG's or triggers proprietary format :)
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Saw this in an old mag this morning:
Samson G Track - £137
We Like: Single device for multiple tasks; all leads included; decent sound quality for the price; stand
We Dislike: At this price, absolutely nothing
Seems you can pick them up for less than £100 now. Don't know if this would be any use.