Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: Jazz Rock on April 24, 2011, 09:53:13 AM
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So I have finally pulled the trigger on a set of MQ for the Epiphone. I set out to swap the pickups last night just to find myself in for a big surprise.
The wiring as it was standing, was done by a luthier who replaced all the stock wiring and pickups to fit a set of SD '59. That was the first guitar I moded and at the time I knew virtually nothing about moding guitars so I had someone do it for me.
Now, I don't know what the guy used to do the solders but that's one hell of a tough material. I have a soldering station on which I can set the iron temperature between 120 and 420 degrees C, and having tried virtually the whole range, I could only get a couple of solder to melt. For the ground connection between the braided cables and the back of the volume pots, I had to resort to cutting the solder material. Thankfully I managed not to make a mess of it. The problem I have though, is the connections to the push/pull pots. Cutting is not really an option as it wouldn't allow me to re-use the eye of the connectors, and I am a lot more likely to do damages there.
What kind of material could he have used? Is there a way to unsolder these connection that will not require the acquisition of an expensive tool or a visit to a tech?
Cheers
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Add some more solder to the joint when you apply heat with the iron-- the new (molten) solder will transfer head much better and will get he old solder flowing again :)
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Add some more solder to the joint when you apply heat with the iron-- the new (molten) solder will transfer head much better and will get he old solder flowing again :)
+1 for this and use a desolder pump or you'll end up with huge blobs of old solder mixed with new solder
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Sounds like your tech used lead-free solder - it's a bitch to remove :(
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Thanks for the tip guys.
I'll give it a try and see how it goes. Based on Twinfan's comment, though, I am expecting a long time spend behind the iron... That's the kind of thing one should do to occupy long winter nights. Not when spring is knocking on the door :(
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Had the same problem recently, sat on one pot for ever...then I used some fresh solder on top, and suddenly, in a matter of seconds it, which previously could not be achieved in minutes. Must have been the heat not properly getting to the solder.
When the solder doesn´t melt, add more xD
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yup tinning the iron first and then flowing more solder into the old is the quickest and easiest way to remove it.
Old solder joints are probably the number 1 cause of heat damaged pots due to how annoyingly frustrating it can be.
My advice is if its taking too long and you dont seem to be getting anywhere take a break make a cup of tea or whatever just to let the pot have a chance to cool back down and then go back to it
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Almost certainly used lead-free solder, which has a higher melting temperature and is sod to remove.
My technique is to remelt to the solder joint and add leaded solder to it.
This reduces the melting temperature and makes removal much easier.
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is there any issue with having leaded and unleaded solder on the same joint?
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is there any issue with having leaded and unleaded solder on the same joint?
There may well be.
However, if you can clean all the solder off the joint (which is good practice anyway) then I don't think that there will be a problem.
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I've had some of those Chinese-made AC30s in for repair in the past year and they seemingly use lead-free solder and it really is a pain in the arse to remove.
The (previously suggested) method of adding some 'leaded' solder works a treat.
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is there any issue with having leaded and unleaded solder on the same joint?
There may well be.
However, if you can clean all the solder off the joint (which is good practice anyway) then I don't think that there will be a problem.
I was thinking the same question as Dmoney.
Lead-free solder stinks, too, I hate using it.
I'd be inclined to just bin the pots and get some new ones.
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Thanks for all the feedback guys.
I haven't got round to try again yet, but was wondering, as I never came across one so far, what kind of effect a shot (through over heating) pot has on your tone. Is it just a question of no signal getting through or is it more subtle then that, like tone alteration of some sort?
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generally it makes the pot not have a full range or no range at all and will just function as an on and off kinda thing then nothing for the rest of the travel
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Right. I through myself back at teh wiring of the Epi... As you can imagine, the reason I am reviving this post is... something is still going wrong.
I have followed your advice about adding some flux. First off, turns out, and I never really tweaked, I am myself using lead free solder, but before this episode, it didn't give me any trouble. Secondly, When I try to apply more flux, it creates a bubble of additional solder which doesn't spread over the existing solder. I believe that this usually happen when the substrat is not hot enough, but believe me, the thing is "boiling hot". I touched it with gloves and I could definitely feel the heat through in a matter of half-second.
So I dispair, what the hell is going on? I have gone up to 300 degree C this time only, and I was working on trying to detach the hot lead to the jack. The worst is, at some point I had a break through, when I tried without the heat sink plier, but not enough to loosen the wire... Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!
"Help me Obiwan Kenobi, you are my only hope"
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I have uploaded a few photos of the tip of my soldering iron as I am wondering if there could be something wrong with it. I lightly brushed it as there was quite a bit of residue on it, making it look completely dull, before starting this new attempt.
Is there any obvious flaws, or damages, or does it look just as it should? I would be annoyed if it was shot as I have only used it once for the installation of the boss set in the tele last year.
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It looks like it needs a good clean to me or a replacement tip.
If i dont have any replacements and it gets all clogged like that i clean everything off with sandpaper until its shiny again then retin it.
Its essential to clean your iron after use to stop build up
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Hey Toe-knee, What do you mean by "retin it"?
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Hey Toe-knee, What do you mean by "retin it"?
Just the same as tinning it normally.
once its heated up apply some solder to the tip before working.
After i do every joint i always clean the tip off on a damp sponge and retin just to keep everything clean
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Thanks for the tip. I have had a quick read on the following webpage http://www.elexp.com/t_solder.htm and it seems like that could be my problem, the tip probably became unwettable. Hopefully I'll be motivated enough to give it another try tomorrow evening.
3rd attempt, still 10 yards to go!
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Right, I am now convinced that the tip of my soldering iron is shot.
I tried to re-tin it but it didn't work, there is about one spot left on the whole tip that does melt flux. So I have seen I coul dget a replacement tip from eBay. Hopefully it will be delivered before the week end so I can finally put this guitar back together.
I guess, taking another look at the manual, I haven't been very good at maintaining the tip... that will teach me.
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Do you not have a local Maplins?
They have a good selection of tips.
And we all make these mistakes at first.
i know i did
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There is a maplin around, but because the construction of the iron seemed a bit peculiar (based on my limited experience with these things) I thought it would be safer to get replacement tips from the manufacturer of the station. Besdides, by ordering on eBay it arrived on Thursday, while I wouldn't have been able to go to Maplin before today.
Anyway, I am now at a complete loss. I fitted the replacement tip yesterday night, started to work on the hot connection of the jack, added a bit of fresh solder and the whole came out in a flash. That is when I told myself: this is it, I will finally have the Epi put back together tonight!!! I wish.
I then get on to the earth connection. Again, it doesn't come off with just the heat, so I start adding new flux... and that is when it starts to go weird. I managed to add flux allright, but once it was there, I had no way to get it out, not even the bit I had just added. So I tried with different temperature setting (I started at 240, and then tried between 180 to 350), in half an hour, the new tip was behaving like the one I just took out, i.e. only a couple of areas were melting the soldering material.
What I really don't understand is that I used this soldering station for the replacement of the pups and switch of the Tele, 2 years ago, and even if I have in the back of my mind this memory of feeling that it was a bit of hardwork - having to heat connections for a wee while - it did the job. So how come now I could only do one solder with the new tip and then it all went to pots? Could it be that storing the station for 2 years, in a dry and flat temp. environment, had an effect on the unit? Is it a known fact that it is not a good thing to leave a soldering station unused for too long?
Before this station, I had a cheapo soldering iron from Maplin, which worked quite well for the work I did on my LPs (which includes the Epi), until I started the work on the Tele, which is when I bought the station with temperature control. Would you recommand to go back down the route of a simple soldering iron? Doing a bit of research on this and another forum, It seemed there was a concensus on using a 40W soldering iron, with the brand Antex recommanded for the UK, for all soldering work on a guitar.
To conclude this long-ish complaint / dry out for help, I have been to the guitarguitar in Edinburgh this morning (yet another big disappointment: Dispite me contacted them by e-mail, saying I wanted to come try out some gear this Saturday, they failed to let me know that they ran out of stock on the Egnater Tweaker 15 head I wanted to buy and on the Vox cabinet I wanted to try to see if it could be suitably paired with the former). I mentionned my soldering problem and related his own experience with a bass where the soldering connection had dried out, he couldn't undo them at all and had to replace the whole wiring and pots. Is there really cases where there is no way to unsolder a connection?
Thanks to whoever has been brave enough to bear with me this long on this post and will come up with a bit of advice PDT_014
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With what you say is happening i would just snip off the wiring as close to the pot as you can
then buy new pots etc and just do a total rewire it would be cheaper and chances are now with that much heat the old pots are damaged.
And i use an antex 18w iron for all my guitar work and amp building and a 30w when im doing things like caps that have thick legs and require a bit more heat.
An 18w will do for most things though
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Thanks Toe-Knee,
Looking at the antex range of iron I realised that even the 18W model gets hotter than the setting I am using with the station, so I'll give it another try with a bit more heat.
Wish me luck!
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Okay, it is about time to bring some closure to this thread. In an attempt to make this experience something more than a big waste of my time, here is what I have learned. Hopefully, it will help someone around here avoiding doing the same thing:
So in retrospect, I think what I stumbled upon was a three-fold-ish problem:
1) I think this is the one that started it all. I don't quite understand how it came about as I have been using this soldering station succesfully in the past. Anyway, number one was that I was setting the temperature too low to get the job done, which may or may not be the only real problem from which all the rest stemmed.
2) Probably because of the poor maintenance regime I put it through, and the above matter, the tip of the iron wasn't wetting properly, the cleaning of the tip with a light grit sponge probably was the last straw. Having said that, as I mentionned earlier in this thread, the new tip started to behave in a similar way after just about half an hour of use... So maybe the original tip is not shot after all, and could be re-used at a suitable temperature.
3) The other real issue, was that some of the solder were dry as bone and needed a good amount of new solder to finally flow again... With the iron set too low, I had hard time getting even th enew solder to flow so couldn't really see the wood for the tree before I finally increase the heat.
With the station at about 370°C, it all worked out pretty smoothly, eventhough I managed to screw up the wiring and the re-fit of the nut. I was getting a bit fed up with the whole process - spent most of the day on the guitar - and rushed things at the end, not realising the nut was ever so slightly off to the treble side... So will have to do some more work in a not-so-distant-future. And will ask for more advice about thewiring... But that will be another thread... once I have scanned the wiring schematic I came up with!
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I'm glad you have it all worked out.
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Thanks for the support Toe-Knee :wink:
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No problem
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Glad you got it sorted.
370degC is the minimum temperature I would use with solder used in electrical appliances. Some lead-free solder is only really workable at 425degC.
Silver loaded lead/tin solder has the lowest melting temperature of 179degC. Normal Pb/Sn is in the range 180-184 degC and lead-free solders are start around 210, but many are around 224degC.
Having used the lead-free solder, I tend to find that it leaves a fairly resilient black coat on the tip, which I assume is oxidized flux.
I find this bit cleaner very helpful:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Accessories/Lead-free-soldering-iron-bit-cleaner/74867/kw/tip+cleaner
Also I've started using brass wool to clean the tip rather than the habitual wetted sponge:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Accessories/Tip-cleaner/35323/kw/tip+cleaner
This is slightly abrasive so is better at removing stubborn residues, and also doesn't subject the tip to cooling/ heating.
As a final tip, make sure your iron is cleaned immediately before you start working with it. After soldering a joint don't clean the tip until you start working again.