Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Doadman on December 01, 2010, 02:30:56 PM
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I've been listening to a lot of Guthrie Govan recently. What a guitarist! He seems to have a really versatile tone that runs from a vintage style warm and organic tone to a really cutting and modern sound. I was wondering which Bare Knuckle pickup does the same sort of thing (especially for a Jackson SL3 8)). All I know about it is that it has a DC resistance of 17 and some sort of Alnico magnet.
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nailbomb
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A Nailbomb set would be my first port of call for that. They have that midrange push Guthrie seems to favour, with an dynamic response and open voicing that belies the contemporary output. The Alnico mags keep the top end getting harsh under all circumstances, and the heat means you get enough output for usable split-coil tones.
Guthrie really rides the guitar controls all the time while he plays. If you set yourself up with a British-voiced tube amp not too far over the point of breakup and a great overdrive pedal (Xotic BB preamp would be a good call for this, and I've seen Guthrie use one many a time) you should have all you need to play and sound like Guthrie... Well, maybe not, but that's all he seems to need!
EDIT: I should add that a middle single coil is highly preferable to get the "strat position 2/4" sounds Guthrie uses a fair bit. A Mother's Milk would sit nicely in there, giving you a bit of a volume drop as you select it to reign back the gain a tad.
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I don't particularly want to sound like him, it's more that the tone not only seemed really good but also highly versatile. Nailbomb was one of the pickups I'd first thought about for that tone but I seem to remember reading a thread once where a guy had a maple thru-neck and Alder winged body like mine and the Nailbomb didn't suit it. The other option that crossed my mind was the Crawler as that seems to be quite organic and middy.
I think I'll concentrate just on the tone of Guthrie as I'm damn sure I'll never play like him!!
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A Crawler could certainly work, though it's a fatter sound than I would normally associate with Guthrie. Still, if it's a bright guitar it'll be a similar vibe. The Nailbomb would be a pretty safe choice in your guitar IMO, but if you're worried then try out a Crawler.
When I've spoken with Guthrie he has said he prefers a bright sound that he can sweeten with the tone knob, than having a dark one and no way of making it brighter without having to resort to fiddling around with the amp.
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I disagree about the nailbomb having a mid push
mids sound quite relaxed, open and PAF-like
somewhat like a Riff Raff, but a lot more compressed and with thicker low mids, just a bit less high end
pretty much like Govan's usual tone, but he seems to roll off the knobs most of the time, like Nolly (The Great!) said :D
I also thought of the crawler as a second option, but I have no experience with that model :(
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Hmm, I gotta disagree there - to my ears the Nailbomb has a healthy midrange character, with lots of upper mid grind when you dig in.
The funny thing is that we both agree that it's the right pickup for the job, so maybe we have different views on what constitutes midrange :)
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This actually relates to an idea I started to have on the high output vs. low output thread. The obvious choice for my guitar is a Miracle Man with Trilogy Suites and it's a great pickup that I like a lot but when I started to think of all the guitar tones I liked, they tended to be all of the more vintage/PAF style with that warmer and more organic tone. Wanting a pickup with the cut and articulation of a Miracle Man with the warmth of a vintage/PAF seemed like a contradiction in terms yet in a way, that's what Guthrie seems to use; hence my question. While I've been researching pickups for this impossible job I first hit on an Emerald because the clips sounded good but they were all on a Les Paul and apparently the pickup will be too bright for my guitar. Since then I seem to have bounced endlessly between Crawler, Nailbomb, Holy Diver and Miracle Man depending what thread I read :?
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Gotcha, yeah I've seen your deliberations.
I feel like the Nailbomb would be a great point to start out of that group and arguably the best match for Guthrie's sound. To be honest I had forgotten just how awesome a pickup it is until a week or so ago. I'm strongly considering putting Nailbomb sets into a few of my guitars now.
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BKP baffles me. I was expecting to hear that the Holy Diver's, or maybe Cold Sweat's, would be recommended to get a Guthrie vibe. I always assumed NB's were 4 teh epicz metalz. I've heard Guthrie say he prefers relatively low output pups so that his playing inflections shine through more.
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Nailbomb really is a versatile pickup, not really a one trick fire breathing pony. For example, Matt Bellamy from Muse uses it.
It has a certain cut in the high end, which gives it an aggressive edge. I've heard it in two different strats and it presented the different qualities of the guitars very well. Cold Sweat I wouldn't really recommend for Guthrie, not unless the guitar itself is middy and warm sounding.
The Suhr SSH+ pickup used by Guthrie in his signature models is pretty high output, so Nailbomb would fit at least on that part. If the guitar is already bright sounding, you MIGHT have a problem with the high end cut. If it's a bit more on the warmer side, the Nailbomb would probably suit you very well.
-Zaned
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My last guitar used a Cold Sweat set and they were really good but that was a mahogany guitar with a maple/walnut thru-neck. I think they'd be too bright in a Jackson but what do I know! What I like about the BKP forum is that I'm learning all the time. So I know that the pickup that cuts the best and has the tightest response is ceramic but the ones that have the rich, organic tone are Alnico. I also know that the most cutting Alnico is the Alnico V but there are also many other factors that I don't understand so well like the effect of different gauges of wire or the winds used. I assume that making a Nailbomb ceramic will add cut and tightness but it would also lose the tone that the Alnico V provides. Could you add a more cutting edge to the bass of an Alnico V pickup by using double rows of screws or allen screws as I've seen people mention things like that on the forum but never really understood what it does or why. It's all a good learning curve :D
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Could you add a more cutting edge to the bass of an Alnico V pickup by using double rows of screws or allen screws as I've seen people mention things like that on the forum but never really understood what it does or why. It's all a good learning curve :D
Double rows of polepieces shift the resonant peak downwards a tad, so you get more low end and a smoother treble. Not sure what you mean by "cutting" bass, but going DSP will give a looser bass response (though how much will depend on the rest of the pickup design). I wouldn't recommend doing it without the express recommendation of the BKP lads.
BKP baffles me. I was expecting to hear that the Holy Diver's, or maybe Cold Sweat's, would be recommended to get a Guthrie vibe. I always assumed NB's were 4 teh epicz metalz.
Out of interest, which models out of the range have you owned/played?
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Out of interest, which models out of the range have you owned/played?
I've just been reading the forum like crazy. I haven't actually heard any BKP's in person. I just dropped off my guitar to get MM's put in it last night, so I should know in a few days about that pup at least :)
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Cool, I think once you've played a few you'll understand the range a bit better.
I'd describe the Nailbombs as the "do-it-all" pickups of the range, since they've got a classic voicing combined with a contemporary output. They really reflect whatever a player wants out of them - metal guys who dig in hard and play through modern rigs will find them clear and responsive, with plenty of midrange grind and growl; lead players will find the dynamic range and articulation makes them very expressive and versatile; classic rock and blues players enjoy the sweet alnico top end and open voicing; jazz dudes would probably dig their clarity even with darker clean sounds.
After experimenting with some of the more specialised pickups I had kinda written the Nailbombs off as "jack of all trades, masters of none", but getting to spend some quality time with them again reminded me that they have a really killer sound of their own.
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Not sure what you mean by "cutting" bass, but going DSP will give a looser bass response (though how much will depend on the rest of the pickup design). I wouldn't recommend doing it without the express recommendation of the BKP lads.
Ah, for some reason I had thought that going DSP would tighten up the bass rather than making it looser. I had thought that was the rationale behind the original Alnico V Warpig; so it stayed tight and didn't get muddy. Clearly I was wrong so again, I've learned something :D
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Ah, for some reason I had thought that going DSP would tighten up the bass rather than making it looser. I had thought that was the rationale behind the original Alnico V Warpig; so it stayed tight and didn't get muddy. Clearly I was wrong so again, I've learned something :D
Yeah, the Warpig is DSP in order to give it as fat a sound as possible without having to wind it up to a crazy DC resistance. Likewise the Aftermath has DSP so it can be voiced very lean on low end for tightness without thinning out on the unwound strings.
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Yeah, the Warpig is DSP in order to give it as fat a sound as possible without having to wind it up to a crazy DC resistance. Likewise the Aftermath has DSP so it can be voiced very lean on low end for tightness without thinning out on the unwound strings.
I'm a little confused now. I thought you indicated earlier that a pickup with DSP would 'give a looser bass response', which isn't what I want yet you seem to also be saying here that the Aftermath uses them for low end tightness (something I do want) and I thought the Aftermath was supposed to be the tightest and most articulate of all Bare Knuckle pickups. Clearly I've misunderstood something because I don't see how DSP can make the low end both looser and tighter at the same time. Will DSP make an Alnico V pickup tighter and more articulate, like a Miracle Man, or not? I know I probably seem a bit thick here but I'm just trying to work out the pickup that is the best of both worlds. The Emerald seems tight and has a beautiful tone but it's too bright for my guitar apparently. Clips of the Holy Diver sound too loose, fat and flubby on the bass to me but that may just be down to the recording. That leaves the Nailbomb and Crawler, both of which have great tone so it's a question of which one is closest to the Miracle Man in terms of its tightness and articulation and if there's a way of making it more so. I keep mentioning the Miracle Man because when I think of tight, smooth distortion, that's the pickup I think of but all the threads I've read also suggest it's too focused for the range of music I play. I know I'll end up asking Tim anyway but it's not just about which pickup to buy; I genuinely want to learn and understand.
BTW, I haven't mentioned pickups for the neck and middle yet because I think that may largely be decided by the choice of bridge pickup. The Slowhands sound awesome but if I get something like a Nailbomb I think it would need to be Trilogy Suites so they balance OK.
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I had kinda written the Nailbombs off as "jack of all trades, masters of none"
See, I'm looking for more of a straight metal pick up. I play a Splawn Quick Rod, which is notorious for being an 80's Metal amp. I love 80's Metal tone, but at the same time I want a more snarley slightly Modern sound. In other words, I want to keep the Quick Rod as the core of my sound, but work around other components to get a more Modern sound, closer to that of "Countdown/Youthanasia" era Megadeth.
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Doadman, I should probably have been a little clearer - the Aftermath would in fact be even tighter in single-screw format, but would be in danger of sounding thin or harsh in brighter guitars.
See, I'm looking for more of a straight metal pick up. I play a Splawn Quick Rod, which is notorious for being an 80's Metal amp. I love 80's Metal tone, but at the same time I want a more snarley slightly Modern sound. In other words, I want to keep the Quick Rod as the core of my sound, but work around other components to get a more Modern sound, closer to that of "Countdown/Youthanasia" era Megadeth.
I think you'll find the Miracle Man does the job for you just fine.
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Sorry, I just thought of another question relating to magnets etc.
If the defining pickup of 80's Metal was arguably the DiMarzio Super Distortion, which is ceramic, why is the Holy Diver Alnico 5? I've always assumed that the Holy Diver was an improved Super Distortion but surely, if it's after the sound of that era, it would surely be ceramic, which I believe it was originally. Why the change? And if that means the Holy Diver has changed position a little, which BKP is now most like the Super Distortion - Cold Sweat? Miracle Man? I'd have thought the former was too bright and the latter was too modern in its voicing.
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Sorry, I just thought of another question relating to magnets etc.
If the defining pickup of 80's Metal was arguably the DiMarzio Super Distortion, which is ceramic, why is the Holy Diver Alnico 5? I've always assumed that the Holy Diver was an improved Super Distortion but surely, if it's after the sound of that era, it would surely be ceramic, which I believe it was originally. Why the change? And if that means the Holy Diver has changed position a little, which BKP is now most like the Super Distortion - Cold Sweat? Miracle Man? I'd have thought the former was too bright and the latter was too modern in its voicing.
the first version had similar specs to a dimarzio super distortion
second prototype version became the rebel yell
the 16k A5 is actually the third version, and duncan based (JB, of course)
the latest version doesn't sound like Vivian Campbell on first Dio album at all
more like Doug Aldrich on the Holy Diver DVD
but a reissue of the oldest version would be interesting
I don't think it was the same as the cold sweat as someone mentioned these days
similar specs, but I GUESS it had a different wire coating (polysol instead of enamel)
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Sorry, I just thought of another question relating to magnets etc.
If the defining pickup of 80's Metal was arguably the DiMarzio Super Distortion, which is ceramic, why is the Holy Diver Alnico 5? I've always assumed that the Holy Diver was an improved Super Distortion but surely, if it's after the sound of that era, it would surely be ceramic, which I believe it was originally. Why the change? And if that means the Holy Diver has changed position a little, which BKP is now most like the Super Distortion - Cold Sweat? Miracle Man? I'd have thought the former was too bright and the latter was too modern in its voicing.
the first version had similar specs to a dimarzio super distortion
second prototype version became the rebel yell
the 16k A5 is actually the third version, and duncan based (JB, of course)
the latest version doesn't sound like Vivian Campbell on first Dio album at all
more like Doug Aldrich on the Holy Diver DVD
but a reissue of the oldest version would be interesting
I don't think it was the same as the cold sweat as someone mentioned these days
similar specs, but I GUESS it had a different wire coating (polysol instead of enamel)
The old version was a Cold Sweat, I assure you.
Also, worth noting that the JB that it was based on (sonically - Tim didn't copy the spec) was one of the original handwound models, which is a very different pickup to the current ones.
The Rebel Yell was it's own thing entirely. Steve Stevens was using the Nailbomb but asked Tim if he could tighten it up a bit and open the voicing even more. Tim dropped the wind to achieve the tightness and openness, but reduced the coil offset to preserve the midrange.
Don't worry about which pickups are most like another manufacturer's, Just take each on it's own qualities. Tim can achieve similar clarity and tightness with Alnico mags as other winders get with their ceramics, due to the scatter-winding, asymmetrical coils and very high quality components.
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That will be why I liked the Cold Sweats in my last guitar, because I do like that Super Distortion type sound. I'd have considered it again for my curent guitar but my impression was that it might be too bright in an SL3 and most people on the forum seemed to agree with that.
I take your point about viewing BKP in their own right and I agree that Bare Knuckles are a cut above the competition but comparing them to pickups that I know gives me a better starting point in selecting my own. I hadn't even thought about a Rebel Yell before, largely because Billy Idol isn't a sound I associate with my playing, yet your description of it makes it sound quite interesting.
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The Rebel Yells are fantastic pickups. I use them in my two main metal axes. They're very tight, though leaner on the low end than a Cold Sweat is. They're as clear as the CSs, but more midrange emphasis (especially upper mids), and have a characteristically smooth alnico V top end.
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Jesus Christ!! I just listened to the demo done by Steve Stevens and it is exactly what I am looking for. It has the tightness I associate with a ceramic but with a far more organic tone to it. My only concern is that the clip was done on a Les Paul. I liked the Emerald clips too in a Les Paul but was told that in an SL3 they'd be too bright. Please tell me that a Rebel Yell will work well in a Jackson SL3 (Maple thru-neck, Alder winged body and OFR. Standard tuning and going through a Marshall JVM410H as soon as I can afford to buy it next year).
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It could work, yes. It'll be an overall bright sound, but shouldn't be harsh or thin.
Honestly though, I still think the Nailbomb is the optimal choice for you - in a bright guitar it should be rather close in sound to a RY in a dark one.
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There are always the Brass Big Blocks for FRs to swap if you think your sound is bright. The change in sound they make is like a pickups change.
check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZ3w_Qwq2Q
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It certainly makes a hell of a difference. Are they readily available in this country?
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I only know of www.killerguitarcomponents.com and http://www.floydupgrades.com and they're both in the US. I'll see if I can find anything in Europe as I'm interested in those too. But if I won't find I'll order it from the US. I think the ones from killer guitar components are a bit better. They provide screws and metal plates to secure the springs in place.
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It could work, yes. It'll be an overall bright sound, but shouldn't be harsh or thin.
Honestly though, I still think the Nailbomb is the optimal choice for you - in a bright guitar it should be rather close in sound to a RY in a dark one.
I've emailed Tim but I've also trawled this forum and researched everything so I'm reasonably sure what he'll say. It helped a lot finding a clip of a Nailbomb in a Jackson Kelly which, although not thru-neck, is maple neck, alder body and OFR so very similar. My research suggests the following about the pickups:
Emerald - Great pup, probably underused and underrated on this forum but too bright for my guitar.
Holy Diver - Can't get away from the fact that the bass sounds too flubby for me, being used to ceramics.
Cold Sweat - Had them before and loved them but that was mahogany and they're too bright for this guitar.
Rebel Yell - One of the most awesome pups I've ever heard but too bright for an SL3.
Crawler - Great tone, great pup but maybe not quite 'Metal' enough for me.
Miracle Man - One of the best pups BKP do and ideal for my guitar but too much of a one trick pony.
Nailbomb - Seems to do everything well. It seems almost like a ceramic pup from other manufacturers yet retains the warmth of a more vintage pup. It seems to be a 'Jack of all trades, master of most of them' if I can paraphrase a well known saying. I think Tim will suggest this one.
I think the choice of neck and middle pickups will be determined by the choice of a Nailbomb for the bridge. I get the impression that the Slowhands are the best for the PAF-type sound I'm after (early Dave Murray) but probably not powerful enough to sit well with a Nailbomb so I think it will be Trilogy Suites. Now let's see if I'm right :D
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Ceramic-NB Bridge
SH Middle
CS Neck
I would be interested to hear how they mesh together.
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Ceramic-NB Bridge
SH Middle
CS Neck
I would be interested to hear how they mesh together.
Sounds a good setup but for a couple of minor issues:
Surely a ceramic Nailbomb would would take away that vintage-type feel that I'm after with its warm and organic tone. Nolly assures me that an Alnico Nailbomb is just as tight, if not tighter, than most manufacturers ceramics. The neck pickup can't be a Cold Sweat as an SL3 uses an HSS configuration and the problem with the Slowhands is simply power. I read a thread where Antag said he had Slowhands paired with a Holy Diver and they didn't match well so I don't see it being any different with a Nailbomb. I think Trilogy Suites are the only viable option but fortunately thay're really good pickups anyway :D
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Ceramic-NB Bridge
SH Middle
CS Neck
I would be interested to hear how they mesh together.
Sounds a good setup but for a couple of minor issues:
Surely a ceramic Nailbomb would would take away that vintage-type feel that I'm after with its warm and organic tone. Nolly assures me that an Alnico Nailbomb is just as tight, if not tighter, than most manufacturers ceramics. The neck pickup can't be a Cold Sweat as an SL3 uses an HSS configuration and the problem with the Slowhands is simply power. I read a thread where Antag said he had Slowhands paired with a Holy Diver and they didn't match well so I don't see it being any different with a Nailbomb. I think Trilogy Suites are the only viable option but fortunately thay're really good pickups anyway :D
Agreed