Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: MDV on September 02, 2010, 02:46:54 PM
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Its a fairly systematic error now that people complain about bass in particular in my mixes, occasionally the drums (esp kick).
So wash your bloody ears out! :P
No, seriously, I have no problem hearing it on the systems I mix on and reference on and nor does anyone else that hears any of my mixes on these systems, so since both systems are quite carefully configured pretty high end things and all my headphones are good ones, maybe I'm not mixing in an easily translatable way. So I'm going to set up, if possible (or rather, if this pole ends up saying what I expect it to) another reference system thats representative of what most people are listening on, and hopefully I can use that to make my mixes translate better/learn when it sounds like they will on my normal systems.
So, what do you use?
In case you cant tell, the main things that occur to me are the quality/type of system, and whether you have it set up for a listening position (if you, like me, arrange your furniture around your speakers!) or if they just went where they'll go.
If your exact thing isnt there, please pick the closest if appropriate (for example, with my decent soundcard going into a good-ish NAD amp into B&Ws that are placed roughly equidistantly from the walls and in an equilateral triangle with my head where I normally sit, I would say seperates, listening position), or if its really not there (Ben, I'm looking at you!) go for other.
Please just choose one if you can, if you have one go-to system but if you spend a lot of time on different ones fairly equally, by all means choose multiple things.
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Separates, listening position, in the lounge (but less time than:)
Other: Shure SE-420 in-ear twin driver phones. I spend a lot of time listening to music through these - either via phone or laptop, as I spend a lot of time commuting. They deliver a solid amount of bass with good clarity, and there's no discernible break up at any volume that I use.
I do listen to a lot of music in the car, but not 'new' stuff I'm listening to eg on forums/web in general, so I left that off.
Roo
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Other - digital radio
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I have a few systems that I've put together through the years. The system I listen on most is a Quad 34 pre-amp, Carver TFM-15 power amp, Mission 700 speakers, Carver SD/A490t valve CD player, Rega Planar 2/RB300/AT cartridge record player, Sony MiniDisc & Revox cassette deck. This is in my office so the speakers are on top of a wall unit.
My main system uses Quicksilver valve monoblocks, Carver Preamp Linn Sondek/Ittok/Benz Glider cartridge, Sony SACD and other Carver eqiuipment with Joseph Audio speakers.
My personal system is still a Sony Minidisc, but I have a relatively decent system in the car (Audi Bose system).
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Travel system:
Sony PSP (16/44.1 WAV)
Skullcandy ear buds
Office system:
Arcam CD92
Creek 4240 amp
Acoustic Energy Aesprit 3 speakers
(Nordost cables)
Home system 1:
Linn Karik or Sony PS3
B&K Reference 50 preamp
Krell ST150 power amp
Sonus Faber Minima loudspeakers
(Straightwire cables)
Home system 2:
Arcam DV137
Audio Research SP9 preamp
Rotel power amp (forget the model)
Sonus Faber Concertino or Thiel CS1.6 loudspeakers
(Audioquest cables)
DAW playback:
Tascam interface or PC sound card
Linn LK240 mono block amplifiers
Hales Transcendence One loudspeakers
(Audioquest and Kimber Select cables)
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The B&Ws are killing your mixes.
The point of the triangle should terminate 18" behind your head, btw, not at your head.
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Mostly through Windows Media Player on my PC, with headphones.
Not ideal sound-wise, I know, but it means I can do something else at the same time. And I do nearly all my listening late at night, so phones are more practical than speakers.
I do have a (very old) separates system, but it doesn't get used at all and in fact my stand-alone CD player has been broken for years and I haven't really felt the need to replace it.
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Philly, I always knew you were a heretic, but your blasphemy still shocks me! :)
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Only a little front room (in a very little house).
Speakers are TDL RTL2 One next to the telly near a corner and one in front of a bookcase behind the arm of a sofa (for the first time ever, I actually have to use a ballance control). Denon PMA-250SE amp. Got a Denon DVD 1710 as a CD Player which I use as a temproary measure ( for about three years). Sometimes plug my laptop in with a headphone to phono connector.
Phil - Got a mini disk player for sale if you want another. Yamaha MDX 595. (Your about the only other person I know with one)
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at home i have a sort of mid range (i think) seperates system. i had a NAD C542 cd player, which sounded nice, but i just stopped recognising discs! so now it's:
Cambridge Audio universal player
Yamaha DSP-A5 amp
Mission 6pack full range surround speakers and sub.
i only use the front pair for stereo music, and don't use the sub for music.
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The B&Ws are killing your mixes.
The point of the triangle should terminate 18" behind your head, btw, not at your head.
Killing? Are they really that bad?
Anyway, thanks for the info, didnt know that!
And cheers for the responses chaps
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Philly, I always knew you were a heretic, but your blasphemy still shocks me! :)
Which particular bit of blasphemy? :lol:
I don't have a high-end hi-fi system for exactly the same reason I don't have a big guitar amp - neighbours above, neighbours below, making a lot of noise just isn't an option. I'd be pissed off if they were playing loud music, I'm not going to do it to them.
And to be honest, even if I lived in a remote hilltop mansion I probably still wouldn't be cranking it up much. I don't really like loud music. I just want to hear it, not rattle the windows and shake the floor.
It's better than not listening at all. I'm more interested in the content than the sound quality, anyway (which doesn't mean I'm going to dump all my CDs and replace them with mp3, by the way!)
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Its not about volume its about quality. Youre average mini system or standard pc speakers or whatever are to a well configured good system as a 10 inch black and white tv is to a 48 inch plasma screen.
imo
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I voted Mini system, 'proper' listening position, or close to it.
But mind you it's a Philips MCD-908 with pre-amp tubes, digital power amp and speaker boxes made out of wood with a glass top and ribbon tweeters.
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Its not about volume its about quality. Youre average mini system or standard pc speakers or whatever are to a well configured good system as a 10 inch black and white tv is to a 48 inch plasma screen.
imo
plasma sucks.
I mostly listen to music on my ipod. i use £39 sennheiser in ears. I think they cancel noise and have some in-ear bass response thing going on. Most of what I listen too is shockingly recorded anyway. so meh.
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Its not about volume its about quality. Youre average mini system or standard pc speakers or whatever are to a well configured good system as a 10 inch black and white tv is to a 48 inch plasma screen.
imo
plasma sucks.
I mostly listen to music on my ipod. i use £39 sennheiser in ears. I think they cancel noise and have some in-ear bass response thing going on. Most of what I listen too is shockingly recorded anyway. so meh.
Kind of redundant info for me, mate - I dont have a TV. You get the idea though!
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I was actually going to argue the point... but that would have been stupid.
I know what you mean.
I dont record stuff often, but for me, I only use garageband, but I find i can mix levels in garageband and export a tune to itunes and the levels will be totally different on my iPod. Even if I'm using the same headphones to mix on.
Anyway, since i use my ipod to listen to stuff on mostly, I usually to a fix mixdowns and tweaks until it sounds ok to me on that. Probably not much help to you... but... ya know.
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Best you didnt bother! It would have been wasted on me I'm afraid. Insert whatever high quality display is widely sought after in place of 'plasma' :)
I'd use my iaudio, but I dont trust my senn IE8s at the best of times, and utterly hate my E4s, and the headphone amp doesnt quite have the juice for any of my cans.
I do, however, have several sets of lesser speakers of various quality kicking round, and a couple of lower quality sources and a cr@p amp (sub/amp from an old creative 5.1, DT2200 or something like that), and a decent spare amp, so I think I'll set up a couple of systems more like probably options 4, 6 and 9.
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mini-stereo (convenience speaker placement), car and computer are the main 3- i picked pc speakers (stereo), though at the moment I only have a laptop. But normally I'd be using a desktop with pc speakers.
Oh I listen to music on the tv/digital radio too. :lol:
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Convienent Mini Stereo, monitors and Car is what I picked.
The mini stereo runs off my iPod as does my Car system.
I'm not a fussy audiophile at all, as long as it sounds 'ok' then I'm happy. I can indulge in some of my friends big, expensive, quality systems and appreciate why they'd buy them, I just choose not to. Mainly cos I can't afford a nice Hi-Fi and because there is always something else going on in my flat/car/wherever that I don't often get to fully sit down and listen to the 'quality' of the sound. Just give me good songs :)
Paddy
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I put :
Separates, listening position, Car and PC though I also use my Ipod. I wouldn't say I am fanatical about the sound but I try and make it as listenable as possible. A mate of mine is one of those who likes to by a "system" that has lots of flashing lights and it sounds awful. He played me a track the other day and I remarked upon the cr@p sound (in my most diplomatic manner) and asked him about the eq setting-he said that it was what it was and couldn't be changed. In about 10 seconds I'd changed the setting from "techno" to a more suitable one for rock. Hes a drummer though so he couldn't help it.
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plasma sucks.
I was actually going to argue the point... but that would have been stupid.
Oh what the hell, I'll rise to the bait. :|
Go on then, what's so very terrible about plasma?
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The B&Ws are killing your mixes.
The point of the triangle should terminate 18" behind your head, btw, not at your head.
the 'btw' confuses me - do you mean that as additional or that B&Ws are somehow killing my mixes other than by their location? This has been bugging me!
It has to be said, I dont like them, but I'm not in a position to buy new hifi speakers at the moment.
Edit: they're DM602, series 2.
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Mid-range separates in convenient position, though arranged as such that I can place myself in a listening position if I'm wanting to listen to my own mixes on a non-monitor system. Quick listens to myspace or whatever is generally just through the laptop, though. And I listen to a lot on mid range cans and an iPod when I'm out and about.
Worth noting though, that there's no point in thinking "Ah! It's because you're listening on cr@p gear" when someone complains about your mixes, since the overwhelming majority of people will be listening on rubbish, so you need to mix with that in mind. Or do multiple mixes, one for cds etc, and one that works better on laptops/computer speakers for online streaming, downloads etc cause that's what 99% of people will listen to those on. That or justlisten to it on as many sources as possible and do a best of all worlds.
None of it's ideal, but it's the job nowadays, sadly.
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Worth noting though, that there's no point in thinking "Ah! It's because you're listening on cr@p gear" when someone complains about your mixes, since the overwhelming majority of people will be listening on rubbish, so you need to mix with that in mind.
I know that, thats why I made the poll. Reading before preaching please! I'm not trying to 'blame' anyones gear, I'm at the very least entertaining the possibility that because my gears pretty good that I'm mixing for good gear and people arent getting the best from it on lesser gear, and setting up appropriate reference systems to address the issue, because, yes, it is me that has to deal with it and not complain about peoples gear.
The other possibility is 'cant please everyone'. We'll see. I've dug out my old, little/cr@ppy/little&cr@ppy gear now and have enough to cobble together 4 extra reference systems from cr@p to alright, a mini-system equivelent with random speaker placement and stereo PC speakers at the very least.
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The B&Ws are killing your mixes.
The point of the triangle should terminate 18" behind your head, btw, not at your head.
the 'btw' confuses me - do you mean that as additional or that B&Ws are somehow killing my mixes other than by their location? This has been bugging me!
It has to be said, I dont like them, but I'm not in a position to buy new hifi speakers at the moment.
Edit: they're DM602, series 2.
Yeah, the DMs and CMs were the beginning of the end for B&W; even the Nautilus range which started coming out in the mid-90s on showed B&W's desire to be the next Polk Audio and started building speakers to a price point with mass sales in view. They achieved their commercial goals, piggybacking generations of sub-par speakers built on a hifi foundation and critical acclaim, just as Polk did, but in doing so threw the baby out with the bath water, in my opinion.
The 'by the way' was just meant to be that ... an aside. Ppl seem to think that your head should be one of the points in an equilateral triangle when listening in the near or mid field, but that's not true.
Everyone needs to have a pair of cr@p spkrs to check their mixes on, but you should never mix your material to sound good on them; just use the cr@p spkrs as a reference as to what essential bits will be lost in translation. Tailoring your mix for such playback is a waste of time. I think you're on the right track -- make it sound as good as you know how, reference it on many systems, and then let it go. Deciding that 99% of all ppl listen to mp3 on their cr@ptastic PC speakers shouldn't mean making that your sonic reference! It does ensure that you have enough midrange and high frequency content, however.
Just my 2 cents.
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FWIW, I listen to MDV's clips either on shitety headphones at my work PC or knackered Dell PC speakers at home. Then again, I've never complained about the bass (or alleged lack of) in his clips... :)
Most other music gets listened to either in the car or on some half decent separates in my music room...
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I can highly recommend my speakers (for the price). You can pick them up for between £40-£60. IMHO, Perhaps one of the best speakers you can get for the money
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Logitech 2.1 PC speakers, positioned not too badly but by no means perfectly in my living room. They're good speakers, never had any desire to move to anything more expensive. Never really had the ears to get any advantage out of audiophile stuff :lol:
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Cheers ben. I was wondering, as I think the 602s are brash, harsh and hollow sounding I never really expect anything to sound *good* on them - they do have decent low end extension and resolution though, so I rarely dont hear bass on anything on them.
What are your speakers tonemonkey? Like, that you make or something?
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I know that some of the top mixing and mastering engineers reference with systems that are sniffed at-- Laptop speakers, DAB radios, (even B&W speakers!)... it's all about using a system that you know intimately and can mix to. Check your mixes fold down to mono nicely too, it's really important to be compatible!
For me, most of my music consumption happens in the car, as currently i've no speakers at home :( (not that i'm ever home at a time where i'd be able to listen to anything on speakers!)
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^The mono thing is becoming less and less relevant these days; there are very few playback situations that don't have stereo or summed mono now. There are a couple of exceptions, such as compositions made for instructional videos and the like.
More important than perfect mono symmetry is to make sure all of your tracks are in phase, especially the drums, unless you are using an out of phase signal as part of an overall effect.
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I put car as my pick, but I do listen to decent ish earphones with my iPod sometimes through the day.
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Mostly through creative pc speakers, or Grado SR80 headphones. I am working on getting some hifi or monitors but I have other priorities for my money at the minute!
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AKG earphones(£20) which are good enough for pc and youtubing.
cambridge audio cd,denon inegrated amp and old tannoy super red monitors.these speakers sound great at high volumes
and are completely unsuited to everyday levels!i'm not a loud freak but do love drums when mic'ed or turned up so that
thump is as much a physical sensation as an aural one!
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Either on the Mac if we're having dinner, on my iPod if I'm out running or in the car if I'm out driving. Hardly ever through anything else.
I don't have any high end HiFi gear - I can't afford another hobby! My neighbour has a great sounding system - not sure what he has though.
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^The mono thing is becoming less and less relevant these days; there are very few playback situations that don't have stereo or summed mono now. There are a couple of exceptions, such as compositions made for instructional videos and the like.
More important than perfect mono symmetry is to make sure all of your tracks are in phase, especially the drums, unless you are using an out of phase signal as part of an overall effect.
Whilst there are very few true-mono devices around these days, quite a few don't really act as stereo-- ie, laptops, whilst actually being stereo, due to the distance the listener is from the speakers (and the path the sound takes from the speakers to the listener), the material is summed somewhat. Youtube used to be mono i believe. If a track is used in the background of a tv show (it could happen!), it's likely to be mono if it was 'heard' on a radio in the show. I agree that it's not the most important thing in the world to be mono-compatible, but personally i think it is good mixing practice :)
Being phase correct is the trick to having a good mono mix-- get the phase right, and your mix should sound pretty good in mono anyway :)
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old setup a year and a bit ago was creative audigy 2 sound card with sennheiser pc150s, now an asus xonar stx card with sennheiser hd650s
spent about £100 on the old stuff and £400 on the new, still can't tell difference between mp3 and flac but I can tell the difference in the gear
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What are your speakers tonemonkey? Like, that you make or something?
TDL RTL2.
http://www.tdl-loudspeakers.co.uk/rtl2.htm
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These days, my iPod, in work. Simply because I need something to take my mind off what I do, and I never seem to be able to settle down and listen to anything at home*.
I have, however, spent more on a pair of headphones recently than I usually would. Got a pair of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003A8416I/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
cost me £30 from HMV, rather than the £10 or less that I usually spend on new iPod 'phones. Totally worth it, I realise how F-ing tinny the in-ear type of headphones really are.
* - admittedly most of my in-work listening tends to be podcasts, predominantly wrestling stuff and the various podcasts Kevin Smith is currently doing (mainly SModcast, Blow Hard and Jay & Silent Bob Get Old)
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Used to be a full on audiophile, lots of amps, quality separates, etc. Came to the conclusion a long time back that I'd shagged my hearing with years of going to concerts and it was a waste of money. I still like a good powerful sounding system, but the music is more important now than the accuracy...
Saying that, by happy accident my current system runs a trio or Dynaudio active monitors on the front of it (a pair of passive domestic Dynaudios on the rear). Those coupled with a cheap Yamaha HC amp providing processing duties and a REL sub in the corner provide a sound that is way greater than the sum of it's parts. I absolutely love it. I can also prove that I'm no longer an audiophile by the fact that I often run it in the DTS music mode, which adds a level of pseudo-projection to the music and works incredibly well a lot of the time. That and the sheer lack of 'proper' sources: system (http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/misc/system.jpg)
But mostly I listen to music on the computer that has a cheap mini system and a pair of tiny kefs on it that I bought on ebay. It works and doesn't sound too shiteee.