Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: andrew11 on February 25, 2011, 08:56:36 PM
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As a metal player and a fan of bands like whitechapel and suicide silence 7 string guitars have always interested me. But not really knowing how they really work has keep me away. Now that i am looking to buy another guitar im considering trying one. I now play just standard tuning six string guitar, bands like Metallica and Pantera. As i was looking into the 7 I noticed 7 tuning is standard tuning with a low B. So you could still play standard tuned stuff. Do guys play 7 strings just to have that low B to chug on (i dout it but had to ask) or is there more to this ie different chords, scales that come with a 7 string?
Thanks
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watch videos of Dave Weiner on youtube and you'll get a good idea of what's possible with it. If you buy one with the intent of just chugging on it, don't bother just buy heavier strings. But if you approach it as a way of helping with ideas or chord progressions then you'll really benefit from it.
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Here's a good video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi2Fp_5hIUQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi2Fp_5hIUQ)
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Thanks for the video. I agree its not just for chugging, I was just wondering why they seem to be used my alot of metal bands? Are some bands using it as a alternative to to heavy strings?
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I think it's just because you can make riffs sound heavier quite easily on a 7 string. I think those kind of bands miss the point though. Animals As Leaders use the 7 string and 8 string to its fullest within a metal type setting.
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Thats what I dont understand though. I can make my riffs sound heavier if I put on 12-60s and tune down to B on a 6 string. Theres got to be more to it? Any 7 string players out there?
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Yes. More notes to play in scale runs are rather nice. That extra string opens up a plethora of new scale and chord possibilities. That's basically it, really.
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I find a seven is a good writing tool (I have an RG7321), i tend to automatically bounce more groove laden riffs off of the B string, which i never would have written on a 6, but when i play them on a 6 they still sound good.
also the wider neck is great if you have large hands, stops me wrapping my thumb round the neck too much.
also i can still play E standard stuff on it, and as it's my only guitar atm, thats pretty essential.
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Long post coming up (sorry :))
I got a 7-string soon after Ibanez first started making them - a nearly new white UV777 for an absolute bargain (the guy who bought it new obviously struggled with it & PX'd it within a week or so).
My thinking was that the 7-string would allow me, with the aid of a capo, to play along with the CDs I was enjoying in whatever key they'd tuned their guitars to. Of course, that's a lot harder than it sounds, so I soon abandonned the idea. But even playing it for my own stuff, I found it really limiting (which sounds counter-intuitive) - it was far too tempting to just grind away on the low B. Also, I found it hard to solo with: when playing a 6 string in E (or whatever you tune it to), I would automatically gravitate to the 12th fret of the top string to start a solo, but on a 7 that's 5 steps too high. If you go 12th fret on the B string, the string below is a different interval. But my hand didn't stretch as well if I started at the 7th fret.
Instead of actually thinking through these limitations (which were really limitations of my playing & theory knowledge rather than the guitar), I just stopped playing it & sold it after a year or so.
Fast forward 20 years, during which time I've tuned to Eb, D, C#, C, B, Bb, flirted with drop-C#, drop-Bb & come full circle back to Eb on my 6-strings :roll:
A friend had a battered old 7 for sale, I borrowed it, REALLY liked it & found myself on an immediate creative splurge. My theory knowledge must be a lot better because it felt like I was using the full range of it rather than just transposing 6-string riffs down to the bottom strings.
I didn't buy that 7, but instead got a newer RG1527 from someone on this forum. It's been a game changer for me: not only do I play it so much that I find it hard to adjust back to a 6 :lol: but Kieran's outstanding setup (D'Addario 10-59, tuned to std E-B) & the heavier picks I started to use made me realise what an imprecise loose setup I was playing on everything else. I'm currently testing various gauges so I can get my 6s in Eb & C# to feel as precise & solid as the 7s do.
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I'd rather have a baritone.
Same key, less complicated, better string tension.
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^my (and most) 7 string has a 27" scale, so string tension is not an issue. Yes, it gives you extended chord and scale shapes to play with, but as Man on Edge said, the big advantage is the flexibility, you get the low string grind, but the upper end leads are still there for you.
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The biggest challenge with finding a good 7 string is one where the low B doesnt dominate more than it should , or give resonance and overtones that muddy up the other 6 strings
Ideally the 6 strings should sound just like they would on any other 6 string but you have the low B string when you want it along with the extra 5 notes and extended chord voicings
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The key to keeping the Low B clear and not overbearing is to have the right string gauge. For example I set my 7 string with regular 9 - 46's but for the Low B I use a .60. Reason being that the 46 is 17 pounds of tension so you have to match that or have a bit more. So the 60 also has 17 pounds of tension which works out very well.
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It's one better, innit?
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It's been a game changer for me: not only do I play it so much that I find it hard to adjust back to a 6 :lol: but Kieran's outstanding setup (D'Addario 10-59, tuned to std E-B) & the heavier picks I started to use made me realise what an imprecise loose setup I was playing on everything else. I'm currently testing various gauges so I can get my 6s in Eb & C# to feel as precise & solid as the 7s do.
I glad to here you still loving it George - was the setup that good? I really struggled to get the playability close to were I wanted it when I first bought it and I just couldn't get on with the trem on it.
Being more of a riff based/rhythm player I prefer my down-tuned 6's to 7's but it may also have something to do with my small sausage hands too 8)
But it is nice to have something different in the arsenal.
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It's one better, innit?
Sometimes less is more.
3 strings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related)
1 string: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU)
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Seasick Steve. man, he's a good fella... this attention he gets from a wider cross section of those interested in music rather than just blues guys or whatever is a bit weird for me. I mean, his background is as interesting as his music, but surely there are so many good slide players out there past & present. It's as thought to some people that kind of music just passed them by and now Seasick Steve is IT. Nothing to hold against him though. I just wish I could see more slide players on tele.
ha! is seasick steve responsible for a diddley bo resurgence? electric diddley bo at that!
but also...
3 string guitar, 2 string bass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvcohzJvviQ
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Too much can be done on six for me to bother
I had a 7 for a few years to test this.
And I detune my 6s to drop B.
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was the setup that good? I really struggled to get the playability close to were I wanted it when I first bought it and I just couldn't get on with the trem on it.
Well, I've not adjusted it one bit since I got it & spent hours trying to get the new one I bought to feel the same (no way I could cope with just one 7-strung! :lol:)
I think it's the extra string tension from the 10-46 strings being tuned to E as opposed to Eb + the firmer pick (I was using .73 gauge before, moved to 1mm to handle the low B). It's so much tighter & easier to play precisely. In fact, I find it hard to believe I coped with such soft picks for the last 25 years! :)
I don't use the trem much, suppose it I was getting Feline to build a 7 for me I'd go for tunomatic, so the trem arm thing doesn't bother me. It's a solid feeling bridge though, doesn't wobble much...
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I like the idea of Matt Pike's 9 string. but that is a different kettle of strings.
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double post or I hit enter before I typed or something :lol:
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It's one better, innit?
Sometimes less is more.
3 strings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related)
1 string: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU)
In the Gilmour sense sure. But mostly less is just less and more is more. I'm not really feeling those examples, though :D
Tuning down a 6 is fine as long as you don't need to keep your range.
But I'm biased. I've been exclusively playing 7's for 7months now. I bought MDV's old RG7321 on a whim to see how I got on with it and it changed everything for me and I'm kicking myself for not trying one 10 years ago. I bought an RG1527 6months ago to tide me over while my Daemoness is being built. I'm still really enjoying that guitar but it desperately needs BKPS - the stock pups are dire.
I quite fancy trying an 8 string now too.
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i always tuned my guitars in E, but more or less a year ago i started writing songs in B as well as in E, so i bought a 7 stringer to have that extra range rehearsing with my band without the need to carry an extra guitar! :)
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It's one better, innit?
Sometimes less is more.
3 strings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RlUwS1LKRs&feature=related)
1 string: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98WwTgCSKU)
In the Gilmour sense sure. But mostly less is just less and more is more. I'm not really feeling those examples, though :D
Tuning down a 6 is fine as long as you don't need to keep your range.
But I'm biased. I've been exclusively playing 7's for 7months now. I bought MDV's old RG7321 on a whim to see how I got on with it and it changed everything for me and I'm kicking myself for not trying one 10 years ago. I bought an RG1527 6months ago to tide me over while my Daemoness is being built. I'm still really enjoying that guitar but it desperately needs BKPS - the stock pups are dire.
I quite fancy trying an 8 string now too.
I still have the stock pickups
I sold you it with swineshead venoms (which I rather liked :lol:)
If you dont like those, you would LOATHE the stock pickups.
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Yea, I know. I mean my rg1527 still has the stock pickups :)
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Ah, riiiight!
Sorry, skipped over a bit fast!
If they're anything like the infinites (or if they are infinities) then, yes, among the worst pickups I've ever heard.
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I down tune my six to drop A, and I barely ever use the top three strings.
Actually, that's not quite true, I use them on the most recent track we're working on, and a couple before that.
But then I am an uncultured monkey who butchers his 14-70 strings with a 2.5mm pick (but only because the 3mm pick wasn't hard wearing enough). Rawr!
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Some advantages are:
-you get the extra string
-more tuning options
-more finger position options
-greater range
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I like the idea of Matt Pike's 9 string. but that is a different kettle of strings.
yeah that shite rules, the f*(king champs were the first band i saw rocking 9 strings like that, just added the extra awesomeness to their harmonies. but matt pike does it well with the 9 string just making his crazy leads sound even cooler.
they played in NZ last week opening for the melvins and were one of the best bands ive ever seen at a bar show
not sure if you guys have heard of the earthquake here but they were in christchurch when it hit, 20 minutes earlier and both bands couldve been seriously $%&#ed up
but anyway, never been into 7's, used to tune down to b on a 6, never required the low notes along with the high notes at the same time. tried some mates ibanez 7 strings, and with the wizard neck its just way to over the top to try and get your hand around and play comfortably across the whole range
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The thing that interests me about a 7 string is the extra string and being able to play in B and have that full downtuned crunch that u can only get from the thicker strings and still have the standard 6 string tuning. Ive been playing for only 3 years so I've by no means mastered a 6 string so the extra chords a scales will do me no good now but there's always time to learn. Right now I have 2 six strings one tuned standard and other to B. Not because I need it I just enjoy riff along in B, sounds heavier and fuller. So the way I look at it a 7 will give me two guitars in one. Does this seem correct to you guys? Also how much do the scales and chords change with a 7?
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There's obviously a difference in the chording, as a standard tuned 7 is a concert 6 with added bass string. To keep the chording positions the same but on the low B you can tune B - B and add the high E. BEADGbe vs BEADF#be.
Keeping the 7 in standard + low B allows you to play anything that a 6 does without having to change any finger positions on the treble strings.
I also have a guitar tuned to B Standard but occasionally tune the 5th string to up 1/2 step to BEADGe because I'm used to playing that with a 7 and I don't have to think about changing finger positions. As a number of songs that I play with my current band were originally written on 6 strings, using the concert tuning + low B tuning is a no brainer.
I've also got a cheap 8 string that's interesting. I notice the range available in one position (3.5 - 4 octaves) much more then when using a 7. It takes a lot to get your head around, and I'm not there yet!
As a note my #1 7 string guitar has Alnico Warpigs, and I use a 60 gauge low B. As I have a tonally tight guitar and tight amp, this just about works but I'd definitely go for a lower gain - and/or ceramic - solution if I wanted ultimate clarity. I don't, I like a bit of girth and dirt.
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The thing that interests me about a 7 string is the extra string and being able to play in B and have that full downtuned crunch that u can only get from the thicker strings and still have the standard 6 string tuning. Ive been playing for only 3 years so I've by no means mastered a 6 string so the extra chords a scales will do me no good now but there's always time to learn. Right now I have 2 six strings one tuned standard and other to B. Not because I need it I just enjoy riff along in B, sounds heavier and fuller. So the way I look at it a 7 will give me two guitars in one. Does this seem correct to you guys? Also how much do the scales and chords change with a 7?
THis is why Steve Vai went for the 7-string in the first play - to add a low B string to the rhythm playing.
Yes, you can do that, and still play in standard tuning with the 6 "normal" strings, if that is what you want to do.
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HairyChris,
First of all thanks for the great post. Now let me see if I understand u correctly, using standard tuning with the low B (standard 7string tuning) its not that i have different chords, but just more ways to use them because i have really 2 different tunings on 1 guitar? As for pickups I'm debating between EMG 81-7 B, 707 N or BKP warpig set (ceramic bridge). EMGs are great for metal (which I play) and will stay nice and tight on the low B. But I have a warpig set (ceramic bridge) in my 6 string Jackson and they are by far the greatest pickups I've ever used, the bass response is so huge and powerful I'm afraid any other pickup I use just won't satisfy. But its nice to have some different flavors. So don't know yet.
Alex,
I'm glad to hear that about Vai, I guess i do make sense.
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Yes, as HairyChris says, the "challenge" (or rather the thing you have to get used to) if you are a predominantly rhythm player who thinks from the bottom string up, is the different interval from the 4th from bottom to 5th from bottom string: it's 5 half steps instead of 4 (& of course the 5th-6th from bottom which is 4 half steps instead of 5).
In other words, if you played the E major chord shape on the bottom 6 strings of a 7, it won't be a B major, it will be a minor major 9 or a major 7 #5 chord, depending on whether you also sound the top E string (can't find a 7-str chord finder anywhere to confirm).
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It's not exactly 2 tunings on 1 instrument, it's just 2 of the tunings that are available.
http://guitar.to/folder/guitar7.html
Note the difference between following tunings:
BEADGBE (Concert with low B)
and
BEADF#BE (B Standard with high E)
8)
Good examples are Bmaj and Dmaj at 0 fret (for 6 strings think Emaj and Gmaj chords from concert tuning = Bmaj and Dmaj on a B standard tuning). Note what happens with 5th string.
As for pickups, well, you know what will be suggested here. Ceramic Pig bridge will be insane, but tighter Ceramic (Painkiller, Aftermath, Miracle Man) or lower power Alnico would work. MM on a B standard tuned guitar is intense, although cleans are not ideal!
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There's no need to make it complicated, it's just an extra string.
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There's no need to make it complicated, it's just an extra string.
Well yeah, that. :lol: :lol:
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Thanks everyone for all the help. After reading all your replies I'm going to try a 7 string, I really think it will fit my type of playing. HairyChris, thanks so much for that link I made sure I bookmarked it thats going to come in handy. I also found a page with all the 7 string scales. Now the question is which 7 string? anybody have any recommendations?
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Depends on your budget really.
Schecter do nice 7 strings from £200 up to £700
Ibanez have the RG7321's at around £340
Jackson do a cool signature 7 string (Christian Wolbers) at £700. I had one and it's one of the nicest 7's around.
You could try Ebay and look for an old Ibanez RG7620 for around £400. I bought one recently with Duncan Blackouts and it's a solid guitar. The neck is very very similar to the old Ibanez Universe necks.
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Well my budget is up to $3000. Not to say I'm going to spend all of it. I've been looking at Guerilla guitars based out of Quebec. Was originally going to order a 6 string from them but now thinking of ordering a 7, there really strong in there 7 and 8 string guitars.
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Ah ok. Well Bernie Rico Jr makes very nice 7 strings. I hear nothing but good things about them.
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If I were you, I'd try to borrow a 7-string before I spent that kind of money - play one for a few weeks to see if it's really for you (as I posted earlier in this thread, I didn't get on with it first time around).
Or perhaps compromise & buy something half-decent like an Ibanez RG1527 (I have two of them & really like them - no problem playing them alongside my US Jacksons).
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If I were you, I'd try to borrow a 7-string before I spent that kind of money - play one for a few weeks to see if it's really for you (as I posted earlier in this thread, I didn't get on with it first time around).
Or perhaps compromise & buy something half-decent like an Ibanez RG1527 (I have two of them & really like them - no problem playing them alongside my US Jacksons).
+1
it would be pointless to buy a handmade custom to discover that you can perfectly live with a 6 string guitar...
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hey andrew11
i think you better be sure about ordering a 7. guerilla make neck thru's, which i'm not too hot on, even tho' i will have them make me a 7 at some point...also you'd be better to try a longer than 25.5" scale, it helps with the low B. something not mentioned in this thread, you might need to re-think your amp and speaker set up, as you'll need to move some air on the low end. to me, the shortcomings of 7 strings is in the player and the speaker technology. i've played lot's of 'guitar stars' guitars, and it never ceases to amaze me just how below average they tend to be. but then again, if they can play these planks and get out of them what they do... respect!
basically, be careful, spend your £ once and wisely. i have a bunch of schecter custom shop 7's to re-home because i have far too many. anyway, good luck
sam
07725634034
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Thanks guys, I think I'm going to rent a 7 for a month or 2 and see how I like it. Then I will be able to make a better decision on how much $ to spend. Those guerilla guitars are just so frickin cool though, guess I have to fight the temptation a little bit longer. Better that then spending $3k and regreting it. As far as the 27" scale that's a good point, I will have to test out some longer scale guitars. I do like heavy strings on my guitars so I might really enjoy a 27".
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If you're in the states then you definitely need to check out Agile for 7s. I've got a Septor 727 Pro and it's great. They're made in the same factory as Schecter and ESP, have really great features and quality for a great price.
http://www.rondomusic.com/7string.html
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Andrew11
really research your tastes, looks aren't everything. i don't like neck thru's, yet having met the guerilla guys at the NAMM show, and my mate being their U.S. distributor, i'll have 1 built when i clear out a dozen or more others i don't use... sounds flash, and it is obscene how many schecters i have, but i've been involved with the company since around '94 when i twisted Mike's arm to build me their 1st 7string. some of you guys were only born then, i'm guessing...
good luck
sam
07725634034
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I've always been attracted by the 7-strings, and it was just a matter of time before I had one. Do what I did:
- Score a decent one on eBay for cheap and see if you like it. Clear winners are the Japanese Ibanez 7620 (or the 7621 if you want a fixed bridge) or the Agile Interceptors/Septors (found at www.rondomusic.com). Necks very a lot from one manufacturer to another, but you'll get a glimpse of the advantages/options that the seven string may open to you.
- If you don't like it, sell it.
- If you like it, keep it as the mentioned guitars are cool for their price and you may use them for certain songs. in case you find yourself comfortable with 7 strings and feel that you want a better axe, you may sell them as well and aim for high end sevens.
- If that were the case, Carvin guitars has very interesting prices for custom guitars if you live in the US. RAN guitars is another cool option for europeans with good prices. Moving a step higher you can find Daemoness custom guitars in the UK, and bernie Rico Jr / KxK Custom guitars in the US.
I, personally haven't looked back since then. I own three nice sevenstring guitars and a Bernie Rico 7 on the way as well :)
Hope that helped!