Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Cboysen on April 29, 2011, 10:48:45 PM
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Hi, sorry if this has been answered before, quite a lot of similar threads out there but nothing exact I think.
Summery (if you don't care to read it all): Looking for something similar to EMG81/85 just better and more organic.
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Which pickups should I replace my EMG81 and EMG85 with? - I do like the tone of my EMG 81 for anything metal and the 85 for smooth lead stuff, but everything regarding cleans are very hard to dial in through my 6505+. I know, 6505+, not the best cleans and EMG 81 are just overly hot, and if i finally get clean without grid, it's just not cutting through and also very dry. Anyway, I don't use the 6505+ for cleans anymore since I got a Digitech RP1000 which replaces my preamp section when using cleans in a 4 cable method kinda thing, works really well, it's like having a third seperate channel on the amp. Also, I really got a 'dream' crunch tone from the rhythm channel with the crunch engaged.
I play mostly metal or hard rock.. well mostly modern pop-ish metal. My tone, or at least the one I'm trying to achieve is some deviation of Carcass / Unearth kinda thing, just with a slightly difference harmonic feel, actually something along the lines of a boosted JCM800 for powermetal, think Hammerfall or Manowar harmonics, and then some Hard Rock stuff for rhythm. I really enjoyed Tims test of the Miracle Mans and the artificial harmonic sound produced. Well Sorry for being so vague and imprecise, but basically I'm looking for a warm raw non-buzzing humbucker set, which allows me to easily get good cleans and crushing crunch/hi-gain, all (nearly) depending on the preamp. It don't need to turn down the volume knob on the EMG to get a fairly clean tone and still maintain the rawness of the 6505 as it is now, so the no worries there, it should be possible. Also, I'm not in anyway looking for something that will sound djent, but i suppose that's mostly about the amp and not the pickup.
Anyway, I hope you could decipher my bad English. Thanks.
kind regards. Christian
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I think the Miracle man set would work wonders for you
definitely the miracle man bridge anyway maybe a cold sweat in the neck.
I personally have a miracle man in the bridge and a mississippi queen in the neck as i use it exclusively for cleans and smooth leads and this combo is fantastic.
i actually have a hammerfall clip done with this setup
http://soundcloud.com/wartime-novelty/in-memoriam
The rhythm is all the miracle man and the leads are the MQ
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If you want Hard rock / metal with more organic qualitys than the EMGs, consider Alcino Nailbomb set, perhaps Cold Sweat neck. Many will say this, cause it´s supposed to be very versatile, heavy, agressive, raw, organic...just what you want basecally. Can go from Hammerfall to Pantera and all.
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jesus.. Insane reply speed.. :lol:
I'll definitely look into it, but just now, what's the difference between the Nailbomb and the MM? I hear the MM is for trash mostly, and well.. in my head i've always associated trash with Metallica, and thus a bit of smiley-face eq-ing / scooping.. and well, I really cant stand those scooped sounds, also are extremely hard get a cut in the mix.. But I suppose it'd juts mean that I'd have to turn up the mid-knob a bit :) - Anyway, for all it's worth, if you got some killer combo of "these pups just slays for any kind of metal"-sorta pup, I'm always looking for ideas. As far as sound goes, I'll probably never get completely satisfied, but I take that as a good thing.
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Btw, Toe-Knee .. very nice audio sample. I like the core tone a lot in that lead stuff, and the crunchy rhythm is nice, very non-buzzing, I like that. Thanks for sharing
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Okay, so far I'm totally hyped for the clean sound of this sample of the Bridge position nailbomb, it's just the right amount of resonance I'd want. Awesome axe-fx effects too, but Im trying not to focus too much on that;)
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17121.0 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17121.0)
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Painkiller set, oh yeah 8)
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what is the guitar? :?
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I think the Miracle man set would work wonders for you
definitely the miracle man bridge anyway maybe a cold sweat in the neck.
I have a MM set in my Viper and find the neck pickup to be a bit flat (the bridge is just awesome though). Funilly enough I've just ordered a CS neck for it.
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what is the guitar? :?
My guitar is a Korean ESP LTD JH-600 (Jeff Hanneman Sig. guitar)
Spec:
Construction: Neck-thru-body
Scale: 25.5 in.
Body: Alder
Neck: 3-piece Maple
Fingerboard: Ebony
Pickups: EMG 81 (B) / 85 (N) active
Controls: Volume & tone w/3-way toggle
Hardware: Black
Bridge: Kahler Hybrid Bridge
Binding: White on neck & headstock
Frets: 24 XJ
(taking from their website)
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My Cabinet is an Orange PPC412 w/ v30. .. just amazing stuff.
kind regards
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Hmm.... Read through a couple of reviews on the nailbomb, and it seems it's quite affected by wood-quality compared to EMGs, which are basically non-provocative whatsoever. Of course modern metal is my prime idea of the sound I seek, and the nailbomb IS modern, or so they say, but they talk about a certain edge or grittiness that associates with what I'd call buzz, but of course I can be wrong about that. As mentioned, my guitar is alder, which makes it fairly bright, but on the other hand, the tonal range of alder is quite big, and it leaves it open for quite some pronounced mid/low-mid. Given that my 6505+ is voiced slighty dark, I'm a little uncertain how it will respond to my ESP guitar if I equipped it with, say, Nailbomb and coldsweat. I'm aware that a pickup can't change the world in sound, but still adjust the characteristics. I don't have the possibility to return the pickups once i buy them, at least not without a major loss, since I cannot install the pickups myself, at least I don't dare to try.
Although my biggest hope for new pickups was the ability to actually play some decent clean sounds, but I'm nervous about ending up with my main hi-gain sound being gritty/buzzing/hairy year 1985-1995-ish metal sound - Sigh, Sound is extremely hard to describe :)
Anyway. thanks
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MM/Coldsweat.
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MM/Coldsweat.
The MM/Coldsweat seems to be similarly popular to the nailbomb/Coldsweat combo. How does the MM/CS compare to EMG81/85? The mids of the 81 is more pronounced than the MM they say, but still usually it's the characters of the pickup as a whole that makes you like it or not. Also i heard the cold sweat got amazing cleans in the neck position - Which of course would be really good. How's the organic feel of the MM? and does it 'beat' the 81 in the hi-gain modern metal league? So if you can put a total description of the MM and CS, what would that be, and what kind of 'time'/'genre' is the MM associated with?
Sorry for all the questions, did try to seach for it myself, but a lot of people have reviewed this pups, and most people say the MM is similar to the 81, but that doesnt necessarily mean it 'feels' the same?
Thanks (in advance) for the responses:)
kind regads
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the ceramic nailbomb has a more balanced voicing than the miracle man (bit more mids, less bass)
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Your guitar body may be Alder but as it's a neck-thru construction, it's the maple of the neck that will give it most of its tonal qualities. It will probably be a bit more middy that a conventional alder guitar like a Strat. My own guitar is maple neck-thru and it's noticeably more middy than my Yamaha Pacifica which is alder body and bolt on maple neck. The Miracle Man works particularly well in maple neck-thrus so is well worth consideration. It was a maple neck-thru with mahogany wings on the guitar I tried and that was Miracle Man bridge with a Cold Sweat neck and it was a killer combination.
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Oh thanks for the insight, i'll definitely look into the miracle man then - What kind of tone did you achieve with the combination of MM and CS?
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I dare say it's not the same as living with a guitar but in my short tries on the guitar it seemed to me that the Zak Wylde tag was entirely suitable. It did that kind of tone really well but it retained an organic quality that I never really associate with active pickups. It was quite warm compared to actives but at the same time it was clearly modern in tone and could really cut through. The EQ chart on the website suggests it's mid-scooped and maybe that's why it works so well with naturally middy maple neck-thrus. It sounded a really well balanced pickup in that guitar. Pinched harmonics were fantastic and the cleans were OK but a bit limited, probably by the ceramic magnet.
The Cold Sweat in the neck position had tremendous clarity. I was trying to get a Dave Murray tone out of it but never quite managed it as I always found it a bit too cutting for that but it had a tremendous tone in its own right and that creamy Dave Murray tone may well still be possible with more time to tweak the settings.
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Okay thanks, well worth considering. I see your jackson soloist got holydiver in it instead, - the soloist got a rather modern feel to it by nature, so what made you choose that pickup over say nailbomb, painkiller, warpig, MM etc - Or did you buy it this way?
Just curious :)
thanks
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Originally the Jackson came stock, so it had a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge and Hotrails for the middle and neck. The JB was a pretty good pickup but the Hotrails I didn't like at all. At first I went for an Alnico Nailbomb in the bridge but that just wasn't right at all. I posted an extensive review of the Nailbomb so I won't bore you with the details now but here's a link if you're curious:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24270.0
I've had ceramic pickups before and tried them in other people's guitars and they're great at what they do but I wanted something that was warmer, more organic and more fat and fluid than ceramics tend to be this time. An alnico magnet seemed to be the way to go. I liked the Miracle Man in the neck-thru I tried but I wanted something that had a bit more of an 80s tone and the MM has a far more modern voice. I know a Soloist has a modern shred feel to it but I'm in no way a shredder so I realise that me owning this guitar is a bit of an oxymoron but I like 24 frets, double cut, neck-thru guitars with a locking trem and in truth, that specification severely limits your options. As my style owes a lot to Blues and late 70s/early 80s Rock/Metal I sometimes feel a little like Albert King playing a Flying V!
I play in a Rock covers band so it's 80s Metal, Hard Rock and some more modern songs as well. The Heaviest thing we do is Metallica and Disturbed and at the opposite end of the spectrum it's bands like Feeder, The Animals, Semisonic and Kasabian. The Nailbomb was far too aggressive for that and the MM has too modern a voice. I also felt that the MM wouldn't have the versatility to cover the styles I was after and the same could be said of the Warpig. Given all I've said, the Painkiller was never going to work and the one time I tried one, I just didn't like it. I was originally sorely tempted by the Holydiver but went for the Nailbomb because it's supposed to be so versatile, which it is in a way but it always seems to retain this 90s Metal edginess that I just didn't like. Once I realised that the NB was wrong, the HD was the obvious choice. I thought that for the genres you mention the HD would suit you too but your reference to EMG contradicts that and screams out MM instead. I've never really liked active EMG pups because I find them too sterile. The MM has all of the advantages of an EMG in my opinion while retaining a more organic feel to it but like an EMG, it's not super versatile and the cleans are ok rather than good. I'll be posting a detailed review of the HD too if you're interested but I only had the pickup installed last night so it looks like its first run out will be band practice this afternoon :D
For great neck lead tones btw, I believe the Holydiver is also superb, though I've never tried one myself. That may be worth considering too so hopefully someone with experience of the neck HD will comment.
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Just to add this in.
The miracle man is actually a lot more versatile than people think.
The only thing that limits it is the clean sounds which are very specific.
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Just to add this in.
The miracle man is actually a lot more versatile than people think.
The only thing that limits it is the clean sounds which are very specific.
I wouldn't argue with that at all. My impression was that it was far more than a one trick pony but there were probably other pickups were ultimately more versatile. Cleans were a bit sterile but I imagine that most people with a MM probably aren't using cleans all that much 8)
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I have Miracle Man's in my basswood Suhr and they are indeed great pick ups. They retain metal style dynamics very well, although I wouldn't say they were necessarily organic or versatile. Unfortunately they don't split well... That being said they are indeed amazing metal pups. They do have "somewhat" of a similar character to an EMG 81/85 set, although they are much rounder in a sense. THEY HAVE THE GOOD QUALITIES OF THE 81/85. The treble is not so overly pronounced and the bass is tight, big, and smoother.
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Oh thanks for the really detailed reply, much appreciated - I did read your post / thread, even before making my own post, and really it's a right insight you got. About pickups, I'm extremely torn.. usually I will never buy anything before having it tried for years in the shop etc, but this time I have to take leap of faith, and just go with what feels right. I'm not AT ALL an 80'ies hairy metal guy, but that doesn't mean I don't like the tone sometimes, especially those who can dial their JCM800 together with X other amp and get incredible stuff, that just slays most modern lead tone, but from a rhythm point, it's not for me. My main tone is not clean, it probably never will be - But I do use them. My band usually goes with the intro and the bridge as some sort of clean sound, but other than that it's pretty much Hard Rock / (insert whatever subgenre) Metal, so of course it would be amazing to half great cleans, but now it's more of a question of having cleans that you dare presenting to an audience. The MM does seem to be the one I'm going for, but nothing is at all settled - As I said, I don't like options that I can't clarify or rule out, so before I go with anything, I'm gonna make sure I'm an expert on pickups ;) It's the first time i change something from stock, except string gauge :) Anyway..
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I have Miracle Man's in my basswood Suhr and they are indeed great pick ups. They retain metal style dynamics very well, although I wouldn't say they were necessarily organic or versatile. Unfortunately they don't split well... That being said they are indeed amazing metal pups. They do have "somewhat" of a similar character to an EMG 81/85 set, although they are much rounder in a sense. THEY HAVE THE GOOD QUALITIES OF THE 81/85. The treble is not so overly pronounced and the bass is tight, big, and smoother.
Hmm.. now I see both the good and bad in that - the fact that miracle mans work great in your basswood, is only for my satisfaction since I can only assume that they will work similarly well in my guitar, although it's maple neck, that should just get it a bit rounder, but a little more trebly too I guess. About the treble of the EMG themselves, I tend to think that it got great highs, just enough, the 85 in the neck position lacks trebly, which makes it a great solo/lead thing when equipped with some reverb/delay, so when you say it's not so overly pronounced, I dunno whether thats a good or a bad thing. I'm aware that there are more organic and versatile pickups than the MM, that being said, I'm quite sure a lot of it is in your fingers, but enough about that. Organic or not, what I mean is that I just want the ability to turn down the volume knob and indeed round off the gain to some good cleans or crunches, instead of just lowering the volume of the guitar like you more or less do with the EMGs.
But take it that you have tried it and compared it against the EMGs and like the result, that's only very positive.
kind regards
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The MM's are a hell of a lot better than the EMG's, trust me.
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The MM's are a hell of a lot better than the EMG's, trust me.
Okay :) Will do then. So you say - if I like the EMG81/85 set, I'll be totally hyped about the MM/CS combo :)?
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Definitely.
Its like EMGs without the bad points.
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Well thats promising, now the only question is - Is it worth the £300 for buying,shipping, installing :)? I know that's not really a question that got any answer, but it's like when I considered changing the stock tubes of my 6505+, only to figure out it was equipped with something pretty decent - enough that I possibly wouldn't hear a difference. As I said, I havent changed pickups before, so the actual difference in sound is only what I've read from stuff on the internet (unreliable to the teeth! ;)) and not experienced first-hand.
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Well thats promising, now the only question is - Is it worth the £300 for buying,shipping, installing :)? I know that's not really a question that got any answer, but it's like when I considered changing the stock tubes of my 6505+, only to figure out it was equipped with something pretty decent - enough that I possibly wouldn't hear a difference. As I said, I havent changed pickups before, so the actual difference in sound is only what I've read from stuff on the internet (unreliable to the teeth! ;)) and not experienced first-hand.
Have only changed PUs twice (and cause you mentioned it several tubes) and althoug the PU changes were big changes (not similar models) there was a big difference. Tubes too.
I can basecally garantee you that you will notice a difference in not only sound but also feel and response.
I can not garantee that you´ll like the new things, but they will be different.
But judging from the comments here you´ll probably love them too^^
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I've had several Ibanez 7620's that I put MM's into the bridge and absolutely love them (I currently still have one)
In basswood (anyway) describing the MM as a more open organic EMG 707 is a dead on description.
lots of low mids (I have a 5150 II so I know what kind of tone you are going to get).
the thing I like about the MM is that it sounds nice and tight for rhythm playing (like an EMG) but the lead tone is much sweeter.
It's the only Ceramic BK bridge pickup I've gotten along with.
the other thing that's kind of cool about the MM is that is just "drinks up gain" it doesn't fizz out it just gets thicker sounding.
I've also had the Alnico Nailbomb (which I also loved) in a Carvin DC 727.
tone differences thru a 5150 II
MM -think more of a Nevermore "Dead heart in a dead World" tone
NailBomb-- think more of an Arch Enemy type of tone (alot more upper mid emphasis)
both work great just depends what you're after.
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I've had several Ibanez 7620's that I put MM's into the bridge and absolutely love them (I currently still have one)
In basswood (anyway) describing the MM as a more open organic EMG 707 is a dead on description.
lots of low mids (I have a 5150 II so I know what kind of tone you are going to get).
the thing I like about the MM is that it sounds nice and tight for rhythm playing (like an EMG) but the lead tone is much sweeter.
It's the only Ceramic BK bridge pickup I've gotten along with.
the other thing that's kind of cool about the MM is that is just "drinks up gain" it doesn't fizz out it just gets thicker sounding.
I've also had the Alnico Nailbomb (which I also loved) in a Carvin DC 727.
tone differences thru a 5150 II
MM -think more of a Nevermore "Dead heart in a dead World" tone
NailBomb-- think more of an Arch Enemy type of tone (alot more upper mid emphasis)
both work great just depends what you're after.
Well that's definitely informative stuff - I do like the Nevermore tone more, so I guess that's a good thing! If no one objects, I'm quite certain i'll be purchasing that set someday in the near future.
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I was wondering - Is it possible to drill two holes for some switches to split the humbuckers into single coils? I could still use the 3 way troggle from the EMG i suppose, but then just wire 2 more 2-way switches to split them seperately - It would give a lot of options in sound at least? Even if it is possible, would this affect tone in any way, say comparing miracle man not split without split option and miracle not split WITH split option?
Thanks
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i would personally go for the ibanez style wiring and use a 5 way if possible as the position with the inner coil of the MM and another pickup sounds absolutely amazing.
There is a chart for this on the bkp main site
it also gives you good options.
I especially like the neck parrallel mode
You would need to order the neck pickup with the magnet flipped though in order to keep it hum cancelling in all positions.
Another option which is less destructive would be to use push pull pots for the different switching options.
Both of these save you having to drill your guitar
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i would personally go for the ibanez style wiring and use a 5 way if possible as the position with the inner coil of the MM and another pickup sounds absolutely amazing.
There is a chart for this on the bkp main site
it also gives you good options.
I especially like the neck parrallel mode
You would need to order the neck pickup with the magnet flipped though in order to keep it hum cancelling in all positions.
Another option which is less destructive would be to use push pull pots for the different switching options.
Both of these save you having to drill your guitar
Hmm.. that does seem tricky indeed - how does this push/pull thing work, i guess you invert the phasing orso? - Either way, don't you need some kind of switch equipped to go from humbucker to single coil.
I would really love to have following to switch between and in that way I'd be needing 3 switches with 3 stages each.
1) a. Neck, b. Both neck and bridge, c. Bridge (as normal)
2) a. left neck single, b. neck humbucker, c. right neck single
3) a. left bridge single, b. bridge humbucker, c. right bridge single
having a 5 way switch, is usually a bad idea for me personally, since I always stress out and smash the switch to the neck position when going for a descending appergios etc etc, and that never worked out well for me in my ibanez RG ;) - In this way at least i'd be able to switch to the humbucker from single coil midway when not using it (when playing in the bridge position) and then I'll be able to smash away without caring much for whether I'm gonna land in single coil neck or humbucker neck... anyway... is it even at all possible, and would i be needing different magnet replacements for that? - I was going to order from dv247.com but they only seem to have one kind of the cold sweat and miracle man.
thanks