Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: HTH AMPS on August 14, 2010, 01:46:31 PM

Title: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune (UPDATE)
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 14, 2010, 01:46:31 PM
ok, so this BC Rich Mockingbird I got is doing my head in, it tunes up to pitch, then seconds later drops back down a little - I can do this ad infinitum and its the same problem.

any ideas before I smash it to pieces in the back street?

Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Stevepage on August 14, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
Make sure strings are well stretched, maybe using some lubricant on the bridge posts and make sure every bolt and screw is tight.

Unfortunately some times all these things don't work and that means you'll have to get a tech to take a look.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 14, 2010, 01:58:08 PM
Make sure strings are well stretched, maybe using some lubricant on the bridge posts and make sure every bolt and screw is tight.

Unfortunately some times all these things don't work and that means you'll have to get a tech to take a look.

should've said I'd tried all of the usual stuff like this - strings are WELL stretched in, I NEVER have any tuning problems with any of my hardtail guitars, oh and I play 11s.

Anyone?  Bueller?

Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: d1dsj on August 14, 2010, 02:07:49 PM
Had a similar problem with my Wayne T type when I first had it. It turned out that one of the screws that hold the actual nut assembly was loose and it was moving ever so slightly... and I mean only a little.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: MDV on August 14, 2010, 02:31:04 PM
It can be a million and one things with the floyd, really have to see it to find out whats going on with it.

But

One other thing to consider is neck relief - if you've changed gauge up a lot (I know you like heavy strings) without changing tuning that much then the neck will be bedding in again. Necks do this at wildly differing rates in my experience (from my legras, which take about a month to drift with a big guage change, to a remarkably elastic necked explorer I worked on once that did pretty much what youre describing going from 10s in E to 13s in D, but was fixed bridge).

Leave it in whatever tuning, out of tuning, even, for a few hours or a couple of days to let all the stresses and tensions in it level out, then fine tune it and see if its stable. If its not then the first things to check on the FR are nut stability/string slippage and knife edge and post wear.

Edit - and make sure you make note of any changes in relief.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Keven on August 14, 2010, 02:45:00 PM
that's what i was about to say. i had problems with a particular jackson i was setting for a customer and the neck relief was causing alot of problems with tuning. this one had a duff neck and it just warped at the slightest change in weather. the other floyd problem i had was due to the knife edges making the floyds sit sharp when you dived or sit flat when you pulled.luckily i was able to order just a base without the saddles so the customer saved a bit, also changed the posts for good measure.

i know i basically just echoed what MDV said but i've also seen these problems myself. to be honest the jackson's neck was so ''elastic'' i think the customer ordered a tremol-no for this guitar so i can't help on any solutions. take it to Jonathan?
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Matt77 on August 14, 2010, 02:49:40 PM
had a similar issue with a floyd once and it turned out to be the knife edges
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Copperhead on August 14, 2010, 03:03:34 PM
All of the above plus... make sure bridge is staying level. Tired springs will "sag" under steady pressure, then when you move the trem they seem to go back to normal, only to sag when left alone for a few minutes.
Which is why you should block the cavity, make it dive-only and put a D-Tuna on there!!  :lol:
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Pete24v on August 14, 2010, 03:12:30 PM
or get a trem-setter
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: FELINEGUITARS on August 14, 2010, 05:29:28 PM
How many springs you got in there Ian?
Are they still at good tension at the neutral point ?
Any pix?
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: FernandoDuarte on August 14, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
Ra! Welcome to the Floyd punishment :P
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 14, 2010, 06:19:07 PM
How many springs you got in there Ian?
Are they still at good tension at the neutral point ?
Any pix?

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.  I have upped the gauge to 11s, but it was doing the same thing with the 10s it had on prior to my string change to 11s a couple of days ago, so I'm ruling out the string gauge change.

I've had the entire trem off today, the posts show no sign of wear, same with the knife edges - the guitar is practically brand new, very little use.

Its got three springs - I've changed them to have a little more tension by having them set up with the outer two springs as per the picture below...
(http://www.militarygearhq.com/100_7719.jpg)



Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: gwEm on August 14, 2010, 06:25:10 PM
i assume its a quality floyd?
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Dazza1004 on August 14, 2010, 06:36:01 PM
I found this really useful when I had my Jems

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/index.htm
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: FELINEGUITARS on August 14, 2010, 07:20:29 PM
try :
Remove middle spring and tighten spring claw up to restore balance
this will put remaining two springs under greater tension (even in neutral/rest position)

This may remove odd behaviour
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 14, 2010, 08:42:06 PM
try :
Remove middle spring and tighten spring claw up to restore balance
this will put remaining two springs under greater tension (even in neutral/rest position)

This may remove odd behaviour

will give that a try, cheers J.

as for the Floyd, its likely a Korean one as these BC Rich's are made in Korea.  are the real-deal original Floyds a straight swap? it is even worth doing this?



Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Stevepage on August 14, 2010, 08:53:10 PM
They are direct drop ins so that shouldn't be a problem.

However if the problem keeps persisting and you really want to keep the guitar then I'd go for an original floyd rose. Even used they're usually in good condition.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: gwEm on August 14, 2010, 08:55:22 PM
try :
Remove middle spring and tighten spring claw up to restore balance
this will put remaining two springs under greater tension (even in neutral/rest position)

This may remove odd behaviour

will give that a try, cheers J.

as for the Floyd, its likely a Korean one as these BC Rich's are made in Korea.  are the real-deal original Floyds a straight swap? it is even worth doing this?


the 'real' ones are much better... but i count the modern 'ping' floyds as real ones personally.

i changed a dirty knock-off floyd to an OFR one and the difference was night and day, and tonally especially!
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 15, 2010, 11:25:52 AM
OFRs are around £150.00 though (ouch!!!!).

Might keep my eye out for an old 80s/90s cheapy metal axe with an OFR and put the Korean one on it to resell.

Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 15, 2010, 11:46:25 AM
so are the OFRs the absolute best? - what about the Schaller ones?  or Gotoh? 

these on ebay look promising, comments appreciated (I've been out of the floyd thing for 15 years)...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Schaller-German-made-Lisc-Floyd-Rose-bridge-black-/120602921885?pt=Guitar_Accessories#ht_3082wt_911

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Jackson-Floyd-Rose-Trem-/220654237912?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV#ht_500wt_1154

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gotoh-Licensed-Floyd-Rose-Trem-Tremolo-Bridge-Black-/350369953190?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories#ht_671wt_912

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Floyd-Rose-Original-Black-R2-R4-Nut-/150480371201?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories#ht_500wt_1154


Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Stevepage on August 15, 2010, 11:57:22 AM
Well according to John Suhr, Original Floyd Roses aren't what they used to be. He changed to Gotoh trems as their quality is a lot better. He found that he had to work on every Original Floyd rose he got, something to do with shoddy saddles I think.

Considering the high quality of Suhr guitars I'd be confident with using a Gotoh and they're a bit cheaper.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Stevepage on August 15, 2010, 12:01:25 PM
http://www.online-discussion.com/Suhr/viewtopic.php?t=5479

That's a link to a discussion on the Original Floyd Rose thing.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: HTH AMPS on August 15, 2010, 12:52:17 PM
thanks for that - will check Gotoh out.

also spoke to my local guitar guy, he reckons its a common fault and the trem posts going into the body are usually to blame.

gonna take it over to him to checkout.

Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: dave_mc on August 15, 2010, 04:52:53 PM
the gotoh one is very nice, but (if i remember correctly) the studs are marginally larger than the OFR ones, so if you want to use the gotoh studs you'll probably have to drill (i assume, i know nothing about DIY :lol: ).
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Philly Q on August 15, 2010, 05:20:08 PM
Well according to John Suhr, Original Floyd Roses aren't what they used to be. He changed to Gotoh trems as their quality is a lot better. He found that he had to work on every Original Floyd rose he got, something to do with shoddy saddles I think.

Considering the high quality of Suhr guitars I'd be confident with using a Gotoh and they're a bit cheaper.


That does fit in quite conveniently with the fact that all the other bridges Suhr use are Gotoh as well....  :wink:  :P


It may well be true though.  Floyds are anathema to me, so I'll never find out, but cynicism apart, I'm a big fan of Gotoh hardware in general.



Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: MDV on August 15, 2010, 07:51:58 PM
I'm not a FR abuser (I tend to block them) but the gotoh is very well engineered; at least as good as OFRs and schallers (so basically, at least as good as schaller, since they make OFRs anyway).
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Ribboz on August 16, 2010, 12:43:20 AM
You prolly could send it to Feline for a setup? I think he does that.
I've heard decent stuff about his work.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: FELINEGUITARS on August 16, 2010, 02:37:38 PM
OFRs are around £150.00 though (ouch!!!!).

Might keep my eye out for an old 80s/90s cheapy metal axe with an OFR and put the Korean one on it to resell.



OFRs are actually closer to £250 - I know - I've just ordered one for a custom build through the official importer
I suspect that there are some "grey imports" on ebay although the real ones seem to be £175+
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: hunter on August 16, 2010, 04:27:44 PM

I had the same issue on my Axis. Turned out the blades/studs had some nicks, that's the death verdict.

So I got a new Gotoh from WDMusic, installed it carefully and I am stressfree since. Only thing that's a bit of a headache is that the D-Tuna only leaves VERY LITTLE fine tuning on the low E. This works much better with an OFR. 
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune - HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!
Post by: Ribboz on August 18, 2010, 04:13:43 AM
OFRs are around £150.00 though (ouch!!!!).

Might keep my eye out for an old 80s/90s cheapy metal axe with an OFR and put the Korean one on it to resell.



OFRs are actually closer to £250 - I know - I've just ordered one for a custom build through the official importer
I suspect that there are some "grey imports" on ebay although the real ones seem to be £175+
Geez!! they cost a lot more in Brit. :\
Title: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune (UPDATE)
Post by: HTH AMPS on October 18, 2010, 05:33:40 PM
after this thread, I ended up taking it to a tech locally but it sat there for five weeks and nothing got done (he was backed up with work). 

anyway, I ended up taking it back without getting any further with this, but I changed the springs in the trem cavity to four new ones (in place of the three in there before).

it appears to be behaving at the minute, so touch wood its been a cheap fix (£1.00 for the springs)
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune (UPDATE)
Post by: Transcend on October 18, 2010, 07:45:00 PM
Have you tried a trem stabiliser.

I put the Goldo Back box on my edge and it keeps it absolutely solid even after loads of abuse.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/goeldo_blackbox.htm

thats all it is. Fits between your springs and works like a charm really cheap too.
Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune (UPDATE)
Post by: HTH AMPS on October 19, 2010, 04:08:04 PM
Have you tried a trem stabiliser.

I put the Goldo Back box on my edge and it keeps it absolutely solid even after loads of abuse.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/goeldo_blackbox.htm

thats all it is. Fits between your springs and works like a charm really cheap too.

what does this 'do' ???

I still want to be able to use the trem both up and down.  To be honest, its not even an issue now - I've been playing the Mockingbird again today and it's rock solid.  Just goes to show, something as basic as the springs were at fault (nice one Jonathan at Feline for suggesting this, take a bow).

Title: Re: can't get floyd rose to stay in tune (UPDATE)
Post by: Transcend on October 19, 2010, 04:59:13 PM
basically it returns the trem to a fixed point after use so it always goes back perfectly into tune.

You still have complete use of the trem and it doesnt change the feel too much.

there are reviews of all the variants that have come and gone and there advantages/disadvantages on here

http://joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/