Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: transmetropolitan on October 14, 2010, 03:33:17 PM
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First post here for me…
I’ve had a read around of some of the other topics about Strat sets. I’ve not seen my circumstances covered elsewhere so I thought I’d ask myself…
I have a US Standard Strat (S/S/S) with an alder body and maple/maple neck. Until recently I’ve never had a big problem with the stock sound of the guitar.
What happened recently is that I got a chance to play a couple of vintage guitars and… whoah. All of a sudden my 2006 Strat doesn’t sound so good.
Aside from the tone, it was incredible how those 2 old guitars not only sounded better, but feel more solid better to play, stay in tune longer etc etc. Amazing. Quite why Fender evidently can’t build guitars today as well as it could in 1973 or 1967… I don’t know. Another discussion for another thread perhaps.
I should make it clear at this point that my own Strat was carefully selected – I played over 100 Strats before I chose the one I bought, including a number of Deluxes and Custom Shop models. Compared to the others I played, mine was the best (subjective opinion I know, but gives you some idea that I do have some frame of reference here). And my guitar has been professionally set up regularly since I got it, I’ve not neglected it.
Back to my own tone quest…
I’d love to drop the big money on a vintage guitar, but alas, I don’t have it. So I’m wondering whether I can find another way into this ballpark of tone. I’m looking for a ‘modern’ tone (and the best way to get this is playing 40 year old guitars through 30 year old amps :lol:) but in my case modern does not equal high gain. There’s the odd splash of high gain in there, but in the main it’s clean or with a bit of overdrive. More indie style, Bloc Party, that sort of thing.
Most of those kinda bands use Teles. Not me. For one thing the other guitarist in my band uses a Tele and the separation from using different guitars is good. For another I actually prefer the sound of the Strat bridge, smoother and slightly less savage than a Tele bridge. With that said, I am looking for something pretty bright, (hence my choice of maple/maple neck) kinda spiky if I want it to be but without being unpleasant. I do also use the neck and middle PUPs to back off the treble assault, but positions 2 and 4 are kinda no-go areas for me.
So first up, do people think changing out the Fender pups for a set of BKs will get me closer to the tone I’m looking for?
Secondly, what would you recommend?
My first instinct was Mother’s Milks. I don’t need crazy high gain, and coupled with my vintage epiphany I thought this looked the best choice for me. I believe conventional wisdom would pair them with a rosewood board, but in my case I’m kinda looking for something a little over the top… However maybe there’s something else I should consider?
The Mark Knopfler tone of the Sultans… I mean, he’s a GREAT guitarist and all, but tonally I’m worried – I don’t want to sound like this! He's like the antithesis of the tone I'm looking for. Maybe I’m being totally irrational however…
Anything else I should consider?
Thanks in advance.
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Welcome! :D
Someone who waffles as much as I do :wink: :lol:
On "the is it worth doing" front, I really don't know. I picked out a CIJ 62 (alder, rosewood board) from loads of strats a few years ago, loved it above all comers for a few years and then suddenly found that some of the reasons why I picked the thing on the day aren't really what I want in a strat after all. I've managed to get her back into my good books with a fair bit of fiddling (stripped the back of the neck, Sultans, and bridge unit upgrade). BUT the biggest thing, although the upgrades have helped, has been in accepting what the guitar does herself.
It almost sounds like that might be the case with you? You've tried another strat and discovered your favourite doesn't ring your bell like it did. It's possible you won't get what you're looking for now out of this guitar... That's no reason not upgrade the pickups though... that guitar does do cute stuff, you picked it for that stuff originally, and BKPs will bring out its good points... but there's a big danger that you'll still want a slightly different strat as well :lol:.
On that front, have you tried the Roadworns? That's what did the damage for my CIJ - I've got one 60s and one 50s. If you haven't tried one yet, do. It might be what you're after, and won't break the bank like a "real" one...
On the pickup front, it might be Mothers Milks, especially if you think you want more brightness than other folks - but I've not tried them.
What I'm gonna say is Apaches. I've had them for nearly a week in the 50s Roadworn. I've been avoiding them for a couple of years myself, but I'm blown away now I've got them. I think they're what you want. I always feared they might be a bit "smooth" and lacking top end. Nope, they are just all round stratty goodness with a lovely punch to them.
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Will a pickup upgrade help? My answer would be yes, but then I upgrade pickups in most of my guitars. If you like the late 60-early 70's strats used grey bottom pickups, and for them you would be looking at mothers milks or irish tours. I wouldn't put IT's on a maple neck strat because they are very bright, but Mother's Milks would work well. Don't think Mark Knofler with the Sultans though. They vie with a couple of other sets as my favourite strat pickups. They can give a clean non-harsh sound, but they do rock as well.
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I would join in with Andy here and say Apaches- though equally Phil makes good points, I can't help thinking that Apaches would do it and if you are happy with the guitar then I think it a worthwhile upgrade.
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If you are into pristine cleans sound, Apaches. The Sultans will rock a bit better.
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Thanks for the replies guys. Appreciate it.
Re the Roadworn Strats… I’ve tried a couple of ‘em. I like them OK, but nothing special. For one thing I don’t like them cosmetically – the bodies look good but I don’t like the necks on ‘em at all. The setups on the guitars I tried weren’t good… perhaps it’s worth giving them another look? I can see they would make ideal upgrade candidates because of the Tex Mex pixkups. I suspect to get what I’m really looking for I need to start saving though.
So am I right in thinking:
Apaches – best for clean sounds
Milks – slightly brighter and better for gainier stuff
Sultans – balanced somewhere in the middle?
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I can tell you how Apaches & Sultans compare in my Roadworn 50 (that's alder with maple).
Both Sultans and Apaches are fabulous at cleans. In my hands on this guitar, the Apaches have slightly more oomph to the tone, really brings out my vibrato and are excellent for strummed chords. I mean really excellent - I've never got a decent "hey strum some acoustic chords" out of any strat before (including this one), I'd always think tele or SG for that sort of work. But this guitar with Apaches has a nice "tightness" to strumming now. Sultans gave it a lovely clean strat tone, but Apaches shade it for me in this one, just a bit more authority to everything.
Now, gain, how much are we talking here? :lol:
Most of the time I set my amp just the wrong side of hairy and run the guitar volume at about 8 for slightly hairy crunch, 6 or below for clean, 10 for scrunchy crunch and lead (the tone control, wired as a master, has a LOT to do with it all as well). If I was gigging again I'd probably also have some sort of boost pedal to push 8-10 a bit further. So, I'm not into too much gain, but I rarely set an amp up as "clean".
Anyway - with my settings above, the Apaches and Sultans do roughly the same sort of job. The Apaches have more punch than the Sultans did. It's partly bottom end, but I think there's something in the mids as well - lowering the Bass on the amp by a notch or so makes the Apache version closer to how it was with Sultans. At the moment, the Apaches suit me far better in this guitar, they're just as musical as Sultans, but it gets nasty in a blues-rock and rock and roll way... which is roughly where my heart lies. The Sultans were a little more polite and even sounding, and I had dig harder to get what I wanted sometimes.
I've just been trying the Apaches out with more gain, I hadn't done that yet. I wouldn't personally say Apaches are "best for clean sounds", but it depends what sort of dirty sounds someone's after! I'd say it's raunchier with the Apaches, more of an old school tone. With the Sultans it was smoother, more modern sounding (modern = mid 70s - mid 80s to me :lol:). The Apache version is more in-yer-face, and I can see this holding its own in a mix, whereas usually if I want gain on chord-work and riffs I'd reach for a humbucker guitar or a tele. For lead stuff at this gain, the Apache definitely has what I want, the Sultans seemed a bit thinner to me in this guitar.
It sounds as if I've got a down on the Sultans... BUT NO! :lol: The Sultans in the CIJ (alder, rosewood, slightly mellower sounding acoustically) are now competing very favourably with the Apached Roadworn.
Basically, I want my two Roadworns to be musical and refined, but I also really want them to be dirty blues-babes when you push their buttons (clean or with gain). Apaches do it for me in the 50s, Irish Tours do in the 60s. Play nice and they hum their little tunes, dig in and they start moaning and groaning and generally giving me what I want.
I've tried for at least three years now to make my CIJ do the job, but it won't. And to be honest, now I've got the Roadworns, it really doesn't look like it should either - it's a lovely shiny fiesta red :lol:. Now I've accepted this, the Sultans do a fine but different job for me in there. They're generally musical at all levels of gain I throw at it, and they make her sound like a lovely strat. Crank it up, and it is smoother sounding than the other two, but that's great for certain stuff I like - eg Robin Trower. I have a feeling that in a different guitar again, the Sultans would absolutely kill, but I don't own that guitar! :lol:
I've got a feeling that you want the ability to go slightly more "in-yer-face" sometimes. If that's the case, out of the Apaches and Sultans, in my maple board strat, I'd say Apaches. But I would dearly love to know what Mothers Milks could do in the same situation :D
(By the way, it's the CIJ with Sultans that I need to reach for if I want to play, er, Apache, or Atlantis, etc, etc... :lol:)