Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: PUMPINGDELUXE on January 07, 2006, 02:21:49 AM
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I'm tired of having to crank my amp up (marshall TSL602) just to get to the juicey rock tones. (god knows how you guys with 100 watts do it.lol)
I know there are things out there like the marshall power brake but im thinking of part exchanging the badboy for something a bit more "usable" im thinking a cordford harequin? (maybe not loud enough :( ), it needs to be loud enough to practice with a drummer but not wembley stadium loud :twisted:,
Does anybody know of any class a or a/b valve amps out there ?
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Lots of the guys on the forum have talked about attenuators. The THD Hotplate for example. Before you change amps, have you thought about getting one of those. There a quite a few threads about this but I am sure someone else will chip in. HJM is a bit of an authority by all accounts- he will set you right.
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Depending on how much headroom you need you can get away with only 15 watts, even when in a full band situation.
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Add to that you need to remember that the design of the amp and type of valves give the tone. A pair of EL84s will not have the same tone as 4 or even 2 EL34s. So your 15w combo will still be loud (I've measured a 7 watt amp giving 118dB through a 4x12!) but it will not respond the same as a 50 or 100w amp. Even 2w can be bloody loud!!
The difference in feel between wattages is more obvious than the loudness change. A 50w JCM800 sounds much softer in the bass than a 100w, the 1oow has more punch too.
Remember there's only a 3dB increase in output when you double the power (1dB is about the smallest volume change you can percieve without expecting the change). So there's 3dB between a 50w amp and a 100w, a speaker change can do the same, say going from a Greenback to a vintage 30 you can match the level of a 50w with V30 speakers and a 100w with Greenbacks! So try different speakers/fewerspeakers as well as attenuators - might be enough.
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Just to agree with Hayden, I have a Silver Jubilee and the power switch really doesn't change the volume much, it just softens the amp. If you want a low power amp with the same sounds you will either need to spend a lot and get the Fargen Mini-Plex (2 EL34 but just 10 watts output [yes EL34]), or look at something like the THD univalve or Cornford. To cut the volume you could try putting thick foam over the speaker when you play at home. Depending on the style of music you are playing, some of the sound is from the volume and speaker interaction with the guitar.
I have heard good things about the sound of the Rivera small amps (Pubster and Clubster), I have a Fender Princeton II (which is the Rivera design), and it sounds great (but still keeps up with my Silver Jubilee in volume). At home I use some stereo 3 watt valve amps and I can't turn them up without attenuating the speakers.
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I have a Silver Jubilee and the power switch really doesn't change the volume much, it just softens the amp.
That's strange, I thought the Jubilee's had a pentode/triode switch? When I go to triode mode on my 100w plexi there's a very noticeable volume reduction, I'd say around 40% - a hell of a lot more than when I've pulled 2 tubes.
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I have a Silver Jubilee and the power switch really doesn't change the volume much, it just softens the amp.
That's strange, I thought the Jubilee's had a pentode/triode switch? When I go to triode mode on my 100w plexi there's a very noticeable volume reduction, I'd say around 40% - a hell of a lot more than when I've pulled 2 tubes.
Mine is the 50w combo, so perhaps this makes the change less obvious. It really seems to affect the dynamics much more than the volume. I guess flat out it might make a lot more difference, but as I really prefer the full output sound I really haven't run it flat out and compared them (plus I like my ears too!).
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Cheers for the info guys.. how much does a decent attenuator cost,, is it worth it ? , can they really push the valves while keeping the volume down ? (sorry im not to clued up on amp tech stuff :cry: )
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10w on an EL34 is pretty easy, we got 1/2 watt on 4 at Matamp......similar ideas to Mavern Peal and London Power amps power selection. Just because 4 EL34s can do 100w (or 150w+) doesn't mean you have to!
The flip side to all of this is speakers and sound preassure. Half of the tone from big Marshalls comes from a lot of air being moved and the speakers working!
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i have a THD hot plate, that i'm using with a JCM800 - i have to tell you that it has improved my sound to no end, and it hardly changes the tone of the amp from its cranked state at all. of course it doesn't have the same "feel" as there is not as much air moving, but it is definately DEFINATELY an option worth considering if you are happy with the tone of your 602. also check the sound clips on the THD site of the hotplate; it has some interesting demos, which clearly show you how well the HotPlate works!
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Cheers this maybe a fairly cheap solution to my problem.
I've seen the THD 16 OHM hot plate going for around 259 are there any other good attenuators I should check out ?
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Eh.....? ;)
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Eh.....? ;)
haha - there's not much competition to the hotplate. theres the marshall powerbreak, but it sucks tone. there's the weber MASS and miniMASS. heard good things about the mass, although it doesnt have so many features as the hotplate i dont think. the miniMASS doesnt sound too good (ask _TOM_) apparently.
Anything else worth a mention guys?
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The Richter ones are pretty good as long as you get the pair the "motherload" and the other one.
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most attenuators suck tone, and you'll never get the sound of an amp on 10 at relatively quiet bedroom levels because of speaker characteristics and dynamics in your hearing, but you can get close (how close depends on what attenuation/power-scaling methodes you use).
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does anyone have any experience with kevin o'connor/london power's power scaling kits? they sound very intersting, i might get one if i ever start amp tinkering
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HJM: An increase of 3 db is double volume. I was under the impression that doubing power far from doubles volume: that you need, as a rule of thumb, all else being equal, etc, 10 times the power for twice the volume.
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HJM: An increase of 3 db is double volume. I was under the impression that doubing power far from doubles volume: that you need, as a rule of thumb, all else being equal, etc, 10 times the power for twice the volume.
if you use dB to reference one level against another, or as a measure of doubling power you get different results. If you apply twice the number of watts you get 3dB, if you want double the loudness (sound intensity) you need 10dB, or as you say 10 times the power. So you're right.
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Oh, as dB is a logarithmic system, if you had 14 times the power, the dB change would be 11.5dB!
This explains better than I can!
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html
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I use the Koch Loadbox II. It's got loads of features.
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Hey Johnny, you'd have been at home on one of those old manual telephone exchanges. That is a great bit of kit you have there.
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I use the Koch Loadbox II. It's got loads of features.
How much does that cost? How well does it preserve the sound?
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It does look a bit like an old exchange! :lol:
There around £245 I think. Yes the sound to my ears stays the same. Plus you have the direct outs, cab sims and a headphone socket!
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It does look a bit like an old exchange! :lol:
There around £245 I think. Yes the sound to my ears stays the same. Plus you have the direct outs, cab sims and a headphone socket!
that sounds really really cool - it might be just what I'm looking for.
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Yeah it looks pretty good. I would be worried about it cutting treble/mushing stuff up though like my Weber thing does, and at £245 I could get a hotplate :lol:
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Yeah it looks pretty good. I would be worried about it cutting treble/mushing stuff up though like my Weber thing does, and at £245 I could get a hotplate :lol:
Theres no mushing up with it Tom, it sounds great. I think hotplates are around the same price but i'm not sure what sort of features they have. It sounds the same thing to me. It's got plates that get hot when you crank it, you should feel the heat that comes out!!
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It'd save me having to fit a DI jack to the back panel of my plexi reissue...
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That thing looks like a beast ! were can i get one :D , and you say there just as good as preserving the natural sound as a hot plate and has more features !
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they look pretty awesome. My one concern would be how far I can stretch the cable attached to my speaker to the unit itself - the cable is soldered to the speaker and I don't want to have to change it. with a hotplate it literally was just long enough...
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It'd save me having to fit a DI jack to the back panel of my plexi reissue...
Just use a DI box, most can take the power!
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I use a 16ohm hotplate with a Marshall TSL602 and the sound is brilliant. The first two or three steps of attenuation hardly affect the sound at all, after that you can use the bright and deep switches on the hotplate to correct any changes that you might hear - it also has built in noise reduction and an adjustable line out. The only thing you may have to do is to unscrew the clamp that holds the speaker cable inside the amp, to get enough length to reach the hotplate.
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It'd save me having to fit a DI jack to the back panel of my plexi reissue...
Exactly! One of the main reasons for getting it. To be fair to the amp it sounds good at low volumes without it. It has two cab sims as you can see from the photo single 12" or 4x12" with two mic sims one sounds brighter than the other.