Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Doadman on January 27, 2011, 07:29:01 AM
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A key part of the specification of pickups seems to be the power and I assume it's important otherwise we wouldn't have calibrated sets, but just how close does it have to be? I can see the logic in pairing say a Holy Diver (15.9)with Trilogy Suites (12.5) as their power is close but pairing them with Irish Tours (6.3) seems a huge difference. Having said that, the neck Holy Diver is only 7.7 so there doesn't appear to be that much difference.
The reason this question came up was because I'm wanting to buy one of three different Bare Knuckle bridge pickups; the Nailbomb (15.7), Holy Diver (15.9) and Warpig (21.5). The problem is what I put with it. My first thought was to use a Sinner (15) in the neck as they're apparently most like humbuckers and it's really a PAF-type neck tone I'm after, or at least as close as a single coil sized pup will get me. However, there's no getting away from the fact that this is still a single coil so I've been looking at a DiMarzio Pro Track (7.7) for the neck as that apparently has a very PAF-like tone but I didn't know if it would have enough power to balance with the bridge. At first I thought 'probably' in the case of either the NB or HD as Tim pairs them with the weaker Irish Tours anyway but 'probably not' with the WP but I've heard of people using a HD neck with a WP bridge and the HD neck is the same power as a Pro Track. The issue of power seems very confusing so the short version of this very long question (sorry) is just how close do they have to be?
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I understand your point. In practice I notice not that much difference between my Crawler and IT's. Of course the hb has more mids and oomph, but in terms of outputlevel they are reasonably balanced. Maybe, cause the IT's are more present in the uppermids and high notes. They cut trough the mix very well. So loudness in terms of frequencies has an influence of what we experience as volume (must be bad english, sorry).
The difference in dc-resistance is great for splitting, the outer coil of the Crawler with the IT are about the same dc-resistance in this case and deliver great Fenderish-quack. So, I don't think it's so bad too combine a Nailbomb with Slowhands or something similar.
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Thanks for the input. I guess I can stop thinking too much about the power issue. I was originally wanting a Bare Knuckle HSS set but the more I think about it, the more it seems like needless expense. The middle pickup is rarely used and when it is, it's only in conjunction with either the bridge or neck so I figure I might as well just leave the Hotrails in there. For the neck, I really like the sound of the DiMarzio Pro Track. A thick and creamy PAF tone like the early Dave Murray neck tone is exactly what I'm after and sadly, this sounds like it fits the bill better than a Bare Knuckle single coil. For the bridge I'm undecided between HD, A-Bomb and A-Pig. I want a reasonably versatile pickup that can go from a higher gain version of Classic Rock to a heavy Metallica sound. I want a beefy sound that has an articulate but smooth distortion and excellent lead tone. The only other insight I can think of is that I only start to warm to the JB I have in there now when I use a Hardwire Metal Distortion pedal with an MXR Super Compressor where the output and sensitivity are maxed out and the Attack is virtually on zero. Every day I wake up I arrive at a decision only for that choice to change the next day. All three seem very good :? Decisions, decisions!
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To be honest, I think all 3 pickups can get you where you want. It just depends on what you think would pair better with the acoustic tone of your guitar.
You mentioned Metallica, and I happen to be a fan of their stuff. Most of Hetfield's tone on the first 3 albums were really based on the amps/pedals used:
Kill em All - crunchy Marshall sound
Ride the Lightning - Marshall on full bore
Master of Puppets - Mesa Mark IIC+
(Every other album after that just sounds like EMGs with a shite ton of gain lol)
That being said, I have an A-pig, and it's instant MoP tone (full, dark, saturated/thick) through my Mesa Mark III. I've been rambling again...
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LOL, perhaps, but it certainly highlights my problem. All 3 pickups are good, all will do the job in one way or another yet all are different in some way. As a maple neck-thru with alder wings it's certainly brighter than I'm used to (mahogany) so at first I thought it was bright but I've just bought a Pacifica as a backup guitar and that is noticeably brighter still so I'd say the Jackson is a bit more middy now. All 3 seem to have a reasonable amount of mids anyway so I'm not sure which suits me best from that either. I keep thinking that how I use the Compressor with the JB is significant because I like the way it thickens up the sound and makes it more forgiving to play. The notes seem remain articulate yet seem to merge together in a more flowing, smooth way at the same time. I can't really describe it as I don't fully understand what the different controls on the compressor are doing; I just turned them until it sounded better.
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Thick, articulate, and smooth is definitely how I would describe my A-pig. Also, I have it in my esp which is maple neck-thru with alder wings. I'm not the foremost tone expert on this site, but this is the one recommendation I'm qualified to make. Just buy it already!
(http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/ev1ltwin/M1_A-Pig.jpg)
It's got a switchcraft 500k DPTP, and I wired it for series/parallel. I can go from thick and full to Racer-X by pulling up on the volume. Also, the burnt chrome really meshes with the abalone inlays, but that's just a side note.
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That ESP is fine, twin. I'd play C minor 7 arpeggios on that if you know what I'm sayin'. ;)
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my miracle man comes in at 18.3k and my mississippi queen neck is about 8.4k
there is no difference in volume whatsoever and both pickups match perfectly well
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Youre putting WAY too much stock in DC resistance. Its a measure of niether power nor apparent volume. The former is determined by the number of turns and the power (in henries) of the magnet/s, and the latter is affected by frequency distribution/power spectra, harmonic content, resonant frequency and how these interact with human hearing.
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my custom riff raff (8.47k, 4mm alnico 5 magnet) sounds way louder than the miracle man I had
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Thanks to everyone for all this information. Clearly I have been placing far too much emphasis on DC resistance, though in my defence I think it's an easy mistake to make as the rationale I was using is quite logical to the uneducated. It seems that even going as far as a Warpig, a neck pickup of only 7.7 should work fine.
It's also great to hear from someone who has essentially the same guitar as mine and learn about their experiences. Of the three pickups I've narrowed it down to, Antag uses a Holy Diver with great results in a Jackson SL3 and now ev1ltwin uses a Warpig in another maple neck-thru guitar with alder wings and also has great results. So far most of my attention has been on the Nailbomb but that's largely because I liked the HD and WP a lot and the NB just seemed like a good compromise between the two. With such positive reports of the other two though I may change my mind. I don't know why, but my gut instinct tells me that the Warpig will be closer to that saturated sound I get when I use my compressor. I was also very interested to learn of the effects of a push/pull pot with its series/parrallel switch. You make it sound like having two pickups in one. I also liked the burnt chrome cover as if I get a cover, that's the one I'm wanting :D
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the title of this thread sounds like a pantera album.
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the nailbomb sounds completely different from both hd and wp
it's louder, sharper, more focused, less middy and less compressed than both
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I think what I was meaning when I said compromise was including ceramic options I'd also originally looked at. I found the HD very smooth and organic while the huge bass on the WP seemed very powerful but still smoothish. I liked both but the NB had a tight, articulate and aggressive nature in the bass, which is what I like for rhythm work and what I like about ceramics but it still had a more organic nature to it than ceramics tend to have. I REALLY hate the bass notes going muddy! However, the leads on the NB weren't as sweet as the other two, while still being better than the ceramic options. I liked that it was less middy but I still preferred some of the more compressed tones for some things I play. I didn't mean it was strictly between the two; I should have clarified it by saying that it was a compromise between HD, A-Pig, C-Pig, C-Bomb and A-Bomb. The A-Bomb had elements of all the others that I liked even if no individual aspect of the pickup was as good as an alternative. The best tightness and articulation was ceramic; the best lead tone was HD and the really huge sound I liked was WP. They're all bloody good and that's exactly what makes it hard to choose but also what makes them such fantastic pickups. I'd like the HD with less mids or the WP with more highs. In the case of the HD my concern is that in a middy guitar, all those mids will be too much while in the WP it's more that the highs will be lost a bit. The EQs of the ceramics look better but then I lose the organic tone. In reality they're all good so I will either pick one of the 3 at random or speak to Tim and buy whatever he says before I've even hung up the phone!
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I can't really speak too much for BKPs, but just in general, I haven't really noticed a gigantic difference between neck and bridge humbuckers if the bridge is much hotter than the neck (yes, the neck pickup is less compressed and has less distortion, but if anything is as loud if not louder than the bridge regardless), but I've noticed a pretty big difference between humbuckers and single coils, where the single coils have noticeably less output. It might be due to the frequency response as much as the output...
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The a-pig replaced an emg81 in that guitar. The things that I didn't like about the emg was that it was a bit bright and brittle while still being compressed. It was really good for certain sounds (obv high gain compressed/tight stuff, but even really sharp mid-gain sounds like acdc surprisingly) but I got bored of it after a while. The warpig was less compressed, darker, thicker, but still as clear as the emg.
As for the series/parallel thing, it just gives the guitar more versatility without compromising anything. The warpig in parallel is essentially position 2 on a strat, and it's dead silent (unlike a coil shunt, where you only have one coil who completes the ground->output loop when the switch is engaged). I would describe the sound as a really full single coil sound. It's got less output, mids, compression, and more pick attack then the pig in series. It's just a nice variation when I feel like doing more technical stuff with less gain, or if I need to do a sultans of swing cover (though it doesn't really sound like a tradition strat pickup).
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/downloads/schematics/profiles/humbuckers/1hum__4_con_pushpull_pot-series_or_parallel.pdf
There are actually some errors in that diagram. The non-close-up photo of the push-pull pot should have the top right tag soldered to the middle left tag where the green wire gets soldered (he got it right in the close-up). And the instructions at the bottom should say "1. Switch pulled out: both coils in parallel". It appears Tim copy/pasted from the instructions for 1 Hum, 4 Con, Push-Pull Pot - Coil Split lol
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I can't really speak too much for BKPs, but just in general, I haven't really noticed a gigantic difference between neck and bridge humbuckers if the bridge is much hotter than the neck (yes, the neck pickup is less compressed and has less distortion, but if anything is as loud if not louder than the bridge regardless), but I've noticed a pretty big difference between humbuckers and single coils, where the single coils have noticeably less output. It might be due to the frequency response as much as the output...
But do you find a single coil sized humbucker reacts in this way like a humbuker or like a single coil?
ev1ltwin - you're really selling me on a Warpig! I take it you don't find that when you move to leads the treble is drowned out by all that mid and bass.
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But do you find a single coil sized humbucker reacts in this way like a humbuker or like a single coil?
ev1ltwin - you're really selling me on a Warpig! I take it you don't find that when you move to leads the treble is drowned out by all that mid and bass.
Disclaimer: I'm going to ramble a bit and touch on different points... tl:dr style
First: A single-coil size humbucker can sound much more like a humbucker than a single-coil. A seymour duncan hot rails sounds like a high-output dark humbucker (with all of the muddiness too, but that's a different topic), and a Dimarzio pro-track sounds 95% like a PAF (to the point where it'd be damn near impossible to tell the difference unless you were listening for it). Single-coil sized humbuckers and full size are not the exact same because of the size/shape of the magnetic fields, but the coils are wound to compensate for it. It's pretty nifty imo.
Second: I think you're over-analyzing the "darkness" of the warpig. I think there's a lot of negative connotations when referring to something as dark that I think are unwarranted. Maybe a better way to describe it instead of dark is richer, fuller, and, most importantly, less sharp-sounding. Go to the BKP website, and check out the classic rock clip of the Abraxas. Then compare it to the Riff-Raff's classic rock clip. The Abraxas sounds darker than the riff-raff, but not in a bad way (the emg81 was much brighter than riff-raff btw). The warpig is still really clear in that you hear all the notes in the chord; it doesn't get muddy unlike other high-output pssive pickups from other manufacturers. Also, it's not like there's no treble in the pickup! It can shriek if you set your amp that way.
Third: My favorite lead tone is a bridge pickup tone which is dense, "chewy", and with good presence on the top-end. The closest I've found to that sound in my head is 3:15-3:35 of Metallica's "Leper Messiah": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI6Ubb7zJI8. What I've experienced is that it's easier to get the thickness from the pickup and brighten it up with the presence control on the amp. I found myself unsatisfied with the emg81 because it was thinner, sharper, and brighter. What I had to do was turn the presence down on the amp so my lead tone didn't sound harsh. With the warpig, I can get a sound that is denser with more presence at the same time.
Finally: All I can say is that I like my A-pig. I'm not saying that it can get you closer to what you want than a Nailbomb or Holydiver. I'm just not qualified to make that determination! In all honesty, I think you'll be happy with any of the 3, but from what Eric says, it sounds like you should decide between the Holydiver and the Warpig. Especially if you play with a lot of gain, the differences between pickups get less and less. Good luck with the decision.
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I think you're over-analyzing the "darkness" of the warpig. I think there's a lot of negative connotations when referring to something as dark that I think are unwarranted. Maybe a better way to describe it instead of dark is richer, fuller, and, most importantly, less sharp-sounding.
It wouldn't be the first time I've been guilty of over analyzing things :)
Actually what you say is very true. I think the description of a 'huge bass response' does give negative connotations as it makes me think of something that is primarily a rhythm pickup with highs struggling to cut through and probably a tendency to get muddy. I suppose if the A-Pig had the same EQ as the C-Pig I'd be a little less worried but I suspect that like the DC resistence, there's not as much difference in the EQ as I'm imagining from the figures.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYM-W3vYOUE
this is an alnico warpig in a les paul custom
not dark at all
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It's big and bassy but I'd agree that 'dark' is the wrong word. I certainly want a bigger, beefier sound to my guitar as I love that about Les Pauls; I just don't like playing them. It's big, a bit like the HD but also somewhat more raucous. I'd guess the HD is more versatile as it sounds great on the 'Hair Metal' clip and really good on 'Modern Metal' whereas I can't really imagine the WP doing Hair Metal. The lead tone on that video was fantastic and certainly came through OK (unless of course it's the SD 59 I'm listening to :lol:).
Our set is very mixed, hence I need some variety. I think the heaviest song we do it Metallica's 'Whisky in the Jar' and most of the rest of what we do probably sits somewhere between Iron Maiden and a heavy Metallica sound. There are, however, some exceptions so there are some clean and lighter gain tracks in there as well.
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I think both pickups will suit your guitar and the tone you're going for, but I dont have first hand experience with the HD to compare them. Why dont you ask Tim, and if you're in the states, ask Nick at the axe palace. They've played both holy diver and warpig and are very helpful.
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The lead tone on that video was fantastic and certainly came through OK (unless of course it's the SD 59 I'm listening to :lol:).
that's definitely the neck pickup
damn, I hate the '59
it was one of the main reasons I first tried BKP
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I hate to say this but if you are wanting a heavy metallica sound there are only two options for you
BKP miracle man is the closest youll get but isnt spot on
http://www.infocus.ho8.com/media/46-And%20Justice%20For%20Jason.mp3
and the other option without a doubt is the emg81/60 (which will nail it with the right amp)
Don't shy away from the miracle man as it is ALOT more versatile than people would have you believe
A lot of the versatility i found is in the end user and how well they know there amp & guitars limitations It even nails those metallica/megadeth style clean tones if you know how to EQ it
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Oh yeah also there was no after EQ done on that clip at all it is exactly as it was recorded
Ibanez TS9 boosting the crunch channel of my TSL60 with Eminence Man O War recorded with a SM57
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Sorry, I didn't make that clear. When I think of guitarists who have the tone I like, they invariably seem to be either players who use Gibson Les Pauls or PAF style pickups or both. Think for instance of the best elements of Slash, Gary Moore, John Sykes, Santana etc. Unfortunately, I really don't like playing Gibson guitars as I prefer neck-thru construction, 24 frets and locking trem and that does seriously limit my choice and gives me a guitar that is rather brighter and thinner in tone. In an ideal world I'd get a mahogany Soloist but I can't afford that. I appreciate I'll never get a Les Paul sound as it's not a Les Paul but if I can a pickup that has a beefier, more PAF type tone I will at least get part of the way there. The reference to bands like Metallica and Iron Maiden etc. was merely an indication of the gain levels I tend to use and not the core tone I'm after (though I do like Metallica's 'Whisky in the Jar' tone well enough). It's very hard to articulate exactly what I'm after and I'm not sure that I always fully understand the terms used. I assume I must like a 'compressed' sound because I like my JB a hell of a lot more when the MXR compressor has output and sensitivity maxed out and the attack virtually on zero. It's that kind of effect with the gain levels I mentioned but also smooth and organic like a PAF. I give up, I just can't effectively describe it, :lol:
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Have you gave any thought to the Crawler?
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Sorry, I didn't make that clear. When I think of guitarists who have the tone I like, they invariably seem to be either players who use Gibson Les Pauls or PAF style pickups or both. Think for instance of the best elements of Slash, Gary Moore, John Sykes, Santana etc. Unfortunately, I really don't like playing Gibson guitars as I prefer neck-thru construction, 24 frets and locking trem and that does seriously limit my choice and gives me a guitar that is rather brighter and thinner in tone. In an ideal world I'd get a mahogany Soloist but I can't afford that. I appreciate I'll never get a Les Paul sound as it's not a Les Paul but if I can a pickup that has a beefier, more PAF type tone I will at least get part of the way there. The reference to bands like Metallica and Iron Maiden etc. was merely an indication of the gain levels I tend to use and not the core tone I'm after (though I do like Metallica's 'Whisky in the Jar' tone well enough). It's very hard to articulate exactly what I'm after and I'm not sure that I always fully understand the terms used. I assume I must like a 'compressed' sound because I like my JB a hell of a lot more when the MXR compressor has output and sensitivity maxed out and the attack virtually on zero. It's that kind of effect with the gain levels I mentioned but also smooth and organic like a PAF. I give up, I just can't effectively describe it, :lol:
i understand exactly how you struggle i do it myself. Putting a sound into words is one of the hardest things possible.
As for mahogany superstrats with locking trems have you looked at the ibanez RGAs? theyre very nice and some of them arent ridiculously overpriced.
The only problem with them is that they dont tick your requirement of neck thru but the neck join does give just as much access.
I hope you find what you are looking for as its always a tough decision
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It's a hell of a lot easier offering advice to other people than it is deciding on your own that's for sure!
I'm not going to change my guitar as I've not had this one a year yet and I was trying to get away from the super thin necks that Ibanez guitars have anyway. As for the Crawler, I did look at that and ironically it was the pickup that first got me looking at a Nailbomb because I noticed on the forum that people kept saying that they were similar but one was Blues to Metal whereas the other was Metal to Blues. Half my problem is that I can't do anything but think about it until my old Ibanez is sold as that's funding the pickups. Once that's sold (eventually) the decision will be made very quickly one way or another.
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But do you find a single coil sized humbucker reacts in this way like a humbuker or like a single coil?
I don't have that much experience with them, but I think it very much depends on the model- and also the position. rails types, to my ears (and the ones I've tried) sorta sounded halfway between single coils and humbuckers, and in the neck position sounded closer to a humbucker (as that's a warmer pickup position). Something like dimarzio virtual vintages (stacked humbuckers) sound pretty close to single coils. I haven't tried any of the dimarzio rail pickups.
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Tough decision, indeed. I have the HD and its distortion character (or texture) is like the one of a JB but with more tone if that makes sense. Clearer and richer with fuller mids and low mids.
By VERY carefully listening to the clips of the site, youtube or any mp3s I found I can say that the tone I like the most is that of the Miracle Man followed by the C-Nailbomb. For Alnico pickups I'd go with the Nailbomb for sure even if the Diver is a very toneful pickup too. The Nailbomb has a classic voicing which is very close to the classic rock tones of the 70s we know.
If I was in your place I'd go with the Nailbomb just by the tone texture. I like it the most out of the 3.
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the Nailbomb is actually more of a mid 90's tone
I always think of Helmet and early Silverchair
Tim usually recommends it for Tool as well, but I like the Holy Diver better for that (at least for their recent stuff)
the thing about the Nailbomb is that it retains that PAF hollowness in the mids, kinda like the Riff Raff, but thicker, more compressed and not as bright (the Riff Raff is a quite "twangy" pickup)
it doesn't have the "air" of the Riff Raff on distorted chords, though
it's definitely more dense sounding, despite of the "hollowness" in the upper mids
the Nailbomb is completely different from the Diver's texture and voicing, although they have similar specs and look almost the same on the new EQ chart
it's much louder, edgier and less middy
didn't try the nailbomb and warpig in the same guitar, but I had the impression that the nailbomb was higher output
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Yeah that hollowness is what I'm talking about. It's cool if you ask me. I think Miracle Man has it too but in a more metallic manner and in low mids instead, making it sound deep and heavy.
I agree about the density of the Nailbomb too and the focus in mid-mids and upper-mids.