Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Jonasan5150 on May 07, 2011, 04:53:33 AM
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Hey guys! So I'm new to this forum and just recently discovered BKP thanks to a friend of mine. He hasn't played any, neither have I but I'm very curious about these pickups. Sorry if I overwhelm you guys with loads of information, I've been wanting to ask my own personal questions for awhile now :mrgreen:
So I have a Gibson SG Standard, Peavey 6505 plus combo and a Digitech RP1000 multi effects pedalboard. With my current 498t/490r set on my guitar, it sounds very thin and trebley. Lack of bass and crunch (I love some big crunchy palm mutes). I was looking at some Seymour Duncans to suit me but now that I heard of BKP, I would like to know which pickup would beef up my thin SG, give me that big powerful crunch sound without it being a one trick pony. I play for my youth church band, pop punk (Four Year Strong, All Time Low, Chunk No Captain Chunk), alternative metal (RED). I'm so much of a shredder but I do play a bit of metal, I'm more of a rhythm guitar player so a big powerful crunchy sound is what I'm looking at to balance the natural treble that an SG gets from its thin body yet versatile. And one more question, how does BKP compare to SD pickups?
Thanks!
P.S- If you need more information about my style and gear than please let me know! I want to help you guys get a good idea of what I want from my gear :D
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A-Bomb or C-Bomb. Maybe a Miracle Man.
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How about the Emerald and Warpig? I've heard they're good pickups to really beef up and SG
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As the accepted wisdom with SG guitars is to either go high or low output and as you want a big bottom end, this screams out Warpig set to me. As for how they compare to Seymour Duncan; they're a lot better. BKP have more articulation, more character and a more organic nature. I just ditched a JB and a pair of Hotrails out of my guitar for a Holydiver and Trilogy Suite set and there's just no way the Seymour Duncans could live with the quality of BKP.
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Black Dog. It's low power enough to not mush out, but very growly and full on the mids.
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A-Bomb or C-Bomb. Maybe a Miracle Man.
I had the Miracle Man first. It turned the SG into a face-melting wrecking ball. NOT sure that's what the original poster wants.
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Thanks for the replies you guys! So I've narrowed my choices down to the Warpig, Black Dog, and Nail Bomb. So which one of these will be the best choice to beef up my SG and will give me a big crunchy sound? And which of these will be versatile? As what Alex said, I don't want a pickup that's just for metal that melts faces. I like to play other stuff than metal :D so far from the sound clips they all sound great!
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I'm currently waiting for a A-Bomb bridge for my own '80 SG Standard, so I can't tell yet how it works - now my own SG is definitly not thin sounding nor trebly (rather on the dark and "full" side) so it won't probably sound the same.
I haven't tried the Warpig neither but listened to quite a few clips of it and it's really "massive" in the low end. Might be what you want, but be warned: it's obviously kind of br00talz.
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I'm currently waiting for a A-Bomb bridge for my own '80 SG Standard, so I can't tell yet how it works - now my own SG is definitly not thin sounding nor trebly (rather on the dark and "full" side) so it won't probably sound the same.
I haven't tried the Warpig neither but listened to quite a few clips of it and it's really "massive" in the low end. Might be what you want, but be warned: it's obviously kind of br00talz.
Let me know how it sounds when it comes in if you don't mind. And about the Warpigs, there's no question in my mind that it's going to be brutal :enforcer: that's where I'm starting to doubt its versatility.... :?
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Thanks for the replies you guys! So I've narrowed my choices down to the Warpig, Black Dog, and Nail Bomb. So which one of these will be the best choice to beef up my SG and will give me a big crunchy sound? And which of these will be versatile? As what Alex said, I don't want a pickup that's just for metal that melts faces. I like to play other stuff than metal :D so far from the sound clips they all sound great!
To be completely honest, each of these should be better than the original 498T. The Nailbomb is probably closest in terms of general tonality.
When you exchange pickups I'd recommend you also get some proper new CTS pots as well. The SG standard's neck pickup becomes a lot more usable with new pots as well.
A few more thoughts: the Nailbomb fattens treble strings up a bit in my opinion, the Black Dog doesn't so much. The BD has more clarity however and a more vintage/PAF feel. The NB is a bit tighter in the low end, but I always feel tightness comes a lot from the amp's EQ in the end, not the pickup.
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warpig :) Super nice pickup
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warpig :) Super nice pickup
Err... Care to elaborate ?
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To be completely honest, each of these should be better than the original 498T. The Nailbomb is probably closest in terms of general tonality.
When you exchange pickups I'd recommend you also get some proper new CTS pots as well. The SG standard's neck pickup becomes a lot more usable with new pots as well.
A few more thoughts: the Nailbomb fattens treble strings up a bit in my opinion, the Black Dog doesn't so much. The BD has more clarity however and a more vintage/PAF feel. The NB is a bit tighter in the low end, but I always feel tightness comes a lot from the amp's EQ in the end, not the pickup.
Ok I'm gonna sound very stupid but what does CTS mean and what effects do the pots have to the pickups? Also, I honestly really hate my stock neck pickup lol....I'm also hoping to replace it but I'm not so sure what I exactly want out of it unlike the bridge pickup. Now for the Nailbomb and BD, can these pickups be crunchy and have good palm mutes? As I said before, I'm picky about my rhythm sound and palm mutes. I dig big crunchy sounds and crunchy palm mutes 8)
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warpig :) Super nice pickup
Err... Care to elaborate ?
Yeah, please elaborate. I wanna know why so many people love the warpig :P and if you can, can tell you tell us the versatiliy and how it matches to the Nailbomb and BD please?
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Ok I'm gonna sound very stupid but what does CTS mean and what effects do the pots have to the pickups?
CTS is just a pot brand - which happens to be of decent quality. About the effect of pots on your tone (and overly simpified): a part of the high frequencies always "bleed" to the pot's earth. The higher the pot's value, the lesser you loose your highs, so you can play on the pot's value as a kind of fixed tone control. One usually uses lesser values for bright vintage single coils (250K pots is the standard on strats and teles) and higher values for darker higher output humbuckers (500K being the standard).
Note that there's usually a +/- 20% tolerance so a 500K pot can range from 450 to 550K (usually it's rather between 450 and 500 than above 500). And yes, 50K can make an audible difference.
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Ok I'm gonna sound very stupid but what does CTS mean and what effects do the pots have to the pickups?
CTS is just a pot brand - which happens to be of decent quality. About the effect of pots on your tone (and overly simpified): a part of the high frequencies always "bleed" to the pot's earth. The higher the pot's value, the lesser you loose your highs, so you can play on the pot's value as a kind of fixed tone control. One usually uses lesser values for bright vintage single coils (250K pots is the standard on strats and teles) and higher values for darker higher output humbuckers (500K being the standard).
Note that there's usually a +/- 20% tolerance so a 500K pot can range from 450 to 550K (usually it's rather between 450 and 500 than above 500). And yes, 50K can make an audible difference.
Exactly. To add to that: Gibson uses some rather strange pots rated at 300K (usually mixed with some 500K). I have found on my two Gibsons that new pots have improved the tonal quality a lot, making the sound not only brighter but also better defined, transparent and less mushy.
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Hmmm...so 500k pots are the way to go for humbuckers?
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There is no hard and fast rule but I believe most would agree that 500k works well for humbuckers - the best compromise between good high frequency response and even taper.
Cheers Stephan
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OK thanks. So what's a good neck pickup that will suit the Warpig, Black Dog, and/or Alnice Nailbomb? I haven't decided which bridge pickup yet so until I settle on one I'm open to any options for the neck pickup.
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I'm currently waiting for a A-Bomb bridge for my own '80 SG Standard, so I can't tell yet how it works - now my own SG is definitly not thin sounding nor trebly (rather on the dark and "full" side) so it won't probably sound the same.
Let me know how it sounds when it comes in if you don't mind.
So here we go... Just a very quick "first impressions" review, as I only had a few minutes to try it out, but well... First and most important point: it works quite well in this particular SG - "big powerful crunchy sound", very clear and detailed even under high gain, rich highs but with present lows and roaring mids, and definitly NOT thin at all :twisted:. Works wonder for power chords and open chords riffs, had to roll down the tone knob a bit for leads but haven't tweaked anything (height adjustement, amp settings etc) yet. I'll tell you more after our next rehearsal...
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OK thanks. So what's a good neck pickup that will suit the Warpig, Black Dog, and/or Alnice Nailbomb? I haven't decided which bridge pickup yet so until I settle on one I'm open to any options for the neck pickup.
I'd say VHII is a good choice, probably too hot for the Black Dog though. In that case I'd go for one of the Vintage pups like a Mule.
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So here we go... Just a very quick "first impressions" review, as I only had a few minutes to try it out, but well... First and most important point: it works quite well in this particular SG - "big powerful crunchy sound", very clear and detailed even under high gain, rich highs but with present lows and roaring mids, and definitly NOT thin at all :twisted:. Works wonder for power chords and open chords riffs, had to roll down the tone knob a bit for leads but haven't tweaked anything (height adjustement, amp settings etc) yet. I'll tell you more after our next rehearsal...
Ok that sounds like what I'm looking for. How is the versatility? Btw thanks for the update!
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OK thanks. So what's a good neck pickup that will suit the Warpig, Black Dog, and/or Alnice Nailbomb? I haven't decided which bridge pickup yet so until I settle on one I'm open to any options for the neck pickup.
I'd say VHII is a good choice, probably too hot for the Black Dog though. In that case I'd go for one of the Vintage pups like a Mule.
What kind of tone does the VHII give? Thanks for the suggestion!
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So here we go... Just a very quick "first impressions" review, as I only had a few minutes to try it out, but well... First and most important point: it works quite well in this particular SG - "big powerful crunchy sound", very clear and detailed even under high gain, rich highs but with present lows and roaring mids, and definitly NOT thin at all :twisted:. Works wonder for power chords and open chords riffs, had to roll down the tone knob a bit for leads but haven't tweaked anything (height adjustement, amp settings etc) yet. I'll tell you more after our next rehearsal...
Ok that sounds like what I'm looking for. How is the versatility? Btw thanks for the update!
After a rehearsal, a quick height adjustement and a first gig, I can confirm the first impressions. While it's not quite as warm for lead work as the old JB(J) it replaces, the added bite, clarity and definition really helped for the gig yesterday, as I didn't have to overpower my singer's guitar to cut thru the mix.
wrt/ versatility, it's perhaps a bit too soon to give an in-depth answer, but it indeed seems to react as advertised to the volume pot, going from full-roar to more classic, old school rock tones, without loosing bite nor definition (Gibson 50s style wiring with PIO caps and 500K pots here).
Once again, both SGs and NBs are known to be bit picky wrt/ what (resp) pups / guitars they work fine with so I can't tell how it would sound in your own axe, but it seems I'm a lucky bar-steward, 'cause so far it really sounds good in mine :mrgreen:
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From what I hear, it gives a more cutting and "single coil-y" sounding.
By the way, what is it about SGs that makes it harder to go pickup shopping for?
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By the way, what is it about SGs that makes it harder to go pickup shopping for?
It's just that a set-neck, all-mahogany construction naturally tends to emphasise bass and midrange frequencies (even though the thin body of an SG can make it sound quite bright acoustically).
It seems to work very well with vintage-output pickups (Mule, Stormy Monday, Riff Raff). It also works with high-output pickups because you're almost hearing more pickup than wood. But when you fit a medium-output pickup with a bit of bass or lower-mids it seems to mush out and/or get boomy on the bass strings (the worst pickup I ever tried in an SG was a DiMarzio Tone Zone, a horrible muddy mess).
Personally I think you can get away with some medium-output pickups, if they're bright and tight enough: Cold Sweats sound awesome in an SG, and I think the Rebel Yell would work too. Crawlers or Holydivers wouldn't work!
Here's a very old quote from Tim:
I always recommend trying to keep the output low on SG's as medium output pickups mud out with all that mahogany, hence my Riff Raff suggestion.A high gainer like a Warpig sounds good and so does a Miracle Man as both have more than enough power to really drive through timber.Funnily enough I fitted a Stormy Monday to a friends SG and that sounded really nice too......quite a surprise but it chunked up really well into an overdriven Marshall.
The ones to avoid are the medium output humbuckers as they simply seem to add to the bottom end of the mahogany.So I wouldn't bother with VHII,Emerald, Crawler or even a Nailbomb as that's got a big bass response too even though it's quite high gain.
I wouldn't totally dismiss it but my experience of SG's is the bottom end blooms up quite a bit with certain pickups and the Nailbomb has a lot of bottom and mid range both inherent in an SG.Some SGs will take a Nailbomb perfectly well if they're very bright but on the whole I've found that sub DC8.5K humbuckers sound fantastic,Alnico V powered humbuckers in particular the closer you get to DC8.5K so in this instance if a customer wanted a Mule I'd go with AV over AIV.A Stormy Monday, because the wind is lower and the tone more open, sounds great with AIV.
At the other end of the scale, the high gainers like Miracle Man which is ceramic powered work well as the magnet controls the bass response or Warpig are excellent.Both of these are wound with a very fine gauge wire which keeps the coil size small.........the smaller coil footprint under the strings keeps the tone more focused.
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So you'd have the same problem with a topless Les Paul?
Well that's interesting. No mention about the Black Dogs?
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That's interesting...so even though I use a lower output humbucker it can still give an SG a full sound? I've always been drawn to high output pickups for some odd reason but I guess its because I'm a little scared that low output pickups won't give me a big sound as oppossed to high gain pickups but I am open to new things. Also, as i was going through the different pickups and their specs, I noticed that alot of the pickups that had huge amounts of bass which appealed to me because I'm looking for pickups to beef up my SG. With the vintage pickups, can it get a big crunchy sound and also go to metal?
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So you'd have the same problem with a topless Les Paul?
Exactly! But on a typical Les Paul the maple top adds some brightness and balances out the warmth and bassiness of the mahogany. So Les Pauls seem to work great with just about any humbucker.
I've often wondered if Gibson worked that out right from the start, or whether the top was just there to look good! If it was intentional, whoever came up with that idea was very clever.
Well that's interesting. No mention about the Black Dogs?
I think Black Dogs would generally come under the "avoid" category in SGs, because although there's not much output the pickup has quite a lot of bass/low mids.
I did have a Black Dog in the bridge position of a V, and it sounded fine actually, but (I've said this many times) a bit dark next to the Stormy Monday in the neck position.
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That's interesting...so even though I use a lower output humbucker it can still give an SG a full sound? I've always been drawn to high output pickups for some odd reason but I guess its because I'm a little scared that low output pickups won't give me a big sound as oppossed to high gain pickups but I am open to new things. Also, as i was going through the different pickups and their specs, I noticed that alot of the pickups that had huge amounts of bass which appealed to me because I'm looking for pickups to beef up my SG. With the vintage pickups, can it get a big crunchy sound and also go to metal?
You can definitely get a big sound from lower output pickups in an SG! It's all about letting the amp do its share of the work! I'll leave that for someone else to comment on since I don't gig or play at volume.....
When you talk about pickups with "huge amounts of bass", I'd bear those comments from Tim in mind. The bottom end tends to get mushy/boomy (or "bloom" as Tim says), and once that's happening you can't do much to tighten it back up again.
First time I learned this was putting a DiMarzio Tone Zone in a Gordon-Smith GS2. It sounded horrible, much worse than the stock pickups, and I couldn't understand why. Then years later I put the same pickup in an SG and got exactly the same result. But put a Tone Zone in a brighter/more neutral sounding guitar with a bolt-on neck and it's fine.
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So you'd have the same problem with a topless Les Paul?
Exactly! But on a typical Les Paul the maple top adds some brightness and balances out the warmth and bassiness of the mahogany. So Les Pauls seem to work great with just about any humbucker.
I've often wondered if Gibson worked that out right from the start, or whether the top was just there to look good! If it was intentional, whoever came up with that idea was very clever.
Well that's interesting. No mention about the Black Dogs?
I think Black Dogs would generally come under the "avoid" category in SGs, because although there's not much output the pickup has quite a lot of bass/low mids.
I did have a Black Dog in the bridge position of a V, and it sounded fine actually, but (I've said this many times) a bit dark next to the Stormy Monday in the neck position.
Cool thanks Philly.
I'm just wondering as the SG is relatively cheaper and less used than a Les Paul and it's always been one of those guitars on my list. Never really seemed like a logical choice but now that I'm after a dual bucked axe...
Off Topic: I played a Blacktop Jaguar t the shop today, the finish and everything felt budget and yuck :/
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That's interesting...so even though I use a lower output humbucker it can still give an SG a full sound? I've always been drawn to high output pickups for some odd reason but I guess its because I'm a little scared that low output pickups won't give me a big sound as oppossed to high gain pickups but I am open to new things. Also, as i was going through the different pickups and their specs, I noticed that alot of the pickups that had huge amounts of bass which appealed to me because I'm looking for pickups to beef up my SG. With the vintage pickups, can it get a big crunchy sound and also go to metal?
You can definitely get a big sound from lower output pickups in an SG! It's all about letting the amp do its share of the work! I'll leave that for someone else to comment on since I don't gig or play at volume.....
When you talk about pickups with "huge amounts of bass", I'd bear those comments from Tim in mind. The bottom end tends to get mushy/boomy (or "bloom" as Tim says), and once that's happening you can't do much to tighten it back up again.
First time I learned this was putting a DiMarzio Tone Zone in a Gordon-Smith GS2. It sounded horrible, much worse than the stock pickups, and I couldn't understand why. Then years later I put the same pickup in an SG and got exactly the same result. But put a Tone Zone in a brighter/more neutral sounding guitar with a bolt-on neck and it's fine.
Thanks man, so which pickup would you prefer with the low output your talking about? I'm not sure which one would suit me or where to start haha...
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Thanks man, so which pickup would you prefer with the low output your talking about? I'm not sure which one would suit me or where to start haha...
I was really just talking in general terms about the "low/medium/high output pickups in an SG" concept, but....
For what it's worth, I think Riff Raff is a very good (if obvious) place to start. Think AC/DC, naturally! Both the neck and bridge models are pretty bright, get a calibrated set if that appeals to you (personally I like a warmer/softer sounding neck pickup so next time I get SG pickups I'll probably go with a Riff Raff bridge and Mule neck).
I'd also be interested to try calibrated Mules, but in that case I might go for an alnico V bridge and alnico IV neck. gwEm on the forum has that set in a V:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10437.msg132756#msg132756 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10437.msg132756#msg132756)
Or for a really sweet, low-output vintage tone, Stormy Mondays.
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The RiffRaff bridge is a great pup indeed, with a very nice crunch, but it might not be the best choice IMHO if you want to "beef up" your SG. At least it didn't work for me... Not that it sounded bad in any way, but I couldn't get the low-end growl I was looking for. This being said, it really nailed the "classic" SG crunch tones, so I bet I just have an acquired taste for hotter / warmer bridge pups.
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Oh ok, I think I get it. So in the video "Radiohead - House of Cards (live from the basement)" on YouTube, that tone would be achievable with that warmer setup? Because Ive always preferred natural warmth to toned down muffed-ness
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I appreciate the Riff Raff suggestion but I'm not at all into the AC/DC tone for my SG :) what do you guys think of the Stormy Monday or Mule? For the Contemporary pickups I have my eyes set on the Nailbomb but I want to keep my options open as usual then narrow it down to which one i should choose. I really dig the tone of All Time Low (they used a gibson sg standard along with the SG-X which had 500t but i don't like ceramics) and Four Year Strong so a pickup that can help me achieve the huge crunch tone they achieved will be appreciated! :)
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I appreciate the Riff Raff suggestion but I'm not at all into the AC/DC tone for my SG :) what do you guys think of the Stormy Monday or Mule? For the Contemporary pickups I have my eyes set on the Nailbomb but I want to keep my options open as usual then narrow it down to which one i should choose. I really dig the tone of All Time Low (they used a gibson sg standard along with the SG-X which had 500t but i don't like ceramics) and Four Year Strong so a pickup that can help me achieve the huge crunch tone they achieved will be appreciated! :)
The Mule neck sounds pretty good in my own SG - possibly the best neck bucker I've ever played - but I can't tell about the Mule bridge, except it might possibly be sweeter than the RR. I've heard a couple clips of SM into a SG and they did sound good but in an even sweeter way. YMMV but I don't think they'd give you the "huge crunchy tone" you're after.
Now I don't have any experience with your amp nor any other modern hi-gain amp so I can't tell what would work fine with your rig.
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Thanks man. Do you think you can elaborate by what you mean by "sweeter"? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that lol.
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Less raw, more refined, high end sparkling, juicy etc
Oh, can somebody please tell me what SG Thom Yorke is using in the YouTube Vid "House of Cards - Radiohead (Live at the Basement)"
How can I get that sound?
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Oh, can somebody please tell me what SG Thom Yorke is using in the YouTube Vid "House of Cards - Radiohead (Live at the Basement)"
I didn't watch the whole clip, and I don't know much about Radiohead, but I'd guess that's a '63 to '65 SG Standard (presumably an original, not a reissue!).
I doubt he's the sort of guy to swap pickups, so you'd probably be looking at Stormy Mondays or Mules as the BKP equivalent.
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Hmm okay. So what's the big difference between the Mule and Stormy Mondays? Mules can drive harder and have more note definition? More mids I'm guessing, more versatile?
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I'm just gonna refer you to the product pages. :P They're better than any description I can concoct:
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=vintage&pickup=stormy_monday (http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=vintage&pickup=stormy_monday)
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=vintage&pickup=the_mule (http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=vintage&pickup=the_mule)
They're both PAFs. Stormy Mondays are the "polite" version, Mules a bit hotter and probably more versatile.
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Thanks for the references man. I think the Mule will suit the best for me. Now all I got to do is choose between the Mules and the Alnico Nailbomb :P
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Wow, that's a huge difference haha
But how can you tell if you have a dark sounding guitar? I mean I can tell my Tele is bright because of the way the notes krang out unplugged, but I find that identifying dark guitars is harder... I heard somebody say that the Ibbie RGs are bright but I don't completely agree... I think...
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Thanks for the references man. I think the Mule will suit the best for me. Now all I got to do is choose between the Mules and the Alnico Nailbomb :P
Why choose ? ABomb bridge + Mule neck FTW :twisted:
FWIW, the more I play my SG the more I like the ABomb bridge on it. More bite and less compressed than the Crawler (ok, it's on a somewhat different guitar, but I know how both sound unplugged so I think I'm relatively safe here), rich, clear highs, roaring mids and tight yet powerful - "chunky" might be the word ? - lows. And it manages to stay well defined even under massive gain while still cleaning up beautifully without loosing it's bite. Not an ounce of muddiness, quite on the contrary.
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But how can you tell if you have a dark sounding guitar? I mean I can tell my Tele is bright because of the way the notes krang out unplugged, but I find that identifying dark guitars is harder...
wrt/ my own SG, just comparing it with a couple others (SGs, I mean) made the case quite clear ;)
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Why choose ? ABomb bridge + Mule neck FTW :twisted:
Haha but I'm not sure if they will suit eachother
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Why choose ? ABomb bridge + Mule neck FTW :twisted:
Haha but I'm not sure if they will suit eachother
Well... possibly not the most balanced set when it comes to output levels :lol: - but they match better than you would imagine. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a problem since I tend to use the bridge / middle positions for crunch to massive overdrive and the neck / middle position for pristine clean to bluesy crunch, and I like my drive tone to be louder than the clean one anyway., but YMMV ;)