Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: add4 on January 28, 2011, 11:19:32 AM
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Hello everyone,
I play modern jazz and lately, i've been less happy with my sound.
I am playing an Ibanez AS-93 which is basically a cheap copy of a Gibson ES335. I changed the pickups to a pair of gibson classic 57 pickups, stock electronics, 500k pots.
Lately, i've wished my guitar sounded more acoustic, i suspect ibanez put a very larger wood piece in the middle of the body than in the real 335, and i think the guitar sounds almost like a solidbody. I am looking to change that.
I also feel that with these pickups, the guitar lacks some punch, and some highs and medium highs. i wish i could have that, while keeping the meaty medium bass of the classic 57. I also feel that the guitar lacks some dynamics and wonder if the classic 57 do not compress the sound a little.
The sound i would like should be acoustic when played clean, witha good equilibrium in bass, mediums and highs, and able to give a nice singing meaty distorded tone..
examples of clean tone i'd like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlj-HKwba7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzR1tAo-gRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzR1tAo-gRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZjmH8yyoWo
i'm not far from that with the ibanez, an empress para eq to boost the medium highs and highs, but i would like to have a 'hollower' sound
for the distortion tone, i am really into rosenwinkel's tone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eup_mRDbs3s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1rIr8rpqP8
I have read that the humbucker size p90 would be a good chioce for giving that hollower sound. Is that true?
If it is, would the manhattan be able to provide this kind of modern distortion tone with a RAT, or would the missisispi queen be better for that?
i am afraid of having too mush high and not enough roundness on the missisipi queen, but i feel that the manhattans could lack the punch i'm after.
so the questions are :
humbucker or p90? - to get the hollow sound, and more highs/high-mids
if p90 or humbuckers
which one and why to get the clean round, meaty, with highs and equilibrium, and punch
which one to get the distortion i'm after
Thanks in advance for your help
best
arnaud
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I think what we hear here is a warm and mellow, low output humbucker.
A P90 would be more versitile IMO. For those jazz tones you can back up the tone bit for that fat warmth. P90's will also give you blues, rock, punk and rockabilly. All from the same guitar.
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And what about the 'hollowness' ? would a p90 make it sound a little more acoustic like?
best
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I think so, but ask forummember Fourth Feline, he's experienced with the Manhattan.
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I think so, but ask forummember Fourth Feline, he's experienced with the Manhattan.
Cheers !
For the clean tone(s) only, I would have said Manhattans all the way - but to bridge both the clean and driven tones - as heard in the videos, AII Stormy Mondays.
Roll the tone controls down a touch with the Stormies to match the clean tones. ( even the sweet S.M.s are brighter than the warm / rich yet detailed Manhattans ) .
I have not used my Manhattans for driven tones, as I bought them for my 'Number 1' Archtop , but have used SMs in a solid body for both tones, and currently use AII S.Ms. in an Ibanez AF75 - where they deliver clean tones very nicely.
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I thought you would come up with the SM for the bridge. :)
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I thought you would come up with the SM for the bridge. :)
An interesting idea, but if anything - I usually think of the S.M for the neck - and something a bit 'naughty' for the bridge. Mostly because of the S.M.s not really having the strong / assertive character one would associate with the bridge position. In Jazz / crossover work, I might think Manhattan neck, AII S.M. bridge - but I am predudiced by liking the Manhattan set , and being a player that tends to like a blend of matched pickups, instead of two overtly seperate characters within the set.
However , Upon re-reading the last sentence in Arnoud's original post :
"Which one and why to get the clean round, meaty, with highs and equilibrium, and punch ; which one to get the distortion i'm after ? "
Makes me lean heavily toward the M.Qs . They can be round and clean enough to give lovely glassy cleans, but certainly assertive enough to be very articulate and punchy , to take control of the Amplifier. The other plus for the M.Q as a matched set , being that milder AIV Neck matched with the Hotter wound and AV magnet bridge within the same pair.
In answering these questions , have to remember that to me Jazz is largely chord melody work with occasional 'lines' - as opposed to 'hot' Jazzy playing.
Manhattans for a pickup that makes the guitar sound like a bigger version of itself ; S.M.s for playing sweetly, but being able to crossover into driven tones - and M.Qs to dominate the amp, sound punchy - and yet ( with pickup height tweaking ) cover the bases from 'Plummy' Jazz tones, through to 50's R'n'B and Rockabilly tones.
Again, the Mules are a great 'all rounder' if you want a humbucker - and would of course be 'all things to all people ' within reason.
I would even suggest a set of Mules, but ask Tim to put an Alnico III magnet and appropriate adjustments to the winding in the neck position. For sweet and open sounds, I find the AIII magnet an absolute gem . :)
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Wow ..
thanks everyone for the answers and food for thought.
one friend has a godin semi acoustic with a P90 on the bridge and i really like the dynamic and clarity of these, that's why i was thinking P90.
I was mainly trying to decide between the MQ and manhattan, but prefered to let the humbucker option open since these sound come from a humbucker after all.
In fact, with the classic 57 AND the equalizer adding highs and medium/highs, my guitar sound almost as i want it to sound, except for the 'hollowness' so i think that would be the biggest factor, since the rest can be corrected with a good EQ.
Thanks again, if you have further input i'd be curious to read it.
At the moment, i'm leaning towards the MQ for the p90 thing, and Fourth Feline's comments about them..
i just hope it would be possible to find also real muffled out sounds a la
adam rogers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b0Kg6w95oc&feature=related
.
Another example of the tone i'd like to have 90% of the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMH3dcLUIp8&feature=related
thanks
i know that's a lot to ask for 1 set of pickups... but these are Bare knuckles, right ? :)
Best
arnaud
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Wow ..
thanks everyone for the answers and food for thought.
one friend has a godin semi acoustic with a P90 on the bridge and i really like the dynamic and clarity of these, that's why i was thinking P90.
I was mainly trying to decide between the MQ and manhattan, but prefered to let the humbucker option open since these sound come from a humbucker after all.
In fact, with the classic 57 AND the equalizer adding highs and medium/highs, my guitar sound almost as i want it to sound, except for the 'hollowness' so i think that would be the biggest factor, since the rest can be corrected with a good EQ.
Thanks again, if you have further input i'd be curious to read it.
At the moment, i'm leaning towards the MQ for the p90 thing, and Fourth Feline's comments about them..
i just hope it would be possible to find also real muffled out sounds a la
adam rogers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b0Kg6w95oc&feature=related
.
Another example of the tone i'd like to have 90% of the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMH3dcLUIp8&feature=related
thanks
i know that's a lot to ask for 1 set of pickups... but these are Bare knuckles, right ? :)
Best
arnaud
The 'Muffled' tones would be easy with any of the pickups we are discussing, as with the B.K.P you get a much more open ( i.e less compressed ) sound, which gives you a great starting point of clarity to work back from.
As for the tone you want " 90% of the time " - I am hearing M.Qs. Let me explain why :
At the 29 second mark of the second Video, there is a sustained note - and that note ( along with the preceding tones ) is actually very middy compared to the 'open' characteristics of S.Ms. There is very little 'space' around the note(s) - more a focused sound. Manhattans would be that warm, BUT I use them because I hear a lot of space ( I call it 'Air' ) between the individual notes. I once said on the forum , that the M.Qs gave me the leading edge of the note(s) but within that I had a variety of tonalities to chose from ; whereas the Manhattan gave me the spaces between the notes, the nuances - very 'ambient' sounding .
I just hear more mids / focus and much less 'hollow' in the sounds presented , than the "hollow" you seem to associate with getting that same sound.
I also prefer M.Qs over Mules for this thread, because of that distinctive articulation / push on the leading edge of each note that you get in a P90. M.Qs are also a very warm sounding P90. Such qualities are not lacking in a 'Vintage style' B.K.P humbucker - but for Jazz - and those lovely tones we hear in the video with the flexibility to go even further than your origins needs - I hear the M.Qs as they where in my 335 copy.
With my Manhattans in a 175 copy , Stormys in an Ibanez AF75 - and Mules in my Les Paul Standard, I can honestly say that my ' resting' set of M.Qs would go straight ( back ) into a 335 I was going to keep. Just to qualify that statement further , I used to have the M.Qs in a Tanglewood 335 copy, but now use it 'stock' as I lend it out and use it as my casual practice guitar.
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I thought you would come up with the SM for the bridge. :)
An interesting idea, but if anything - I usually think of the S.M for the neck - and something a bit 'naughty' for the bridge. Mostly because of the S.M.s not really having the strong / assertive character one would associate with the bridge position. In Jazz / crossover work, I might think Manhattan neck, AII S.M. bridge - but I am predudiced by liking the Manhattan set , and being a player that tends to like a blend of matched pickups, instead of two overtly seperate characters within the set.
I understand your point. The MQ has more hair then the SM in the bridge, but I saw on youtube a Les Paul-player who had great big crunchy tones with the SM in the bridge. Slash uses Alnico II too.
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I thought you would come up with the SM for the bridge. :)
An interesting idea, but if anything - I usually think of the S.M for the neck - and something a bit 'naughty' for the bridge. Mostly because of the S.M.s not really having the strong / assertive character one would associate with the bridge position. In Jazz / crossover work, I might think Manhattan neck, AII S.M. bridge - but I am predudiced by liking the Manhattan set , and being a player that tends to like a blend of matched pickups, instead of two overtly seperate characters within the set.
I understand your point. The MQ has more hair then the SM in the bridge, but I saw on youtube a Les Paul-player who had great big crunchy tones with the SM in the bridge. Slash uses Alnico II too.
Yes, those are good points and an interesting expansion of the possibilities . When I think back sometime , I used to have the AII S.M.s in my Les Paul Standard - where the character of them was much brighter and more concise, than in my 335 copy. Indeed, in my Ibanez AF75 fully Hollow archtop, AII S.M.s sound much more 'crystaline' than Manhattans in a guitar of similar build.
In my 335 copy, the AII Stormies got rounded out - I can perhaps think this is becase the Les Paul had a Maple cap - and provided a stiffer body on which to build a firmer foundation for tonal projection e.t.c. In my AF75, it is a again a crisper guitar un-plugged than my Vintage ES-175 copy, and of course the S.M.s succeed in conveying the intrinsic difference(s) in character between different guitars. With those things borne in mind, I can imagine that a Les Paul / AII Stormy Combination , could indeed sound brighter / crunchier in the bridge, than in certain other 'Donor ' guitars.
My concerns remain, that the relatively brighter and crunchier sound I heard when using in the Les Paul / AII Stormy combination was not to be confused with "Punch" and that fatter , Middy, hot leading edge on the notes I hear in the last video sample we saw and heard. I am far from being knowledgable about Slash's tone in depth, but as a casual listener, I am hearing a creamy somewhat rounded tone, even in the riffs - whereas in the later You Tube sample , which the O.P. states is desirable " 90% of the time" I hear a very different beast - and that is a more assertive and pushy leading edge on the note, which 'blooms' out quickly into a fatter hotter trail off. These later qualities are what I hear in M.Qs especially in a 335 type guitar, where the combination of part hollow ( but with a heavier soundblock down the centre ) construction - can dissipate focus from the notes somewhat, and instead emphasise the vocal qualities of the pickups and playing.
To re-iterate , the relatively brighter 'crunch' of a S.M. - is a by-product of it's open arena with a touch more top end character, whereas the concept of 'punch' and fatness is ( to my ears ) more of a P90 characteristic ; especially the M.Q. - which is fatter and sweeter sounding than other P90 tones I have heard.
Ultimately of course it's going to be down to acheiving 'Alchemy' with your specific guitar and rig ; but to observe that ( to my ears ) the M.Q has a wider tonal pallette to 'tweak' from - AND if in doubt, it will ( relative to a low output humbucker ) tend to give you a surfeit of warm, clean power and sonic voices to experiment with. Punch, warm , articulate and clean are the very essence of what I think of in a M.Q - and what I would personally use in a guitar I wanted those specific tones from.
I had in fact put my M.Qs in the Ibanez AF75 for an experiment, but it was giving me 'Hot Jazz lead' instead of ambient sounding chord melody fragments and fine grain. Unfortunately ( for the purposes this discussion ) I had not recorded soundclips with the M.Qs in either guitar.
The following are pictures of the 'Mighty M.Q.s' in the two guitars. I have added my own 'Winner' for chord melody and Jazz at the end, Manhattans in a ( modded) Vintage VSA575. Jazz all the way with that one !
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u135/Fourth_Feline/ee2b9a9b.jpg)
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u135/Fourth_Feline/MississippiQueensfitted.jpg)
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u135/Fourth_Feline/634f34ba.jpg)
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Thx for the complete answer, I don't have that much experience with hollowbodies, besides the Yamaha SA503 I sold last year (see picture). But I do like P90's and I guess you're right the MQ's'have more sparkle and are versatile in hollowbodies. BTW. that Vintage looks very nice.
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Thx for the complete answer, I don't have that much experience with hollowbodies, besides the Yamaha SA503 I sold last year (see picture). But I do like P90's and I guess you're right the MQ's'have more sparkle and are versatile in hollowbodies. BTW. that Vintage looks very nice.
Cheers ! :)
That also gives me chance to re-iterate , that although I cite the M.Q as a strong contender for Arnaud's percieved needs / in this sonic context ( i.e a hotter more focused Jazz, with 10% 'driven' usage ) - My own absolute favourite B.K.P. for clean Jazz , is of course the Manhattan. The (modded ) Vintage is my 'Number 1' guitar - largely due to the fact that it carries my Manhattans.
I just suspect that Arnaud's required tone / playing requires something that sounds a bit more exciting than I use. I tend to go from clean, mellow and smooth - all the way through to clean, mellow and smooth.
"Another Manhattan Sir ? ". 8)
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First of all, thanks to you all for taking time to read this thread, listening to the video examples, and answering.
Lots of very interesting advices in what has been said. Reading this, i am thinking of going for the MQ. I still have one questions about dynamics though. How does the dynamic of a P90 compares to the dynamic of a humbucker? Is it more responsive to touch? That is what i would tend to think without trying .. What are your ideas about that?
A few thoughts about what i have read in your replies:
- i think 'focused' is a good way of describing the tone i'm after. in fact i like to hear each note separately, very clearly, and the 'core' of the sound should be very strong and tight, while the rest of the sound should be soft and full of resonances.. i don't know if that's clear, i have a very clear example of this sound in mind as i'm writing it
- I still would be curious to hear the manhattan in a low distortion setting... i like a natural small emphasis on the mediums as i play.
I think i will go for the MQ, try them in the ibanez, and put the classic 57 in the warmoth tele i'm planning to do later this year. and maybe switch them to try.
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I still have one question about dynamics though ; how does the dynamic of a P90 compare to the dynamic of a humbucker? Is it more responsive to touch? That is what i would tend to think without trying .. What are your ideas about that?
I think i will go for the MQ, try them in the ibanez, and put the classic 57 in the warmoth tele i'm planning to do later this year. and maybe switch them to try.
The whole question of what constitute "Dynamics " is a hard one to answer objectively. I do however appreciate how crucial that issue is to someone who enjoys playing this particular style of music - and of course the same might well apply to the affectionados of Peter Green / Larry Carlton / B.B.King type Blues playing.
To attempt any answer on this potentially complex topic , I think it best to focus on what it means for YOU choosing pickups for a 335, with 90% clean and 10 % 'driven' requirements. Permit me to make my reply a series of statements about my own observations on 'Dynamics' in my own playing and how B.K.P pickup usage fits into that :
1) Any of the pickups you are pondering will give great seperation between notes - and permit picking action to dictate subtle changes in volume, note -to-note. A comment that has often come up about certain lower output B.K.P - has been that a 'new' user might initially think them less powerful than a rather compressed sounding 'stock' pickup. With Vintage B.K.P .you have to WORK the volume out of them with picking pressure - that is to say -that they will scream if you attack the strings, but sing if you dont. I have read comments on here, that fellow band members have percieved a relatively low output B.K.P as being louder than stock pickups, just because they heard a Dynamic difference between the note volumes - and sense of space between them.
2) I once left some sound clips in the 'Player's' section on this forum, to compare AII Stormies, AIV stormies ( both in the AF75 ) - and a few more ( recorded rather Lo-Fi ) to show the Manhattans in the VS575.
In this context, AS A SOLO PLAYER - dynamics are /where for me, defined as me being able to ( hopefully ) create suspense and emotional content, by revealing the scr@pe of string against fret during vibrato - and string noise/ harmonics, when moving along the strings - or punctuating an idea. Had I been back in a six piece Soul / R'n'Roll band, these nuances would have been lost in the bigger mix.
3) By way of contrast, Had I owned the M.Qs for that same project, the audience would have been given a clear contrast between loud and soft, as the M.Qs would have been clean and assertive enough to establish a clear sonic presence AND therefore would have cut through the mix, without being coarse.
4) The Stormy Mondays would probably have sounded sweet for a Blues solo, ( where people where listening closely ) but with the whole band going full tilt , the audience would probably have heard the general sweetness and 'retro' qualities, but would have been less able to hear them stand out - compared to the M.Qs.
5) All of the above is specualtion on my part, as my B.K.P. era came ( sadly ) after the Band / gigging years.
The Manhattans ( I feel ) need listening closely to, in order to fully appreciate what little gems they are - Stormy Mondays are probably the next step of mellow - but - adaptable , but If I went out there again as a Band Player, the increased 'poke' of either my Mules in the Les paul ( for Rockier Blues ) - or M.Qs for a wider Jazz / Soul / Blues R'n'B remit , where clean, sweet , dynamic but 'take no prisoners' clean would be the order of the day.
Conclusion :
If " Dynamic" for you means subtleties apparent in Solo, Duo, Trio playing e.t.c ( i.e. fret noise during vibrato, fine detail between the notes then Stormies or Manhattans are probably a good bet .
If "Dynamic" means predominantly Loud-to- soft , (depending on pick attack ) - and even the audience at the back can tell the difference, the M.Qs might be the appropriate tool.
Both of the above statements will change according to your own rig / guitar / room conditions of course, BUT I PERSONALLY have become a P90 fan , as that pickup family seem to give me many variations on the theme of clean articulation ; be it the subtle/ open / Jazz focus one gets from the AIII magnet in Manhattans, or the 'Firm' AIV M.Q. neck - through to the 'Sizzlin' AV magneted M.Q. bridge.
" One man's floor is another man's ceiling " ... :)
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Thanks again everyone for your very interesting point of view ..
A few reactions about that :
- This might sound stupid, but how about a manhattan in neck for the subtle playing and warmth and a MQ in bridge to be able to have a little more hot sound there?
- Another stupid question .. especially on the BK forum .. but i have to ask. is there a real sonic enhancement over the gibson pickups .. i am aware that gibsons are not hand wounded, etc etc. but they are still supposed to be good pickups .. is it a really big upgrade to move from them to BK?
- i listened to the official sound clips again and each time i do, i prefer the type of sound on the manhattan sound clips. the little oomph in the medium is really attractive to me ..
i guess i'll have to decide one day.. :p
- i have read that tim is usually a very good advisor, do you know how it is possible to contact him to have his view on the problem too ?
Now a few practical questions about the shop page :
- How can i choose the options for the pickups on the store? i see 2 conductors and 2 conductors + screen .. i have read the explanations on the FAQ, but i still have no idea what it means :p. what should i choose to have the classic gibson wiring?
- I guess i have to choose the same polarity if i don't want to have a 'normal' sound when using both pickups, right?
- For a guitar like this ES335 copy , should i choose the long or short leg?
Surprisingly enough, i understand the last question about the cover, and i think i'll be able to choose by myself :p
Thanks everyone for your help
Best
arnaud
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Arnaud, there are nearly no stupid questions, just stupid answers.
- The MQ in the bridge and Manhattan in the neck seems pairing best of worlds. Don't know what this means for the in betweenposition. But I'll reckon this could be a great rhythmsound.
- BKP's are higher rated than Gibson pu's, since there not massproduced, but painstakingly handmade with love for guitars. I think BKP's are superior in balance, stringseparation, dynamics. Therefore worth the investment.
- You can mail Tim via the website. The BKP-team will answer any of your questions and help you to order (short/long legs etc).