Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: K-Roll on June 07, 2011, 02:02:35 PM
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Hey guys
haven't been here for quite long. I think I might like to ask for your opinions on my following 'issue':
My bridge humbucker which is currently a painkiller sounds very shrilly/trebbly with my boogie mark 5. So far, it played very well while having owned a 5150 which is primarily a dark amp. It complemented its sound very well but after having gotten a new amp I must say I am in search for a new pickup for the bridge position.
I do not play solos that much and must say i am more 'rhytm'-oriented.. I do a lot of rhytmic work, with various stretched chords where i need quite a lot definition with a bit lesser harshness..
My guitar is a custom made 7 string guitar. I must say it is quite bright sounding due to the fact that it has a wenge top a rosewood plated ebony neck and ebony fretboard, it cuts like a sharp razor in the upper registers.
construction wise its got a solid bridge, mahogany body, wenge top, rosewood/ebony neck, ebony fretboard and a standard 25.5'' scale. this is a quite specific combination, this axe has quite the crisp and brittleness with something quite mahagonesque its hard to explain..
I am looking for some pickup which would not drive this amp way too much as an overkill of juice with a mark is not what you'd want to start with.
sometjing which would still allow good palm mutes when necessary, like something with painkiller's bottom which is definitely not huge or overthrowing but is defined and something with lesser cut in higher frequencies..
I am definitely looking for a rich sounding pickup with nice harmonical overtones, not boxy sounding, with good string defenition (which by nature my guitar does provide) that would compliment the mark 5 quite nicely as it's more of a brighter sounding setup you know. (many guys prefer SD JBs with their boogie marks, but that must be with specific woods/guitars)
I've written to BKP support and the guys there recommended me an alnico V nailbomb. So far I was looking on Holy Diver (which I've heard is not a good choice for mahogany bodied guitars but the tone chart is similar to the one of PK if you compare these), Cold Sweat (but the treble chart tells me to stay away). Ive never really been a huge fan of the nailbomb having owned it previously in a 6string format in different guitar, so I'd just like to get your views before I jump onto it.
Maybe someone has tried some of the 'Vintage Hot' pups in a 7string which i might be overlooking
So far I've come up with following ideas:
Aftermath - too hot for what i need
warpig- too much low end, tends to flub in mahogany evne though it would tame the presence down a bit
cold sweat - chart says its 'scooped' by nature and too trebbly, which i am not sure if i want (but it might sound ok with mark's eq curve)
holy diver - chart seems like a PK but less of everything, alnico 5 is 'softer' than ceramic magnets which would in this case help to lesser the cut, but the usual consensus is that it does not fit mahogany (maybe a 7 string format is different)
nailbomb - usually used in basswood, mostly shred oriented, helps ibanez guitars to play a bit better (at least mine did :) recommended by BKP
from what i've realized over last years, pickups that tend to be more bassy sound as if these were driving an amp less and tend to be farty rather than those oriented towards higher mids/trebbles.. the second thing is that harmonical overtones are as well characterized as higher overtones which means a mid/higher pickup would be better in achieving these.
My mind tells me that the painkiller should be the best pickup in mi guitar but the application seems to be telling the opposite..
I know that in fact, the only way to really find out is to try out one after another and find out what suits best, but that would cost a fortune, so i'd like to narrow it down to some why yes and why not varieties..
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I think the Diver is closest to what you need, but I would the BKP-team ask for advice.
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BKP team said - Nailbomb with alnico hmm
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if you didn't like the nailbomb, you should try something else
but you could be surprised, since it's a different guitar
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if you didn't like the nailbomb, you should try something else
but you could be surprised, since it's a different guitar
+1
The Holy Diver did not work in my Voodoo LP, but fits very nicely in the baritone.
Alternatively some lower output pickups can still deliver the sound very well. I would refer you for example to here (RiffRaff)
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24551.0
and here (Mule)
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23824.0
The Black Dog would help with the top end shrillness.
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A friend of mine has mules in his LP, it's kinda that PAF sound which sounds good with a marshall plexi, but I've got to say it had a little brittleness too being in a LP custom with ebony board.. if I consider the fact that my guitar is even brighter I think this might not work.
I have to admit I was also looking some week ago at the Black Dog now that you pointed it out.. How does it work with brighter 7 string guitars? Are those 7 string formats somehow FQ-adjusted to complement to an extended tuning? Does it get muffled being a lower output or does it stay clear and with a good string definition while being not shrilly? My only concern is that sometimes PAF oriented pickups tend to let the guitar breathe and show its real sound too much, which in some cases like this where you need to shift the EQ spectrum a little could be contradictory..
How is the tracking of the Black Dog, is it a rounder slower sound or is the response fast? I wouldnt like to get an ulra slowly reacting pickup as the boogie tends to show you every single little mistake you do in your playing..
I've narrowed it to the Nailbomb and HD plus still considering a Black Dog if someone could tell a little more about it..
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I have clips of the black dog doing 7 string somewhere... i know roobubba also used a black dog in his wenge baritone..
i'll try to find the links on the bkp forum and get back to ya. i love my black dog. it's in an ash 7 string with maple neck and fretboard. it's my reference pickup!
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the black dog is quite soft unless you set it VERY close to the strings
definitely tends to a slower response rather than a fast response compared to higher output alnico 5 BKPs like the holy diver and nailbomb
setting it high and using any sort of boosting solves it, if doesn't already sound tight in your guitar
but it's not a percussive pickup
just replaced mine with a riff raff
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I have clips of the black dog doing 7 string somewhere... i know roobubba also used a black dog in his wenge baritone..
i'll try to find the links on the bkp forum and get back to ya. i love my black dog. it's in an ash 7 string with maple neck and fretboard. it's my reference pickup!
hey Kev, thanks for reaching out. If you could describe the tracking of this pickup would you say it's one of those 'lazier' ones or 'faster' ones compare to some other (perhaps from the contemporary series) you might have used before?
How is the drive of this pickup did you have to boost your gain by a lot in order to make it sustain more ?
And is it rather smooth sounding or does it according to your opinion have some growl/crunch helping to cut through in the mix? :)
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I found the black dog could cut through the mix very well, and in my guitar (6-string baritone, maple/bubinga/wenge, multiscale, boosted into a 5150), it was also surprisingly tight. I've since swapped it out for an aftermath, and while the BD is clearly not as tight as that, it does have a lovely growly character which I liked, and sparkly cleans.
I had it pretty close to the strings, though. Now I use the AM quite a bit further from the strings, but also boosted into the 5150 with low preamp gain (2/10 or so). Not an apples to apples comparison given the amp and the guitars, though.
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the BD is definitely not clear and tight like the contemporary models, i find however it has a nice growl to it. mine is set close to the strings and i boost with a TS-808 with volume at max and drive at low. it sounds fine for what i'm looking for, vintage flavored tone but with modern playing. i'd say it's rather warm and soft as on clean tones i find that the bridge is very usable!
i've only ever used a cold sweat as far as modern pickups go and i didn,t like it. it's nice sounding, but too modern for me. i like to have the output spike when i bang on the string, and have it low when i play soft. the black dog and vintage/vintage moderns are more dynamic than the contemporary. i suppose you could also say they're ''lazier'' but i don't know about that. i'm a percussive player so usually most pickups sound percussive in my hands XD i'm definitely no example!
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guys, thanks for all your opinions. I must say that I've searched for almost all topics that included 'Black Dog' in order to do some research..
What I actually find quite weird is that some of the guys here consider the BD a darker sounding pickup, whereas some other mentioned that it's brighter and that it actually helped their muddy sounding 'SGs' or whatsoever to come a little bit more to life...that sounds quite contradictory
I've been really considering two options now - Abraxas 7 vs Black Dog7
if you'd have to pick one of these in a 7str. guitar made of mahogany which has quiet a lot of ebony and wenge applied making it more trebbly/edgy/thin in the upper register and you'd want to tame the high end.. and you'd play a boogie mark 5 series amp which is rather 'upper midrange' oriented - which would you choose if you'd like a wide variety of sounds (clean/crunch/heavy rhytm)?
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A mate of mine on the JVM forum has tried loads of Bare Knuckle pickups in his guitars and they're mostly mahogany items. His favourite is the Mule in a Les Paul but he's had lots of other successes. From what I remember, this was how he felt about them:
Black Dog - He liked it in most of his guitars but was a bit too growly for his usual style.
Abraxas - Too dark sounding in a Les Paul but really liked it in his mahogany PRS.
Holydiver - Much the same result actually. He found it too dark in his Les Pauls but loved it when he put it into a slightly brighter mahogany guitar like the PRS.
Emerald - This is the one he's about to install in a few of his guitars but I haven't heard from him yet as to how it is. Certainly the clips on the website and the clips in the players section make it sound stunning so you may want to give that a thought. Others with experience of the Emerald could chime in but I suspect that this is one of Bare Knuckle's often overlooked gems.
Cold Sweat - This is from my own experience of it in a brighter mahogany guitar and I didn't find it scooped at all and I didn't find it to be as bright as the EQ chart suggests.
A-Bomb - I didn't try this in mahogany and I didn't really get on with it at all as it's too much of a 90s Metal sound. I think it would have worked better in a dark Les Paul but obviously others have had great success with it so perhaps it's just me.
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I'll just add this in.
The aftermath isn't actually that high in output terms.
Most SD & dim pickups ive played are far higher.
And i would say its probably just a tiny bit hotter than the nailbomb and considerably less hot than the painkiller.
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The BD is definitely more on the darker side, but it is not overly dark. I have mine set quite high as well, as I've noticed now. IMO ALL Alnico pickups track a bit slower than Ceramic pickups, it's just in their nature to have a bit of a softer onset of the attack when you pick. They do however often fatten up single notes a bit, especially on the treble strings.
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guys, if you were to compare the Black Dog vs Holy Diver vs Crawler in 7 string format. Which one would you think would suit best to a bright sounding mahogany guitar with lots of presence going with a MB mark 5 kind of amp?
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well after quite a lot of time having spent on almost 3 pickups I decided to move on cause I'm still quite unhappy with my sound in general (jeez so much money in gear makes me sleepless knowing somethig's just not ok)
taking a close look at what I had in my 7string in the last 3-4 months I can tell that the holydiver 7 was really an improvement but, as I wanted something tighter I tried a NB7 A5
I think that the biggest factor affecting my sound is the ebony plated pao fero neck with an ebony board whcih causes extended lows, but a scoop in healthy mids leaving me with wiry mids and an upper treble spike in most occasion (just cant get rid of the damn presence damn i shouldn't have gone with so much ebony, its like pulling teeth :) )
Painkiller - overall it sounded OK with most amplifiers like 5150, rectos and marshalls (very tight and articulate string separation which I liked) except for my own - boogie mark 5 which is quite trebly and scratchy in this combination (if i set the amp with less trebles i loose juice, if i set these high the sound gets thin/piercing and shrill), the ceramic magnet even underlined the presence of my guitar which caused piercing saw-like tones.. I liked it's tightness and modern tight firm sound in the low deparment and the amount of mids though. It overpowered the amp input quite a lot and did not create good clean sounds (piercing,thin and crunchy)
Holydiver - almost a perfect match but the low B tended to flub out as the pickup caused the sound to have too much body/bass in the lowest registers (I'd say it was OK on the rest of the string positions but the low B was rounded and undetailed maybe due to the heavy mahog body i dunno) . I liked the fact that it gave my guitar a broader tone and body and it shifted the presence to lower levels which helped but somehow I thought the HD7 suits more to a lighter and more resonant guitar (such as bright PRS guitars with rosewood necks, alder bodied guitars etc.) My guitar weights almost the same as a good LP. I liked that it sounded refined/polished and did not get spikey. but it was still quite hot on the clean channel
Nailbomb A5 - even more bass (bot not body) than with the previously installed HD in my guitar, which was not expected
I have my bass pre EQ at 0 and still, I find it too bass-heavy/ murky (but not a broader and articulate sound), i have to lower the first two GEQ sliders too in order to get a definded sound I have the pickup set really low and if I bring it higher I get more articulation in the upper register but there is even more bass and that certain spike in the presence/trebles. I'd say I get similar wiry mids and shrilly spike as almost with PK but with less detail on chords. I like the fact that is somehow sounds tighter than the HD. It may have sounded a bit too dark on bass strings I'd say. still quite hot on clean channel.. in general it feels like as if I was playing up loud but had to listen more to what i play cause it tends to sink in the band mix
so I wrote to BKP's support and Tim came back with a response I did not quite await:
'' I am going to recommend the Emerald 7 - AV powered, tight with bass response, broad but not spiky mids and sweet highs, plenty of output for rock and metal and will give you a very good range of clean and driven tones. ''
I kinda see his point but having read multiple posts here about the emerald, i'm prone to think it does not suit guitars that tend to get bright or in brights setups in general.. I am quite afraid to go with more 'trebles' you know.. The funny thing is that my guitar sound totally awesome when unplugged but when plugging in, somehow sounds murky in the low deparment but bright and shrilly when moving up to higher positions
Anyone got any ideas if emerald is something you would go for in a 7string format?
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sounds like you should have given the HD more time, I've never experienced it to be flubby but you could have tried 3 things to tighten it- overdrive/boost before your mesa, higher gauge B string and BBE sonic Maximiser in your setup. HD7 sounds the closest to your needs and as you say- 'near perfect'
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yeah, I see what you mean.. the thing is that I already use a higher gauge B string.. mine is a 062 sometimes I use a 064.. but I can definitely tell that the mark series amps usually tend to work better with lower gauges, I dunno why but it's usually that 'body mass' that pushes these amps to get flubby.. as if those amps did not like guitars with massive/broad loads of signal in this case getting lower gauge strings is the way to go, i know, weird but..
I as well tried lowering and raising the pickup but it did not help to achieve what i aimed for.. what I find interesting is that the HD7 sounded best when lowered completely down (as did the NB7) in opposite of most opinions here that it works best when close below strings, but that's just a sidenote..
I used to have a TS808 as a boost with my good old 5150 but I bought the MK5 in order to not to have to use one.. see the MK5 is one of the tightest amps I've owned, to be honest and if I had to use a booster to tighten it up it would be a step back for me, cause I'd do a lot lot more stepdancing, which I already do heh..
I really use all 3 channels quite often and it would get things more complicated :) .. however, i sold my ts808 because I could not hear a difference when it was on and off when I used to have a PK7/MK5 combination, it might be due to the upper mid character of both the pickup and the amp, but as i mentioned a boost is the last way to go
for me at this stage
I've heard Nolly's clip of Emerald7 but honestly? - he's got such skills he could make a beehive filled with dogshiteee look like a luxury mansion in Tuscany and sell it for 2M USD.. The question I should have asked would be - Should I really give the emerald try? If no, would you rather, in my case, go with e.g a crawler 7 in case I'd need to send it back for a swap or would you rather get back to one of those I've already tried?
oh and the BBE sonic maximizer - dont get me wrong, I've had that in the rack form.. I consider it a snake oil for guitar players and i still think it suits to bass players and studio postproduction more than for guitar players where we work with middle frequencies.
It's actually a sound exciter which works close to a 2 band EQ (lows and highs/presence) and what it did with my 5150 is that it caused a great tube amps to sound like a modelling piece-o-cr@p.. don't get me wrong, it really works amazing with 3-band speakers/studio monitors when applied at the final stage where you need to fill in the 'empty spaces' but not in a live situation/rehearsal/guitar gear application.. since my 'renaissance' with it I've converted many BBE users to stop using those things and they're all so thankful now :D:D
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I dont know about the MK5 but i know that the rectifier series NEED a boost for that tight palmmuted rhythm sound- i know it sounds stange considering they're so expensive, but i still believe Mesas arent primarily 100% metal amps. For my rectifier a boost is absolutely necessary (and no need to tapdance as i have it on all the time) because without it, it sounds flubby and loose to me. The boost i have (maxon OD808) also doesnt colour the amps tone but simply helps to focus and tighten it. However a Peavey imo doesnt really need a boost.
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yeap, it's because of their lowmid character.. in order to get a tight response you aim for upper mids and that's why you need to boost a recto, not that it wouldn't have enough gain on tap..a mk5 is already tight enough for must stuff.. usually if people use stomp ODs/drives they go for BB stomps and similar to achieve different overdriven sounds at the 'edge of breakup' etc..
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The Emerald's broad spectrum and tight bass might be the solution for your guitar, it's clear and bright, but not shrill sounding. The Rebell Yell is supposed to be the tighter alnico pup in the range (didn't try it) but may be too bright here.
Reading your story, i would've thought the HolyDiver was the solution...