Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: ketot on October 12, 2010, 06:03:59 AM
-
Hi, I have an epiphone sheraton (es 335 style guitar), and it currently has stock pickups.
I'm happy with the bridge pickup tone i can get, except for one thing, and it's gonna be really hard to put into words, but here it goes:
Sometimes with a good rig, when you play a chord (or anything more than one note at a time), you can count the number of strings being played and isolate out certain notes in your head. A good example of this is The Ocean by Led Zeppelin, and All Your Love by John Mayall with Clapton (right at the start of the solo where he plays those arpeggiated chords, count those notes!). When i try to do that with my pickups, it just gets all jumbled up
I'm trying to get a set of pickups that can do that, overdrive, but no mud, and I am convinced that BKPs can do that (generally, good pickups should be able to do that, no?). However, there's actually quite a lot of choice here for pickups, and this brings me to the main point:
Which set of pickups can get me the tone that Clapton gets on the Beano album? Note that I can already achieve this with my current pickups, and I want a set that can get me the same tone as well, just that with the ability to un-mud when playing more than one string. Being able to get Jimmy Page's tone at Led Zep's 1970 Royal Albert Hall concert would be cool too, but that might be a bit difficult, bearing in mind i have a semi hollow body guitar.
Speaking of getting slightly loud, i can also achieve Jimmy's tone with my rig, by virtue of cranking it up pretty loud (on a small 4 watt tube amp, the Vox ac4tv). But this would mean that im not getting as loud as the big amps, while still getting around the same kind of level of overdrive. Anyway, would i want to wax pot the pickups, if the max level of gain i go to is around jimmy page's level? I don't play anything heavier than that, and some say that unpotted pickups have better tone (also it's microphonic or something, and at a kings of leon concert, the guitarist was yelling into his pickup, and it was getting picked up. that was cool).
Another thing on potting, my stock pickups vibrate and put this low feedback (the bad kind) whenever i play too loud (ie 4 watts almost maxed, with an overdrive pedal with quite a lot of boost). I can kill the feedback by putting pressure on the pickup to stop it from vibrating. Just putting it out there, the more info the better, i guess.
Now back to tone: I only ever play with overdrive on the bridge, hardly ever play it clean. Neck pickup, well, the stock pickups are muddy as hell, to put it nicely, and thus i hardly ever play them. Don't sound good clean, but when i drive it a bit, i get this real woody/hollow tone which i like, and would love to be able to replicate. Also, rhythm playing on the neck aint cool, due to, once again, muddy pickups. This one once again references the point where you can 'count the notes', it would be awesome to be able to play crunchy rhythm chords without muddying up.
this guy (also a forum member) in this video also gets some good tone on the neck pickup, some less aggressive blues tone going on there, that's nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0-nrNYdbp0&feature=related
He's got Stormy Mondays (A4 magnets) i think, those sound good, not too polite, but not too rough, especially in the neck. Sounds like it could cop some good jazz tones too, which is a plus.
I'm cool with mixing and matching pickups, so something like a mule in the bridge and a stormy monday in the neck sounds tasty, but would a pickup thats too hot in the bridge really mud it up? semi hollows traditionally work well with low output pickups, would a Mule work well in the bridge? I dont really care for preserving the woodyness or the acoustics in the bridge, as, like i said before, i use it mainly for overdrive.
So, with all the info above, imma summarise it:
1. what pickups for Beano tone, thats the main tone i'm trying to replicate
2. should i wax pot the pickups
-
Greetings :)
One really important thing to remember is that pickups alone will not bring the world to your fingertips :lol: The way you play, the way you set you gear, the quality of the acoustic tone of your guitar etc will all contribute to your overall tone.
BKPs will bring you more clarity, that's a given, and having had potted and un-potted pickups I would say if you're using the guitar for gigging go with potted. It's just much less hassle and less to worry about dealing with on stage. If you're purely playing at home, and/or have a super magnificient gutiar that you can really hear all the subtle tone textures of and want the finest 'feel' you can get, I'd go with unpotted. All my opinion, obviously :)
I'd go with AII Stormy Mondays as these are the pickups of choice for a 335-style guitar around here. Also, if you want Beano tone, I've got closest in my guitars with AII PAF style pickups. My Gibson Pearly Gates LP, with Seymour Duncan Custom Shop Pearly Gates pickups (AII magnets) does that tone a treat into the right amp :D
-
I'd second all of that.
I was thinking Stormy Mondays, although I've not tried them.
I can get passable Beano noises out of Mules in a Les Paul type, and Riff Raffs in a warm sounding SG. But that's a bonus for me, those guitars are aimed at a wide range of blues to 60s pop to classic rock stuff.
Welcome to the forum from me as well :D
-
:D
from what i've read around this forum, AII SM blurs the bass, and people tend to stick with the AIV SM.
But I had a listen to a few clips of the SMs on youtube, and the bridge just sounds a bit tamed for my taste, which is why i was thinking something slightly hotter.
Riff Raff and the Mules, what's the diff between both of them, tone-wise? Riff Raffs would be slightly lower output, more rock and roll maybe? seems to be associated with chuck berry in the case of semi hollows, and angus young on the sg.
funny that mules don't get much mention in semi hollows, cos i'm really keen to know what they would sound like.
I'm pretty much set for SMs in the neck, i like that tone.
So, imma be gigging with this, pot it. i guess you're right, that its only worth leaving it unpotted if i had some unobtanium grade guitar, so potted for practicality
AndyR, funny, i would have thought Mules in an LP would be like, bang on Beano tone
-
Mules are AIV and moderate output. Beano tone, to my ears, is a LOT of amp. You don't want to be pushing things too hard. I stand by my AII SMs as the closest thing to what Clapton's LP had in it. It's quite a warm sound, and a little soft. The amp has the bite and the punch.
Riff Raffs are bright and hard sounding, which is why they work well in all mahogany guitars. The guitar brings the mids and the warmth. Riff Raffs in a 335-style would be more Tele bridge pickup sounding than Strat neck pickup if that makes sense?
Clips by other people are all well and good, but they could be using 1 year old strings and a foam plectrum etc. Plus they won't play like you do!
The best thing you can do with pickups is just take a punt on something and try them. You've then got a reference point to refine things further and work out which direction to go to next :)
-
its all relative. a2 stormy mondays are slurrier in the bass than a4 SMs or a5 riff raffs, but its not like your playing death metal. you will be happy with the bass definition of a2 stormy mondays if thats the way you decide to go!
i've tried stormy mondays in a gibson semi acoustic, and they sound absolutely amazing.
-
just listening to 'Beano' now.. does he use a treble booster on this?
-
It's been questioned MANY times gwEm, but Clapton himself always said it was just the amp turned up loud. I think what people forget is that the Bluesbreaker combo he used would have been brand new. Taking an old combo now, after the parts have aged, will dull and soften the tone a bit. A fresh Bluesbreaker will be brighter and zingier.
My LP straight into my JTM45 1/4 stack with Greenbacks gets the tone to my ears.
-
It's been questioned MANY times gwEm, but Clapton himself always said it was just the amp turned up loud. I think what people forget is that the Bluesbreaker combo he used would have been brand new. Taking an old combo now, after the parts have aged, will dull and soften the tone a bit. A fresh Bluesbreaker will be brighter and zingier.
My LP straight into my JTM45 1/4 stack with Greenbacks gets the tone to my ears.
really interesting stuff twinfan... it does sound very treblebooster-ish, but then again trebleboosting is a subtle effect.
i do agree with you though that its a very amp-driven tone. i would guess i could get something similar with one of my t-top or riff raff loaded Vs and my thundertomate treble booster if i tweaked the amp enough. the bass is kind of soft sounding, but the top end bites like hell. i'm not sure a5 would be soft enough in the low end though to quite reach that sound.
-
so, stormy mondays would get me the closest to this eh?
AII or AIV? I took a look at Tim's post on magnet types, but i couldnt seem to put the words into tone in my head. someone care to explain whether i the AII or AIV would be more suited to the beano tone?
AII SM seem to be the one im leaning most towards, judging by your posts.
AII SM for the neck and bridge?
-
Exactly gwEm - that's what I reckon. Remember the Greenbacks in the combo would be brand new as well, not broken in and warm sounding. They'll be full of bite ;)
You can get close with lots of things, but I'm a firm believer that you need the warmth and syrupy-ness of AII to really get that tone. You'd struggle to get a decent "All Your Love" out of Riff Raffs...
-
so, stormy mondays would get me the closest to this eh?
AII or AIV? I took a look at Tim's post on magnet types, but i couldnt seem to put the words into tone in my head. someone care to explain whether i the AII or AIV would be more suited to the beano tone?
AII SM seem to be the one im leaning most towards, judging by your posts.
AII SM for the neck and bridge?
Hello McFly? Are you reading the posts of myself and gwEm? :?
We've tried a LOT of BKPs, in a lot of guitars, and we've both stated AII SMs are what we think will work. There's two recommendations for you.
At the end of the day just do what most people do - order something and see how you get on :)
-
sorry if i came off antagonising on that, twas unintended :)
k, SM AII it is then. Thanks for the recommendations
-
Sorry ketot - didn't mean to come across as a bully :oops:
If a set of AII SMs don't make your Sheraton sound good then I'd be very surprised :)
-
AndyR, funny, i would have thought Mules in an LP would be like, bang on Beano tone
:lol:
That's exactly what I thought after I'd posted it! But I'm not sure Mule is the way to go on a semi (not sure why, just general impression from reading), so I didn't push for it... (by the way, I get better Beano impersonations, not copies mind, just "in the right vibe", from the Riff Raffs in the SG :lol:)
I think TF and Gwem are probably barking up the right tree. But I suspect you have the same worries I'd have - is there enough oink? I like getting my oink with just the guitar and the amp, no pedals - if that's you as well, then bear that in mind. The original Beano tone might well be lower output and it's actually mostly the amp - but if that's not the way you work, then that route isn't open to you without changing your whole approach, so a compromise of some sort is in order...
Also, I've just remembered that you want the JP at Albert Hall tone (lovely tone, btw) out of the same beast...
There is another option - I've never used it myself though - drop Tim/BKP an email as well as listening to us, point him at this thread :D
EDIT: And like Dave (Twinfan) said earlier - a lot of that tone is in the fingers... but you probably know that already if you're chasing it :lol:
-
All good points Andy :)
Hotter pickups pushing the front end of a 4w Vox doesn't smell like a great recipe for Beano success to me though!
-
all good Twinfan :)
sending off emails are gonna have to wait for awhile, because im not getting these pickups till right at the end of the year, probably even january next year. So i'd rather send the emails when i can confirm the order, so that i can tell Tim what i want there and then, no need to refer back to past emails, know what i mean?
so sometime between now and then, this thread is gonna go underground till i revive it when its time to buy new pickups. but im always up for discussion till then.
how i get whatever tone i want, is by setting the amp just on the verge of overdrive, then leaving an overdrive pedal on forever, dime the level and the treble (sort of like a pseudo treble booster), and just play with the volume and tone knobs to get to the sound i want.
i may be getting building myself a rangemaster clone in the future (which i also plan on just leaving it on forever), and that frees up the overdrive pedal. raising the volume on the amp and the use of the overdrive pedal might be able to get me into the general ballpark of JP's tone, just that not as fat. But thats for another time, i'll experiment with that after getting new gear and all that, shouldnt be too hard to get there, you'd be surprised as to how good the vox ac4tv sounds. the virtue of small amps - turning the volume up :D
though you're probably right, might not want pickups that are too hot. no idea whats the 'hotness' (if thats what we call it) of the stock pickups though, doubt they're that powerful. normal epiphone pickups.
-
I have A4 Stormy Mondays in my 335 and they sound great. You can drive them and get the Crossroads sound, or back them off for All your Lovin'. If you want something more sparkling (I'm thinking FLeetwood Mac's Black Magic Woman), then a set of PG Blues might suit, I have them in a Les Paul and love the sound. They have a bit more push than the Stormy Mondays. Mules have a thicker sound (though A5 Mules might be great to get a fatter sound such as the Goodbye Cream tones or even Paul Kossoff's sound with Free).
-
All good points Andy :)
Hotter pickups pushing the front end of a 4w Vox doesn't smell like a great recipe for Beano success to me though!
Actually... yeah!
I have an AC4TV as well Ketot. I can only use it on 1/4 or 1W settings but my humbucker guitars on 10 don't fair so well as the strats and teles do through it. The Mule'd LP-type (a Tokai Love Rock) does the best, on a good day really well, but if I go much above half way on the amp volume things can get a bit hairier/mushier than wanted.
Having said that though, using the volume and tone controls on the guitar give GREAT rewards through the AC4TV. I probably run both guitar volumes on the Love Rock at about 6 most of the time when it goes through this amp.
EDIT: Ahh, you posted while I was typing. If you're using a pedal like that (I've never managed to get the results I want that way), then I think the SMs might well have plenty oink! :lol:
I love my little AC4, but it's just too darned loud for how I want to use it. I got a Laney CUB 12 recently and that covers some of the same territory, and more, and I can get it quiet!