Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: willo on January 15, 2006, 10:11:52 PM
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Hi all, looking for some advice about playing guitar. Well, not the actual technical side of playing guitar, but more about my mind. Basically, I have seem to have developed a fault - I frequently find myself overplaying when the song doesn't demand it. I either play some kind of slow bluesy type thing, or I'm whizzing all up and down the neck...I can't seem to find the middle ground. And this is despite the fact that I generally dislike players who overplay all the time!
It's like it's some kind of 'mental block', or something, when my brain is just like 'fast...faster...FASTER!!!' and all these ideas are whizzing around, but instead of calming down and playing something that actually means something, I'm just shooting all over the place. Sometimes, it sounds great...sometimes, though, it obviously doesn't.
I know that's a pretty lame description, but I'm struggling to get my head around it too. It's almost as if I'm constantly trying to prove myself - this could be channelled into a really good thing, but sometimes it's not that great. For instance, at an audition this band were like, 'Let's jam over some Curtis Mayfield'. I'm not a great guitarist by any stretch of the imagination, but I have enough chops to handle most rock, blues, metal stuff, and I know my theory enough, and have enough ideas in my head, to easily be able to jam and construct something melodic over a slow jam in 4/4. Instead, I chose to play in a 3/4 polyrhythm :? Of course, when I got home, I thought it was kinda funny, and I still think it was to some degree, but this is costing me...I feel a bit like I'm a fraud, playing from my 'ego' rather than my 'soul', and I'm sure, absolutely certain, that it is costing me my creativity, and opportunities with bands.
Sorry for the length of waffle, I was just wondering if any here has any similar experiences, or any advice?
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Ego-playing is a big problem with a lot of my friends, and a LOT of shredders (that syndrome wen yu go to a jam and everyone's playing different things as fast as they can for ages - _TOM_ you know what i'm talking about :wink: ) . I guess everyone slips into it every once in a while; the way i stop myself from doing is really just stopping and thinking what sounds good, and what i want my playing to sound like, what i'm feeling, and really try to express that through the guitar, forget about anything else, just concentrate on what sounds good and what feels right at the time.
Its all a mentality thing and i feel like a bit of a mindless dope telling yu this stuff like its right, when its not; its just one players approach.
Sorry for my uselessness :lol: - its a hard one to tackle. i guess yu jsut need to stop thinking, let go... let it roll. the thing is - whenever i do this i always just start playing funk :P
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Ego-playing is a big problem with a lot of my friends, and a LOT of shredders (that syndrome wen yu go to a jam and everyone's playing different things as fast as they can for ages - _TOM_ you know what i'm talking about :wink: )
Its the most annoying thing EVER! When people start doing that I put my guitar down and sit down and ignore them till they shut up :lol:
I hate it when I play something and I know it sounds cr@p. I just stop for a bit and think something through in my head and do my best to make it come through on guitar!
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:D Welcome to the club !! :twisted:
This is perhaps the most problematic situation ALL guitarists face......
I wish willo i could give you a simple answer but i can`t. It`s called developing a " Vocabulary" it`s beyond dout the hardest part of being a player.......
I`ve been playing now for over 20yrs mate & i still don`t have one !!! :twisted:
I`ve found that for me the easiest way is to try & find a melody to play. This is what great players like Lukather & Schon do, it`s worked all right for them ! :P
But even now i find myself "Speed" playing through every thing. It`s also a smoke screen to help hide the fact that most players don`t have much of a "Vocabulary"......If you play fast it`ll impress the band your auditioning for kinda theory....This is why i prefer to Pre-work out my solos rather than Jam them.
:D 8)
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The advice I was given, which seems to hold true, is to equate what you are playing to a conversation ( or perhaps a monologue if you are playing a solo) and make sure that what you are saying is relevant, not too longwinded and isn't a gabble of meaningless words that are there just for the sake of filling space. Now if I could actually do it that would be a fine thing but I live in hope.
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Speed isn't a problem for me, I can play as slow or as fast as I like, its just moving around the neck and getting out of the pentatonic boxes :(
Andy!
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Listen to Larry Carlton and Robben Ford, oh and Warren Haynes.
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Year ago I was told by an Irish sessions fiddle player that he dreaded new guitarists turning up to the session as they couldn't follow key changes and wanted to play long solos all the time when it was the fiddler's turn or the melodian players turn. He said if you think you are in a band you have to think as one unit rather than as showing your'e the best and most technically proficient. Maybe that attitude is correct.
I wouldn't know myself, as te last band I was in was 15 years ago and ended in fights and tears and me putting the guitar in a cupboard for 14 years :D
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yep,
i'll second the vocab building approach to the playing. my background is a bit different to a lot of the guys here (i don't play fast - more of a vibrato player) insofaras i come from a reggae/funk/country mentality. in each of these genres, (apart from perhaps country :)), emphasis is placed on feel and space, rather than fill and pace. i'm not saying that i've nailed it in any way, just that i concur with the building up of the vocabulary argument (i sometimes liken it to the same ways that in kung-fu, the same basic moves are combined to form 'super moves' - meaning that you perhaps only have 8-10 'original' figures but combine and mix them to suit the demands of the section that you are dealing with).
i'm sure that all sounds very farty but it works for me ;)
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Just have a few drinks before you play or something - if you loosen up and relax you start to get a feel for the music more.
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Just have a few drinks before you play or something - if you loosen up and relax you start to get a feel for the music more.
Not a bad idea there actually - i always play better drunk (well - to a point. not out of ur head, but merry)
+1 on that :D
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I find it the total opposite about having a beer and playing, even if i have just 1 beer I find it almost impossible to play!
That overplaying thing I find it good to listen to and aspire to play like the shredders who don't overplay. For example Blues Saraceno, George Lynch, Marty Friedman are all very interesting players who rarely play 100 miles an hour. But if you listen to Michael angelo Batio, John Petrucci, Malmsteen and say Rusty Cooley (who is the worst case of this lol) youre gonna end up playing 3 not per string scales over and over, good luck!
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I've always found myself wondering how long somebody plans to blast an endless stream of notes at a jam session before. I think some people don't practice when to *not* play, because a lot of their practice is un-accompanied, and they can't hear what's happening when they're not playing so it just sounds empty.
But I think like many things practice is the best thing for it.
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I find it the total opposite about having a beer and playing, even if i have just 1 beer I find it almost impossible to play!
I think this is really the case with most people, but the other effect of beer is that it makes you *think* you are playing better, even if you are not :wink:
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I find it the total opposite about having a beer and playing, even if i have just 1 beer I find it almost impossible to play!
I think this is really the case with most people, but the other effect of beer is that it makes you *think* you are playing better, even if you are not :wink:
hmm that would probably explain a few things :?
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hi,
chop a couple of your fingers off-that'll slow yer down a bit...hahaha....
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There apparently was a guy in the late 1970's who cut a finger off on stage as part of his, erm, "act". A short term career move methinks and how would he have held the knife when he started on his other hand( get a roadie to do it I suppose).
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don't have a name, do you? i never heard of it, but stuff like that's 'interesting'....wonder what he's doing now....could be living rough wishing he'd never cut that finger off in the 70's
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No sorry I remember hearing about it. I think he only did it once in the end.
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hi,
chop a couple of your fingers off-that'll slow yer down a bit...hahaha....
didnt slow django did it?!? :wink:
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yeah, well we're not all up to django standard, are we? i reckon a couple of digits would slow 99% of us right down!
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When you next go to take a non-metal solo, try to concentrate on playing a hook as your very first line. I.e. a catchy, memorable phrase, which would be suitable as a base to build a solo from, or to keep refering back to.
Then if you really want to slow down, concentrate on playing a hook as your second line........and your third........etc!
It would be very difficult to shred a good hook.
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I find it the total opposite about having a beer and playing, even if i have just 1 beer I find it almost impossible to play!
I think this is really the case with most people, but the other effect of beer is that it makes you *think* you are playing better, even if you are not :wink:
hmm that would probably explain a few things :?
The entirety of Neil Young's album "Tonight's The Night" was recorded while jamming the songs after drinking more tequila than is strictly good for you. The band thought that they were just rehersing new material but unbeknown to them Neil had the sound engineer record everything that was played. You can tell they were sozzled; missed notes, fluft harmonies, forgotten lyrics, technically they were shocking. But an amazingly emotive performance. You can feel the emotion oozing out of the speakers, such feeling.
*Rahnooo*
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But if you listen to Michael angelo Batio, John Petrucci, Malmsteen and say Rusty Cooley (who is the worst case of this lol) youre gonna end up playing 3 not per string scales over and over, good luck!
I almost agree with that. Except for John Petrucci.
Petrucci's playing has, in fact, encouraged me to go the other way, and made think about constructing real - but still technical - melodies in my solos, rather than to just pour out buckets of cr@p, meaningless shred. Listen to, for instance, Overture 1928 by Dream Theater to get an idea of what i'm talking about.
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Another thought...
As helpful as scales may seem in constructing solos, I think that they are the sole reason that this 'overplaying' business exists. I think that the main problem is, that people have got hooks and melodies and ideas in their head, but don't know how to play them, so they resort to bumming around in box shapes, not sounding anything like they would want it to.
Try this:
Forget about scales for a minute.
Think about a melodic solo - not one you made up, someone elses' - and try to work it out from your knowledge of intervals.
From learning piano and extensive amounts of theory, I know a little trick that helps you to hear intervals, and, eventually work out complicated melodies by ear:
1st (C-C): The notes sound the same (duh!)
2nd (C-D): Sounds like the start of a major scale
3rd (C-E): Play E then C, sounds like a doorbell (ding dong)
4th (C-F): First 2 notes of the 'Star Wars' theme
5th (C-G): ? It's pretty recognisable anyway
6th (C-A): First 2 notes of 'My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean'
7th (C-B): Sounds like almost an octave. yuk
Octave: (C-next C) Immigrant song (Zep)
After you've practiced recognising these, you'll start to notice the 'in-between' intervals, like minor 3rds and dim 5ths (tritones), and this skill will become automatic, you won't need to think about doorbells or anything, you'll instantly recognise the sound and be able to play it.
To practice, work out little well-known tunes (National anthem, The simpsons, etc.) and sing each interval to your self many times until you can recognise which one it is, then play it.
Good Luck, and have patience :D !
Muz :D
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Another thing that helps with scale boxes is to learn the major and minor chord triads accross the neck and their relationship to the scale boxes - if nothing else knowing the triads in root, first and second inversion give you somewhere safe to go when you leave the box and they also help you shift your solo when a chord change occurs.
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Following on from that quote from the Irish fiddle player there...
My Grandfather was and all-Ireland fiddle Champion in his younger day (yup, An Fleadh Ceol, Ireland's musical Olympics), but as well as this he was a champion Lilter. Now, for those that have never heard of this, frankly bizarre, musical discipline, it's basically Irish "scat" singing. It's why idiots call the old Trad "Diddly Dee" music.
Now, the point. While Granda could, and occasionally did, shower out whole screeds of notes when the notion took him, he preferred a slightly laid back style. Essentially, he didn't like to play anything either too fast or too complex to lilt. I suppose it was his way of putting it, that it was better to find a melody catchy enough to sing rather than just flashing his bow madskills.
So, the point. Listen to what you play, maybe record it and try to whistle or even lilt along. Work on getting yourself into that mindset. There's two things in it that help. Flashy Leaping about tires the voice quicker, and you have to breathe (and as such, let te music do the same). It's been part of my routine for years (although I'm not that great a player, so you can feel free to ignore everything I've typed).
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After soaking in what everyones said here about overplaying (something i do far too often) i went and did a bit of jamming.
This is a bit into it...
http://www.neom.ca/lugerman/Adam%20-%20Jam%20in%20E%2026Jan07%20-%20Cut.mp3
I'm veeeeeery new to jamming and such, but would you say im overplaying too much here? sorry for the sloppy playing, it's freezing here :lol:
Oh and is the tone any good? it's all Amplitube 'cause my real amps broken. heheh :)
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1st (C-C): The notes sound the same (duh!)
2nd (C-D): Sounds like the start of a major scale
3rd (C-E): Play E then C, sounds like a doorbell (ding dong)
4th (C-F): First 2 notes of the 'Star Wars' theme
5th (C-G): ? It's pretty recognisable anyway
6th (C-A): First 2 notes of 'My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean'
7th (C-B): Sounds like almost an octave. yuk
Octave: (C-next C) Immigrant song (Zep)
What a good way to remember intervals! I'm gonna try this tonight.
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1st (C-C): The notes sound the same (duh!)
2nd (C-D): Sounds like the start of a major scale
3rd (C-E): Play E then C, sounds like a doorbell (ding dong)
4th (C-F): First 2 notes of the 'Star Wars' theme
5th (C-G): ? It's pretty recognisable anyway
6th (C-A): First 2 notes of 'My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean'
7th (C-B): Sounds like almost an octave. yuk
Octave: (C-next C) Immigrant song (Zep)
What a good way to remember intervals! I'm gonna try this tonight.
It can be EXTREMELY helpful.
Sometimes I get my parents and sisters to name me a tune, and through lots of practice of singing each interval and umming and ahing about which one it should be, I get it right at full speed ALMOST everytime.
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Now, the point. While Granda could, and occasionally did, shower out whole screeds of notes when the notion took him, he preferred a slightly laid back style. Essentially, he didn't like to play anything either too fast or too complex to lilt. I suppose it was his way of putting it, that it was better to find a melody catchy enough to sing rather than just flashing his bow madskills.
Just to pickup on that, most of the 'tasteful' players almost always mention being able to sing their guitar lones. It's not to say that that don't break loose, but when they do it's definately much more memorable.
Rob...
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Yes sir! Hold back on them reins, hold back on them reins, and when the time comes smack that pony on the ass and let him take the bit in his mouth to run.
Translation:
Let the band play and play along melodically and lyrically, the mad solo skill can come into play when the band has little else to say.
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this is why i think it's good for people who are into shred to join a funk band or a classic rock band.. it's funny how many complete shred heads can't play a decent tune..
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this is why i think it's good for people who are into shred to join a funk band or a classic rock band.. it's funny how many complete shred heads can't play a decent tune..
+1 Very true. Funk is a very percussive style rhythm playing.
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+2. It's important to have solid rhythm skills and an ear for the rhythm of a piece before you start shredding, otherwise you'll just go in and out of time all over the place and piss off the rest of the band :D
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In my new band, we play somewhere between Muse/Radiohead/Sonic Youth, and we've just got this new bassist in. And both me and the bassist love funk and improvising - no-one else in the band does though!
And so now, everytime a song finishes - you know what its like, guitar in your hands its impossible not to play - so I'll usually end up playing some hanging, funk-style 7th chord, and away we'll go on a funk odyssey. Not sure the other guys really dig it though!
I guess this is overplaying in a different sense to how I started this thread!