Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst42 on May 17, 2011, 02:57:05 PM
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OK, I'm pretty much certain I'm giving up chasing my ultimate valve tone on the grounds that I'll only ever achieve it after spending more than my meagre talent warrants and only at gig volumes. I think I'm at a stage where I'll sacrifice a little ultimate tone in return for being able to get a bloody good tone pretty much anywhare I play. Last Sunday I went to band practice with a huge hangover and asked the guys to turn down The other guitarist uses a Line 6 Spider (not even the valve model) and he easily accessed wonderfully saturated distortions while I was struggling. Fair enough, I could tell it was no valve amp but in all honesty, the tone wasn't at all bad. My current rig is this:
Guitar - Marshall DSL401 - Marshall 1960A - Wah - Tuner - Compressor - Distortion - Overdrive - Delay - Chorus - Boost
I was looking at changing the DSL for a JVM 410H (£600 used) for gigs and a small modelling amp for home use (£100 used). This all seems like a lot of gear and a lot of money. I'd now like to just lose all the pedals, or at least as many as possible and use a multi-effects for both effects and amp modelling. I may still use the DSL for some tones but most will be modelled. This way I've got a 4X12 for gigs, a 1X12 for small events and headphones for late practice, home use and recording. I think I've narrowed it down to the RP1000 and HD500, though I'm open to suggestions. My only previous experience of Line 6 was the XT Live which I found to be awful but it sounds like they've made a lot of progress with this HD system. I'd like to know which of these multi-effects would be best for the following requirements:
1) Best amp models. I'm after 4 basic tones here: Clean; light distortion; a kind of hot-rodded Marshall and modern Metal.
2) Which will allow me to get rid of most pedals? I believe the Wah on the RP1000 isn't up to much for instance.
3) Which has the most flexibility in incorporating a real amp (4CM) and external pedals?
4) Is it possible on either of these units to send the amp model I'm using to my own amp and cabinet with no cabinet modelling and at the same time, send the signal to the PA with cabinet modelling turned on?
5) I'd also like the ability to be using a largely clean model and have the ability to kick in distortion for certain parts of the song smoothly and with no delay. I believe I can do that with the RP1000 in pedalboard mode but not sure about the HD500.
If any of you have any experience of these units I'd really appreciate it. I'm hoping to try the Line 6 this weekend and the RP1000 in a couple of weeks time as nobody local seems to stock it.
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Look at the Boss GT8.
That way you can have all the modelling even stick a boost in the loop of it that is switchable on patches and it can also change your amp channels too for when you want real tones
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What about the Egnater/Randall modular stuff? Seems really good to me and you get a lot of varity. For multi effects maybe the Nova System from TC Electronics...
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if u like the jvm sound, that combined with a tc nova system is great, you can change the channel on your amp and effects via midi cable at the same time with a touch of a button. I've tried this combination, the only thing lacking is an expression pedal but you can buy this separately to control wah, delay levels. If I was to get it again I would just buy a separate wah infront of the amp to use. So effectively you'll only need 2 -3 pedals on your board.
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I've tried the GT8 and really didn't like it. The amp models were just far too digital and I didn't find the GT10 significantly better. The Nova System is good but it's also expensive and lacks the amp modelling. I do like the JVM but a 410H to go with my 4X12 will set me back £600 and I'll only be able to use it at band practice and gigs. The tone will be awesome but I have to ask myself if I'm good enough and doing enough with my guitar to warrant this investment. Over the years I've spent a lot of money on guitar gear and I already have more than my talent deserves. I'm tired of chasing that elusive tone only to find it's still compromised in one way or another. I don't want to have a rig for gigs, another one for rehearsal and a third for home use. I want one that will save all that messing around and give me decent tone wherever I am, at whatever volume I want to play at and be easily portable. I reason that if I get one of these units I can record with it, use headphones late at night, plug it into my DSL401 for small stuff and connect the DSL to the 4X12 for bigger stuff. To do all this will cost me between £200 and £300 used and that will be funded by the sale of my existing pedals and pedalboard. That's a lot cheaper than spending £600 on a new amp that I can only use at gigs.
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Maybe you could consider the Orange Thunder 30, cleans and distortion are great on this one and it's not too expensive. Loud enough too.
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A great amp certainly but not materially different to my Marshall in what it can do, though I see I can dial down the power. I just don't see how changing to this amp will take me significantly further forward. I just don't want to carry on throwing this kind of money away to be disappointed. Sure, the tones in a multi-effects system aren't ideal but these days they are very good for the most part and they are very cost effective. I think like many other guitarists, I'm on this merry-go-round of chasing the perfect tone and I'm fed up of the ride and want to get off. I give up some real valve tone for great flexibility and saving some money that I can spend on something else. In the past it's been a price I haven't been prepared to pay but now it is.
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I was thinking you wouldn't like the Boss GT stuff if the POD XT Live didn't grab you. I've got the GT modelling in my Boss recorders but I rarely use it, I'd pick the XT Live before Boss's modelling. Luckily you've tried it though, so you don't need to take my word for it :lol:
The only reason I'm posting though is have you still got the XT Live? I hadn't used mine for a couple of years (except for bass amp modelling), after I got a Vox Tonelab LE. For ages I prefered the Vox.
But a few months back I got myself a couple of home valve amps and I've been flirting with those, and my ears have been changing.
For some reason I started flirting with the the XT Live for guitars again last weekend - and I was stunned. I took some of my old hard won patches (the presets were not much use as far as I was concerned) and I tweaked them a bit further - and at the moment I'm prefering the XT!! :roll:
I always did prefer the XT's effects to the Vox's, but right now it's the Vox that's silent in our house.
So if you've still got the XT - give it another fiddle, you might be pleasantly surprised? I haven't heard the HD stuff at all, but if it is an improvement, I might even be interested in checking it out myself!
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It's good to know I'm not the only one here to think that multi-effects might have some real use :D
I never owned the XT Live, I just tried it in the store. In fact, back to back I tried the XT Live, GT8, Tonelab LE and GNX3000. THe XTL I just didn't like at all, the GT8 was great for effects and nothing else, the Tonelab was superb at doing a Marshall stack but was ineffective for high gain and the GNX was the best overall so I bought the GNX. The problem I found with the GNX was always amplifying it as it was never as good through an amp as it was through headphones. Having said that, it was OK through the effects return of a valve amp (still not as good as real valve tone) and good through a Mackie powered speaker.
I have no illusions I'll notice the difference no matter how good the unit is but I'm not seeking ultimate tone - I'm seeking practicality. 99.9% of the audience won't notice and they're even less likely to care quite honestly. OK, I'll notice but then I think of what else I could do with the £600 minimum I'll save doing this. A Michael Kelly Patriot Custom, a set of Bare Knuckles for it and I still have £100 cash. I think on balance I'd rather do that.
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That's quite interesting, I bought the XT with just cursory fiddle on it in the shop. Partly because I already had a POD 2.0 and could immediately hear I prefered the XT. I then spent approximately two years fiddling with it looking for just breaking up and blues rock tones :lol:. Not too bad I felt, but I barely touched the surface I think.
With the Tonelab, MDV on here had sung it's praises, and it sounded like it did the tones I was after a bit better. So I phoned a shop and told them I wanted to bring my own guitar and headphones and fiddle with it for an hour or so. If it bettered the XT for me, I was buying, if not, no sale. They said OK. So I downloaded the manual, learnt how to use it before I showed up and then started tweaking it in the shop.
It was complete no-brainer for the crunch tones I was after so I bought it. But I'll agree that whenever I've tried to go for more high gain it seems a bit mushy to me... not that I'm a big user of high gain! The XT seems a lot better at that sort of stuff. Both of them though, apart from having a bit of a laugh or experimenting with something I wouldn't usually use, the preset patches are complete @rse!! :lol:
I have to say though - I don't gig anymore, so I've never had to get either of them up to gig volume. I use them almost exclusively through studio monitors or headphones. I have tried them through guitar amps, but I don't really think that's showing them in their best light - the modellor sounds better through the desk and monitors, and the guitar amp sounds better without the modellor attached to it. I did have some success putting the XT into the front of a Vox AC4TV for effects only, turn off the amp/cab stuff - that was quite fun, the stomp boxes, overdrive/distortion etc (which I don't usually go near) came into their own pushing a real amp, and the reverbs/delays/etc sounded just peachy. But although it was fun, it was a bit too much effort for me - I don't really use effects that much.
I think if I was going to try to take a modellor out for gigs, using the amp modelling, I'd be looking at something other than a "guitar amp" to amplify it. This is because I tend to regard the output from a modellor more like the output from a keyboard/synthesiser than the output from a guitar/amp. So I'd want the sound it's generating to be amplified as transparently as possible - and this is not a job for an amplifier designed for guitar in my experience. I'd start looking at amplifiers designed for keyboard players to use as my stage monitor or for backline-only gigs. I know there's another school of thought, get a good valve based power amp and cab - the valve power stage makes the modellor sound more "natural". But I like what I'm getting through my desk at home - why add another colour to it? So I'd be aiming at a keyboard amp or mini pa myself.
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Preferred tonelab to podxt(xt had more, but not always useful or better sounding)
The atomic amps are good for these,
one of best multi effects rigs I have heard was a guy running xt(floorboard one), through powerblock into 2x12 was amazed when went to look what he was using and sounds was getting
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I think if I was going to try to take a modellor out for gigs, using the amp modelling, I'd be looking at something other than a "guitar amp" to amplify it. This is because I tend to regard the output from a modellor more like the output from a keyboard/synthesiser than the output from a guitar/amp. So I'd want the sound it's generating to be amplified as transparently as possible - and this is not a job for an amplifier designed for guitar in my experience. I'd start looking at amplifiers designed for keyboard players to use as my stage monitor or for backline-only gigs. I know there's another school of thought, get a good valve based power amp and cab - the valve power stage makes the modellor sound more "natural". But I like what I'm getting through my desk at home - why add another colour to it? So I'd be aiming at a keyboard amp or mini pa myself.
Yeah, theres quite a difference when you get these modellers up to live volumes - and i do agree that there i see it more as a 'flat' sound like a keyboard.
I have alot of experience with this, and the main thing I miss is the natural compression and harmonic feedback a real guitar amp gives. The modeller definitely has less sustain. Its easy to have the vocals and guitar conflicting for frequency space too - you have to be careful, thats why I now prefer strats (or bright guitars at least) live since its easier to handle with a modeller and a rich live mix. I also think you have to watch the stereo space very carefully, since the sound is no longer coming from a cab at a specific point on stage, but from the whole PA, I think even micing up, having an actual cab on stage is something the audience can hear. Lastly you have to watch out to for splurgey bass on a techno/club type PA which are heavy on the bass, you get this particularly on palm mutes. Its a good idea to add reverb to the modeller signal too, so it sounds more natural.
It can be a difficult balancing act, but I still think modellers are alot more convenient live. I do miss valve-type reaction, and I do miss the plugin and play aspect of using an amp.. but they are a hell of a lot lighter.
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I testes once the Line 6 XT, but on higher stagevolumes it disappears in the mix. Especially on higher notes the overdrives/distortion faded away to quick. It didn't give me really that ampfeel I'm used too. Maybe bec if that it was once en no more, so I must confess I never have experienced much with modelers. Sure there will be players who get fine results with them.
But, my Rockerverb 50 head and 2x12 cab is quite transportable and deliver me all the tones I need on stage.
For really small gigs I take the lightweight Blues Junior III and hook up a Suhr Riot distortion. This unit provides nearly amplike distortion and feel. Designed for in front of clean channels. Oh, and the Blues Junior is pretty loud for a 15-watt valveamp.
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i use a multieffects mostly as a programmable EQ and for my ''centralizing'' needs.
my drive comes from the tube scream + tube preamp. then i re-eq post distortion and use the gt-10 nicely assignable features to have my lead tone crank up the mids, the gain and add a little delay. clean tone is entirely the gt-10's clean presets and compressed as hell as i fingerpick alot.
i like modelers, but for everything but overdrive.
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I don't follow why they're so bad live. Plenty of artists use the Axe FX and while I admit it's far superior to the gear I'm looking at, the principle is the same in that it's not a valve driven preamp. The same might be said of the Marshall JMP-1 I believe and yet that seems to have worked OK. On a more basic level, I'm sure that I read somewhere that Megadeth at some point were using Digitech GSP1101 units for their preamp tones and feeding it through conventional guitar power amp stages. As the GSP1101 is basically a rack version of the RP1000, why would floor units like that be so bad?
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They do fine with a lot of distortion or superclean. They just don't crunch in the way a decent valveamp does. What I found is that the ''breakup-sounds'' were not really happening. For highgain-applications they're ok. If that is wat you're after, a floorunit would be a solution.
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Then I assume that makes the 4CM all the more important so I have the option of using my own amp with a light overdrive.
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I've had only not very successful stints with multieffects (Zoom, Line6 and Boss). I steer clear from them nowadays, as I feel you always spend time trying to dial in the natural feel you know from tube amps, constantly making small changes. I also always felt that when you finally got a good patch in one room, you went to a different room and everything sounded wrong again.
Personally, I have gotten a lot more mileage out of my old JCM900 combo by exchanging the speakers. It really opened up a new world to me. Frankly, the speakers in the 1960A are.... not very desirable. Chances are the DSL401 combo could benefit from a speaker change.
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i recommend something similar to my setup...
I have a 2 channel amp and a tc electronic g-major for all those fx loop effects.. modulations, reverbs, delays etc etc.. the g-major has a relay to switch the amp chan so you set each patch with an amp channel then just switch it all with a single midi foot controller.. very simple and easy.
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i recommend something similar to my setup...
I have a 2 channel amp and a tc electronic g-major for all those fx loop effects.. modulations, reverbs, delays etc etc.. the g-major has a relay to switch the amp chan so you set each patch with an amp channel then just switch it all with a single midi foot controller.. very simple and easy.
Will that still work on a non midi amp?
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Well, it was a nice idea but it seems that it won't work. Lots of people tell me they're fantastic units and they certainly sound good but a chorus of support is not as forthcoming when I ask about playing gigs so I'm inclined to think Alex and Telerocker are right in that it may be more convenient, but will ultimately be frustrating and get lost in the mix live. I was talking to the luthier I use last night and he said exactly the same, pointing out that in his opinion they're simply over-processed and that's why they start to get lost as the volume and space increases. So it looks like I'm back to my original plan of a Marshall JVM. I was thinking that perhaps a 2X12 combo might be the answer but I'm not so sure. Using a head and 4X12 takes up the same floor space as a 2X12 combo; it's just taller and even if I didn't use a 4X12, a head unit and 2X12 cab is going to be easier to carry than a 2X12 combo.
Another reason I was put off the JVM410H was simply the power as the room I practice in is tiny but from what I can gather, the 50w version will be pretty much just as loud anyway but with less headroom and if I go 50w, it has to be the 2 channel version. It's a couple of hundred cheaper used but perhaps the extra couple of channels on the 100w is worth the extra for the greater flexibility. So many choices! Who'd be a guitarist :roll: 8)
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i recommend something similar to my setup...
I have a 2 channel amp and a tc electronic g-major for all those fx loop effects.. modulations, reverbs, delays etc etc.. the g-major has a relay to switch the amp chan so you set each patch with an amp channel then just switch it all with a single midi foot controller.. very simple and easy.
Will that still work on a non midi amp?
my amps not a midi amp. the g-major has a relay built in that you plug into your pedal in on the amp and then the g-major controls the amp's channel
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There is not much volume difference between a 50 & 100w valve amp
However in the case of the JVM i have found the 205h has a lot more bite & aggression to the sound while the 100w sounds rounder but still great.
If you really need 3 channels & something thats portable, can be used at home volume levels, small practice rooms & gigs from small to big without being too loud i have a TSL in the seconds out that i could do a deal on for you!
/shameless plug
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Well, it was a nice idea but it seems that it won't work. Lots of people tell me they're fantastic units and they certainly sound good but a chorus of support is not as forthcoming when I ask about playing gigs so I'm inclined to think Alex and Telerocker are right in that it may be more convenient, but will ultimately be frustrating and get lost in the mix live. I was talking to the luthier I use last night and he said exactly the same, pointing out that in his opinion they're simply over-processed and that's why they start to get lost as the volume and space increases. So it looks like I'm back to my original plan of a Marshall JVM. I was thinking that perhaps a 2X12 combo might be the answer but I'm not so sure. Using a head and 4X12 takes up the same floor space as a 2X12 combo; it's just taller and even if I didn't use a 4X12, a head unit and 2X12 cab is going to be easier to carry than a 2X12 combo.
Another reason I was put off the JVM410H was simply the power as the room I practice in is tiny but from what I can gather, the 50w version will be pretty much just as loud anyway but with less headroom and if I go 50w, it has to be the 2 channel version. It's a couple of hundred cheaper used but perhaps the extra couple of channels on the 100w is worth the extra for the greater flexibility. So many choices! Who'd be a guitarist :roll: 8)
Two things:
First, if you get a 2x12, it MUST be somehow vertical or raised. Your ears are on your head, not your legs! It can make a huge difference in how you hear the sound. Unfortunately, most 2x12" tend to be wide but low, only ENGL makes a vertical one (which is great, btw, but very heavy). 4x12" have the benefit of the two top speakers which project better.
Second, don't worry too much about headroom on a 50-Watt amp. Having had both a 50-Watt JCM900 and a 120 Watt 5150 the differences IMO don't come into play a lot unless you use a seriously downtuned guitar or play very loud. There is some difference, but I personally would rather save the money. I also think - if I remember correctly - that that JVM205 footswitch is programmable and lets you save more than two sounds even on the 2-channel version, making it something like a 2+ channel amp, but I'm not sure about that.
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yeah it's footswitch has 4 presets for 4 sounds. But the clean and crunch have shared gain and EQ. I have a 215C which sounds great through an engl cab but the only great sounding channel are the crunch yellow and red so it's really difficult to get a great crunch sound and have a good clean as well, on this matter the 410H offers more flexibility because clean and crunch are separate channels with separate EQ. But if you're after the zakk sound for instance and you don't want an expensive jcm800 reissue then boost the crunch red and it sounds awesome. As someone said above, midi or relay switching with the gmajor is a great idea. I would def go for 50w as opposed to 100w versions- more economical valve maintenance in the long run.
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Well, I decided it made sense to get the amp sorted out first as that's obviously the heart of the rig. Ideally I'd like a combo that I can then hook up to my 4X12 for larger gigs but most amps on Ebay that seem to appeal are head units and some of them I have no chance to try before the auction ends so I wondered if there was any wisdom here. Here's what I'm looking at so far:
Marshall DSL50
Heard some great things about these in terms of sounds, though sadly this is a head unit. Not the end of the world though. My real concern is that there will be a lag when switching channels like I have on my DSL401 and that's really a pain. They seem to be about £350 - 400
Marshall TSL
I can get one of these either as a combo or head. The combo is £350 and the 100w head is surprisingly cheaper. My concerns are the same as on the DSL with latency issues on the footswitch.
Laney VH100R
A lot of people seem to love these and at £400 it doesn't seem badly priced. Wish they did a combo version.
H & K Switchblade
Really confused about this one. In many ways it's absolutely perfect. It's not ridiculously powerful at 50w, it's a combo, it has 4 channels that seem to cover everything, it has a footswitch that stores everything and it even has effects onboard so I can ditch a few pedals. Hell, with this thing and just a couple of pedals I could forget about multi-effects altogether! The feedback at Harmony Central is excellent and it doesn't seem expensive at a starting price of £450 yet I am still confused. Why? Because searching this forum seemed to bring up a lot of hate towards it and that has made me stop and think.
Engl Thunder 50 Reverb
Looks really nice. Obviously does the heavy stuff well and with 4 channels I imagine it does most other things OK too.
Anyway, there's the choices. Any thoughts?
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They are (near) all different animals. Personally I favour the DSL over the TSL (and the Engl and Laney). But when it comes to versality and good sounds, the Switchblade is hard to beat.
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Now there's a surprise as I read so many negative comments about the Switchblade on here I didn't think anyone would be supporting it. The clips online sound OK to me, though the Engl sounds a lot better. You Tube can be very misleading of course. Both of those appeal because they're combos and I've had so much bad luck keeping a band together I can't help thinking that if this one also folds, a head unit will be useless to me. My other main concern with an amp is will I be able to boost it for solos? This is a concern due to my experiences with my DSL401 as if I use the drive channel, orange or red mode, with the gain set to about 6, the boost pedal I have in the loop has absolutely no effect at all and as a result I have to use a Hardwire distortion pedal through the clean channel for all of my distorted tones. Doing it this way the boost works beautifully. I really want to stop having to do this.
As a result of all this I'd really rather go with a combo if I can and I keep getting drawn to things with two footswitchable master volumes but that's not easy on an affordable combo. I know the DSL is great but it's a pain that it's a head unit and the latency on the channel switching would drive me insane. I love the sound of the Engl but it's a hell of a distance to drive to get it as it's in Brighton and I wonder if I'd be better being patient and waiting for a Screamer to come up. The H & K appeals for its versatility, though I understand the footswitch is fragile so at some point I may need to invest in a different midi controller. I have no idea about such things so I don't know what would be compatible or how much they cost.
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I don't know about footswitch-problems. Test the amp somewhere, then you'll know if you really like it. I heard so many players getting bad sounds out of nice amps. Youtube is not a referencepoint.
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The DSL and TSL don't hold a candle to the JVM IMO. The TSL's suckiness is the reason I stuck with a JCM900 for years and then got a 5150.
The VH100R is the amp I wanted to buy first, but then I played the 5150 and liked that one (a lot) more.
I don't know the ENGL or the H&K you posted.
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Well, I've taken the plunge and just bought a Hughes & Kettner Switchblade 50w combo off Ebay. It cost me £600 which is more than I ideally wanted but it's in mint condition and as it has most of the effects I use built in, I can offset the extra cost through the sale of most of my pedalboard.
I liked the convenience of a multi-effects but ultimately I just couldn't give up on real valve tone completely. OK, so you can argue that the Switchblade has a good chunk of digital technology in it but I still think it sounds more convincing than any amp modeller as it is a proper valve amp, just with digital effects and midi control so I think I'm getting the best of both worlds. I can't wait to get it :)
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Hope it works fine and just experiment a while to get to know all the sounds and features, especially how to eq the channels.
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I think that is an excellent choice!