Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: _tom_ on February 27, 2011, 04:52:45 PM
-
I ask as I've finally came out of the honeymoon period (lasted a year :P) and realised my SG sounds great unplugged and seems to sustain quite nicely for leads, but when plugged in, leads sound quite uninspired and weak - the notes don't really ring out or "sing" to use a cheesy internet term for it! I'm currently using a set of Pig 90/MQs but the issue was noticeable with the Gibson pickups as well. It just seems a bit dead when you plug it in which is strange considering it seems great unplugged.
Is it just because I'm expecting it to live up to the sustain of my Les Pauls, or would some hotter pickups (I'm tempted by Warpigs :twisted: ) give it some chunk and make the leads sound a bit stronger? I'll try to record a clip to show what I mean, though it's also a feel thing.
-
pickups can't improve sustain... they can just capture more or less vibrations, but if your guitar doesn't keep sustained notes there's no way you can do it with a pickup.
yours seems to be the opposite case, but i don't think a pig90 lacks sensitivity... in theory compressed pickups should sustain longer than dynamic ones.
-
it could easily depend on your amp or setting, i think... do you use a noise gate or such?
-
Nope it's the same setup as I'm using with my other guitars which seem fine. Notes just seem a bit muted or something on the SG :\
-
how close are the pickups to the strings? if they're too close you might be getting string pull, and i think that can adversely affect sustain...
-
pickups can't improve sustain... they can just capture more or less vibrations, but if your guitar doesn't keep sustained notes there's no way you can do it with a pickup.
yours seems to be the opposite case, but i don't think a pig90 lacks sensitivity... in theory compressed pickups should sustain longer than dynamic ones.
Correct!
For a change.
Not that youre correct for a change. Youre usually correct.
I just mean that practically everything in a signal chain is sold as giving loads of sustain. Bollocks. Barring feedback theres nothing at all that will make the strings vibrate longer. More gain and compression can give the illuision of it by making the tail end of a note comparatively louder, but it will not make it last longer.
Pickups, however, can reduce sustain by the magnetic fields choking the strings vibration, as dave rightly says. But that would be audible acoustically, too, if subtely. Try backing them off a bit, see if it makes a difference.
-
I was wondering if there was perhaps something in the signal chain making the sound die out quickly but I can't see anything as everything's the same other than the guitar. I rewired it with decent electronics to put the bkps in.
I'll try lowering the pickups. I can't remember how close to the strings they were in the guitar they were in beforehand.
-
Pickups, however, can reduce sustain by the magnetic fields choking the strings vibration, as dave rightly says. But that would be audible acoustically, too, if subtely. Try backing them off a bit, see if it makes a difference.
ah good point, i didn't think of that :lol:
-
Lowered the pickups, its helped a little. I am wondering whether I've got my Pig 90 wired up wrong though - the neck MQ seems to be gainier. This one has a tap so maybe I've got it wired up so the tap is on rather than the full signal. How should it be wired? I have the following wires :
- bare (going to ground)
- green (not sure where this is going at the minute!)
- red, which is the tap wire (taped off)
- white (going to lug 1 of bridge volume)
I think maybe the green needs something doing with it? Looks like I've just got it cut off at the minute, but I don't remember it being connected to anything in the guitar it was in before either :\
Still considering changing these pickups out for something else, as they sounded better in the Pearl as far as I remember. Either low output Riff Raffs or go full beast with Warpigs! Wondering whether the 'pigs would be good for an Every Time I Die kinda sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8jeAkK1jCI).. it's similar to what I go for but a bit more aggressive than I can get!
-
Isn't white the tap wire and red the live? I seem to remember that's how mine is.
-
On the bit where the DC resistance etc is written, it says "red = tap".
-
I guess mine was the prototype so it might not be the same as yours. Do you have a multimeter to check it?
-
They say that the EMGs help sustain. Never really noticed a big change, but they have a low magnetic field and a built-in preamp. I always felt they compress the dynamics anyway.
-
I emailed Tim, I do have it wired up correctly. I just can't understand why the Pig 90 seems to be pushing the amp less than the MQ when it's at least double the dc resistance :? It used to be the opposite in my Pearl, the Pig 90 had to be lowered loads to match the lower output of the MQ.. Can't help but feel something's wrong with the wiring but all my joints look clean enough and I checked it on two diagrams when I was putting it together.
-
I just can't understand why the Pig 90 seems to be pushing the amp less than the MQ when it's at least double the dc resistance :?
I'm not saying this explains the problem, but comparing the DC resistance is very misleading - the MQ has 42 gauge wire and the Pig 90 has 45 gauge. The thinner wire has much higher DC resistance.
-
Tom you may find that a lower powered pickup may allow the guitar to sing a bit more
You cant always tell from a chart which pickup will best suit a certain guitar
The MQ or a Blue Note/Nantucket may sound more awesome in the bridge than the PIG90
Sometimes I get a surprise - I try a few different pickups in the same guitar and it's not always the one I was expecting that wins for sounding best.
When I build or upgrade guitars I do everything I can to maximise tone, response and sustain
Even how tightly the fretwire fits in the slots can affect how the tone lasts and the response of the guitar
-
You may be onto something there Jonathan - the Gibson pickups were high-ish output as well.. maybe I could try a MQ bridge some time.
-
Tom you may find that a lower powered pickup may allow the guitar to sing a bit more
You cant always tell from a chart which pickup will best suit a certain guitar
This is a good point. One of the "singiest" guitars I've ever played was that Orville LP goldtop I had for a while. That (allegedly) had Gibson '57 Classics, which are pretty low output AII pickups. It wasn't the best sounding guitar, in fact it tended to sound a bit mushy with distortion, but it seemed to sustain forever.
(Of course, it might just be that I'm not used to LPs! :lol: )
-
You may be onto something there Jonathan - the Gibson pickups were high-ish output as well.. maybe I could try a MQ bridge some time.
you'll absolutely love it! it's awesome clean and overdriven, very singy and musical, and howls like a werewolf under high gain! :)
-
I just can't understand why the Pig 90 seems to be pushing the amp less than the MQ when it's at least double the dc resistance :?
I'm not saying this explains the problem, but comparing the DC resistance is very misleading - the MQ has 42 gauge wire and the Pig 90 has 45 gauge. The thinner wire has much higher DC resistance.
you're right, but there's no way a MQ can push a preamp harder than a Pig90... in terms of gain, not volume of course! my neck MQs are damn loud, by the way, i had to lower even the one i have in couple with a ceramic warpig to balance their volumes!
-
Yeah it's really strange. I'll have to do a quick clip later on to try and show what I mean. I dont think I'm imagining it anyway :lol:
-
Ok done a clip.. think it kind of gets the point across! http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15027660/P90s.mp3
Raising the Pig 90 doesn't really seem to help to even it out so I guess it's just not meant to be in this guitar..
-
Ok done a clip.. think it kind of gets the point across! http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15027660/P90s.mp3
Raising the Pig 90 doesn't really seem to help to even it out so I guess it's just not meant to be in this guitar..
i haven't yet listened to your clip, but i think it could be it... try putting it back in your pearl if you liked it there! :P
-
Yes it was great in the Pearl so I think I shall put it back there and until I can afford a matching MQ, stick the Gibson pickup back in the SG!
-
As for how pickups handle sustain, low output allow more natural sustain (string vibration) and high output (passives) create artificial sustain lengthening the audible string vibration. Actives do both at the same time... in the expense of tone maybe(?).
-
As for how pickups handle sustain, low output allow more natural sustain (string vibration) and high output (passives) create artificial sustain lengthening the audible string vibration. Actives do both at the same time... in the expense of tone maybe(?).
Can you explain the physics behind your statement please?
-
As for how pickups handle sustain, low output allow more natural sustain (string vibration) and high output (passives) create artificial sustain lengthening the audible string vibration. Actives do both at the same time... in the expense of tone maybe(?).
Can you explain the physics behind your statement please?
Low output pickups produce a weaker magnetic field that doesn't pull the strings as high output ones do so they let them vibrate more freely. However high output pickups have a higher "gain" so with less string vibration can produce a stronger signal and as the string vibration dies out they can still be heard.
Actives have a weak magnetic field which lets the strings vibrate more freely again but they use a preamp to amplify the weak signal of their weak magnetic field. They have high gain via transistors than the coil winding and a stronger magnet like passive high output pickups.
I personally prefer the passive high output pickups tone though. ;)
It seems that whenever transistors get in the way they leave their signature...:P
Edit: Also passive pickups are made only of conductors and magnets. Actives have semi-conductors (transistors) in their circuit too. Their tone has to do with that I guess. It may be something about the very heart of their construction (composition of the transistors - you know germanium, sillicon etc).
-
As for how pickups handle sustain, low output allow more natural sustain (string vibration) and high output (passives) create artificial sustain lengthening the audible string vibration. Actives do both at the same time... in the expense of tone maybe(?).
Can you explain the physics behind your statement please?
Low output pickups produce a weaker magnetic field that doesn't pull the strings as high output ones do so they let them vibrate more freely.
Low and high output pickups often have very similar, if not the same magnets in. The number of turns round the coil is the primary determinant in how hot the pickup is.
-
As for how pickups handle sustain, low output allow more natural sustain (string vibration) and high output (passives) create artificial sustain lengthening the audible string vibration. Actives do both at the same time... in the expense of tone maybe(?).
Can you explain the physics behind your statement please?
Low output pickups produce a weaker magnetic field that doesn't pull the strings as high output ones do so they let them vibrate more freely.
Low and high output pickups often have very similar, if not the same magnets in. The number of turns round the coil is the primary determinant in how hot the pickup is.
Yeah my post applies mostly to the case they use different magnets. ;) However coil winding affects the magnetic field too. The more winds the stronger the magnetic field the current (produced by the strings) will produce and so on. It's like a circle. They interact to each other.
-
No they dont.
Edit: to clarify: the coil doesnt increase the magnetic field strength unless a current is being driven through it by an additional PD.
Were this the case they would have a positve feedback loop between mag field strength and current and they would be a source of infinte energy.
Edit 2: PD, potential difference. An electromagnet, which a pickup isnt.
-
I was expecting you would think about that. But remember that to keep a vibration infinite you need a very specific and controlled force according to the vibration. Doing it randomly like in this case most likely will have the opposite effect.
Hey it's always current in a coil, it does affect the field and they interact to each other but randomly. ;)
also consider that there are losses that's the main reason of not having infinite sources of energy and not the fact that phenomena don't interact to each other. phew it's too late for that...
-
Snot random at all. Its faradays law, but for alternating current.
"EMF in a closed loop is proportional to rate of change of magnetic flux', or something, iirc. The change in flux is caused by the motion of a ferromagnetic object within the field lines (the string), and as the flux changes it induces a current in the coils. The coils, simply sitting there doing nothing, do not change the magnetic field and the change in the magnetic field is not caused in this case by the current in the coils, its caused by the motion in the string. The same reason that the current in the coils cant increase the fields strength (the current us generated by the changes in the field).
In the case where your driving current through a wire thats perpendicular to a magnetic field, the field will increase in strength. Thats not happening in a pickup. They arent electromagnets.
Conservation of energy is the main...no, only reason for not having infinite sources of energy. Not efficiency.
-
MDV in a physics debate. It's just like the old days. :wink:
-
I surely have no idea what you mean.
-
:lol:
-
I have no idea whats going on in this thread any more - the physics stuff means nothing to me :lol:
Just realised I could wire it up so I'm always using the tapped part of the Pig 90.. surely this way I would be able to tell whether the problem is having too much output on the pickup, saving me the hassle of buying a MQ to try out? :)
-
A pickup cannot by itself affect sustain in the way that it can make the string vibrate longer. What it can do is
- shift the frequency response of the instrument so that the perceived sustain is longer by subdueing frequencies which have a shorter natural sustain (i.e. highs) and accentuating frequencies that have a longer natural sustain (i.e. mids)
- by higher output drive the amp harder into overdrive, thus adding more of the perceived sustain
- by higher output and/or accentuating the right frequencies make it easier to obtain string feedback.
If a pickup is too close to the strings it will decrease natural sustain of the guitar by magnetic pull.
Cheers Stephan
-
A pickup cannot by itself affect sustain in the way that it can make the string vibrate longer. What it can do is
- shift the frequency response of the instrument so that the perceived sustain is longer by subdueing frequencies which have a shorter natural sustain (i.e. highs) and accentuating frequencies that have a longer natural sustain (i.e. mids)
- by higher output drive the amp harder into overdrive, thus adding more of the perceived sustain
- by higher output and/or accentuating the right frequencies make it easier to obtain string feedback.
If a pickup is too close to the strings it will decrease natural sustain of the guitar by magnetic pull.
Cheers Stephan
.