Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: 5F6-A on December 17, 2005, 08:32:16 PM
-
I've been told by a friend the the caps that Gibson installs these days in its Historic Custom Shop guitars aren't real bumblebees at all. They look like the real thing but this guy x-rayed one and opened it later on only to find a modern Wesco Ref. 32PL cap made of polipropilen film ( 22nF ) within the "fake" plstic covering. Isn't that outrageous or what??!!
The whole story ( in Spanish ) plus photos here:
http://foros.guitarramania.com/viewtopic.php?t=49106
What do you think??
-
What do you think??
I think these days Gibsons suck. I went in to a local music store recently and played around with some of the Gibsons on display and they all had quality control issues. One had a ding and the finish had sunk into the wood in a really ugly way; one had the worst bookmatched top of all time; another had scratches; others had things wrong with them, but I forget the details; and so on. And here's the thing: those guitars weren't cheap! They hadn't been reduced like crazy; they were still going for very high prices--thousands and thousands!
I've heard stories like this from other people everywhere, so it's not just an isolated incident. Gibson are producing inferior instruments too often and still charging like they're the best around. They use their marketing campaigns to cover for them instead of actually improving their quality control. And it seems to work pretty well for them; everywhere I look I see some teenage guy playing power chords on a low-slung Les Paul.
I don't want to offend people here who play Gibsons--though it's probably too late--but it gets to me when I see big companies who don't seem to care about the people they're selling to, so long as people are paying.
[Waits for flaming to start.] :twisted:
-
For the price Gibsons are going for, you could probably get a totally perfect custom LP for the same price or less! I wasnt impressed with the ones I played, they honestly didnt feel any better than my Epiphone.
-
i think les pauls are a damn sight better than (stock) epis (i know yours has BK's, tom ;) )
are they worth the price? i haven't tried enough LP clones/copies/whatever_you_want_to _call_them of a similar price to tell...
they're nice guitars, but are dear for what they are, IMO...
do i still want one? you bet, if i can find one without the quality control issues, at a reasonable price. And, assuming I don't find a much better example from another make/brand at a lesser price.
-
I was an Epiphone player with my first guitars, and when I got the chance to buy my first 'proper' Gibson (although only a studio, still £900 is enough for a 19 year old at the time), and after that I shant be buying anymore Gibsons. I like the neck shapes, so now I've gone custom to get a strat made with the neck profile I want. If that works out, then thats how I'll be going from now on. I've said it before, but I was just pretty damn dissapointed with my Gibson!
The only Gibson I could think of buying now would be the Les Paul Special Doublecut, simply because you can pick up one for under £500 and I want some p90s...
Regardless, what are these 'bumblebees'? Are they the tone pots or something?
-
Regardless, what are these 'bumblebees'? Are they the tone pots or something?
Yeah that's right. Those were used in vintage examples.
Tone caps in Les Pauls affect the overall tone because they behave very much like a resistor; depending on waht material they are made ( among other factors ) they change the pot's load.
-
Im a Fender fanatic myself and not a particularly good guitarist - but I recently played some Gibsons and the best of the bunch was the P90'd dc Les Paul Special - the cheapest of the lot at £500. So go figure - a LP Standard at £1200 had sharp fretwire and a more cumbersome neck than the £500 budget Gibson which was perfect.
Strange....
-
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88146&page=1&pp=40
english version there...
-
I think it's time we finally admit to ourselves that Gibson doesn't exist anymore, it's just a con-man in a Gibson suit, with rights to the Gibson name. It's just another company copying Gibson, only they can do so legitimately and claim Gibson's heritage is theirs. And yes, thousands will be suckered into it, but if they're happy and the other stuff stays cheaper as a result I won't complain.
-
Gibson doesn't exist anymore
Don't agree with you there. I brought my son a Gibson SG Special 2 years ago and it's a great guitar. Around the same time I got myself a Gordon Smith GS-2. I sold the GS as I couldn't bring myself to play it after playing the SG. The SG was so much better than the GS.
-
Hmm,
not owning a gibson it's hard for me to judge, but everytime this thread turns up it's always les pauls that are complained about.
Is it only the LPs or is it the whole gibson range. Having recently tried the double cuts and a few SGs I thought they where pretty nice guitars and where not out classed by the Tokai (for example) equivalents.
I know most people dislike the stock pickups (thets why everybody is here after all).
IMHO Fender had to raise the bar in the 80 & 90s with their US made instruments simply because people where saying that the MIJ models where better.
As for whole business about caps (and carbon comp resistors), certainly from those in the know on the stompbox world it's up there with the audiophile notion that only mahogany knobs on control pots give proper sound reproduction.
Yeah I know mica caps have a different signiture to ceramic (and whatever other comparasons you wish to list). But theres bigger issues than wether it's a goldfish, rainbow or 'standard' cap installed.
Rob...
-
My intention is not to claim that Gibson's guitars are rubbish. I'm a very happy user of a 91 les Paul std. What I tried to say is how big names sometimes use dodgy techniques to fool people.
The new bumblebess caps are NOT like the old ones but rather made to look like the old ones. Mind you, a brand new Fender Twin Reverb looks 100% like an old BF Twin Reverb but what you find inside is not quite what you expected.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
-
If it is tone we are after nowdays, we have to put it back on the guitar. They do not sell it anymore. It is time and money consuming. Lots of trial and error. :)
-
My intention is not to claim that Gibson's are rubbish. I'm a very happy user of a 91 les Paul std. WhatI tried to say is how big names sometimes use dodgy techniques to fool people.
The new bumblebess caps are NOT like the old ones but made to look like the old ones. Mind you, a brand new Fender Twin Reverb looks 100% like an old BF Twin Reverb but what you find inseide is not quite the same.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
Unfortunitely this is the nature of big business, lets squeeze more money out of the customer but also lower the cost of whatever it is we produce.
Though remember Gibson may well have asked for a vintage spec (orange) cap and received an orange cap that is in the ballpark.
Though in saying that there is probably a huge stock of eith NOS caps or a mfgr who for an extra $0.05 per 100 could have made sure of the 'real thing' being used. After all how many caps a year whould they have to buy for their custom shop guitars (they charge enough).
In the world of electronics, look at the efforts marshall have had to go to to release their hand wired amps (and the associated cost), and they're still different (but apparently close)
Even building a fuzz box to vintage specs is almost impossible mfgrs change their transistor & diode specs without notice, and a special run for anything less than a couple of million componants isn't an option.
I jusy can't help wondering if the real production problems that Gibson are thought to have applies across their whole range as it was in the case of Gretch and Fender.
Unfortunitely it's a case of compromise :( but it dosn't excuse mistepresentation (for want of a better term).
Rob...
-
Instead of trying to make replicas of vintage guitars/amps etc. Can't they figure out something that's simply better?
Kinda like BKP does; vintage pickups were handwound, BKP scatterwinds and wax pots them. Wich all results in a product that's better than vintage.
I'm sure someone makes a resistance cap that's better than the bumblebee.
-
I'm sure someone makes a resistance cap that's better than the bumblebee.
Thay are too scared...too many false "new and improved" campaings have made some companies to go safe; an safe in guitar business is spelt V-I-N-T-A-G-E
-
The problem with the bumblebee's is that they are an old design, and more reliable capacitors exist now that don't "leak".
Isn't £900 rather expensive for a Les Paul Studio? I thought they were only around the £700 mark.
-
:D Have to say i`m with Ratty on this one. Guitar makers shoud stop trying to reproduce the past & should start trying to make the future !
The only guitar maker on the market for along while doing this was PRS they took the good things from the past & added modern attitudes to it & modern techniques & have revolutionised the entire industry. They`ve done it so well that Gibson recentley had `em in court trying desperatly to get them "Handicapped" by the legal system.
If you want a good quality LP shaped guitar the buy a Tokai Love Rock, PRS single cut or get a Custom build.
:D 8)
-
What about Line 6 and Ibanez?
-
They're new though, as opposed to an older "more respected" company keeping up with the times and new ideas etc. It's one thing for a young company to innovate, but the older ones are afraid incase they harm their golden legacy, a legacy that was brought about under previous ownership (in most cases) anyhow...
-
a pic of an original cap and the reissue
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/5F6-A/2CondPequ.jpg)
they look fairly similar but hey! through the unbiased eyes of the x-rays the original is full
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/5F6-A/Bumblebee.jpg)
and the reisue is "empty". Iti's not paper-in-oil at all but a modern plastic cap dressed up as the real thing
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/5F6-A/Reissue.jpg)
incredible
-
every so often Gibson is bought over by a new consortium, who vow to improve the quality up to a standard befitting the heritage and reputation of Gibson. at first, the quality does improve, but pretty soon they just go back to the same ways and start selling the decidedly average guitars at the high prices, cutting costs to maximise profit.
the quality control is patchy, even on Custom Shop models sometimes, but sometimes you find a belter. you just need to try a lot of them.
but their main problem is the board think they can sell more guitars by making niche market models, like the 'GT', 'Menace', 'New Century', 'Vixen', 'Goddess' lines... when they'd be far better to produce a traditional range of well put together guitars. putting a plastic air intake and racing stripes on an SG doesn't make it a better guitar, but Gibson executives don't seem to realise that.
-
eurgh i hate that SG GT thing. appauling.
I don't understand why anyone in their right mind would shell out for a modern gibson. My £200 MIJ Greco Mint Collection EG-600 Les Paul custom easily owns every modern Gibson LP I've ever played.
There is something about vintage guitars though. I can't resist the vibe of an old guitar, honestly used and aged. Vintage guitars should be vintage, not modern reincarnations... although i do find myself seduced daily by a certain 1960's reissue relic'd stratocaster in daphne blue...
-
but their main problem is the board think they can sell more guitars by making niche market models, like the 'GT', 'Menace', 'New Century', 'Vixen', 'Goddess' lines... when they'd be far better to produce a traditional range of well put together guitars. putting a plastic air intake and racing stripes on an SG doesn't make it a better guitar, but Gibson executives don't seem to realise that.
I agree Gibson have a strange approach to re-vamping their product line. Rather than coming up with new designs which stay in the line - or simply fine-tuning traditional models, as Fender do - they change the cosmetics and a few features of existing models - then discontinue them after a year.
They do get it right occasionally though - the Firebird Studio is as cool as can be (no doubt I'll look on their site in a minute and see it's been discontinued... :roll: ).
And the Vixen would be a cracking little stripped-down rock guitar if they'd offer it with a '59 neck and standard-width nut. I'd buy one in a second.
-
i'm pretty impressed with the look of those explorer pro's - great alternative to a run-of-the-mill LP without being too extreme. the 90% body size and maple top make it far more interesting to me than your usual explorer anyways.
-
Well, as an owner of 3 Les Pauls & 2 Flying Vs (& one time owner of an SG & Explorer) I have to admit that I've been drawn in by Gibson guitars. I play one of my Les Pauls & can imagine that I'm playing an instrument like some of my heroes played (even though it probably bears little resemblence to what they had).
However, I totally agree that Gibson's quality control is atrocious. You often hear it said that Gibsons "need a bit of work" as if it's the most normal thing in the world. For example my Goldtop is indeed a nice guitar after Feline refretted it & fitted BKPs to it.
But should a guitar costing >£1200 require ANY work doing to it? Would we tolerate this from a maker that didn't have Gibson's heritage & history (i.e. pulling power)?
This isn't to say that all Gibsons are bad. Some are fantastic instruments. But you have to shop around, look VERY hard & not get carried away by the rack of shiny goodies in the shop.
Pay particular attention to the fretwork (smoothness of the fretboard, seating of the frets, whether they've been evenly filed all the way up the neck, the fret ends) - this IMO is their real weakness. Crackly pots, sticky tuning machines, flaky/corroded hardware can easily be replaced, as can stupidly small strap buttons (IMO anyone in their right mind fits straplocks anyway). Even poorly cut nut slots can be relatively cheaply fixed. But a refret is a major job (& major expense) that very few of us can do ourselves.