Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Olivier on July 10, 2011, 04:07:40 PM
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Is it true that I spended 240€ for nothing?
The situation is that I bought BKP aftermath for the bridge and a Cold sweat for the neck. And they're at the moment installed in my LTD H-1001(mahogny body). Which means that I replaced my EMG 81/85.
At the very first day I got my guitar back from my local musicshop I tryed my guitar.
I was fairly impressed how define and dynamic they were compared to EMG. The tightness was alright.
It was okey until now. My band is recording our first promotionalbum, But I cant use my guitar because it wont cut through the other guitar with EMG 81/85... My guitar is lacking gain and mid, its blurry compared to the EMG.
The wiring is right (at least what sevenstring.org said)
Could this problem be directed to the pickup/pole height?
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It depends on your type of music and amp, versus the other guitarist?
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It depends on your type of music and amp, versus the other guitarist?
We are playing progressive deathcore, and that reminds me of that my pickups cant handle "chuggs" like breakdown chuggs. Doesnt get that right chuggy sound.
We're running through an peavey valveking head and a peavey cabinet.
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You have to fiddle with your amp's EQ settings when you switch from EMGs to the Aftermath...
and a decent amp/cab would definitely help too, honestly
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I hesitate to ask...... but since it's replacing EMGs did they definitely replace the 25k pots with 500k ones?
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Hi,
you did state that the wiring is OK, but just to make sure: did you also replace the pots?
Fiddle with the pickup height, BKPs are very sensitive to that.
EDIT: Phil beat me to it.
-Zaned
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Dude, the 5 pages of your same thread at ss.org should have clarified your questions, but I'll summarize the responses just for the rest of the people, so they don't waste their time.
- There's nothing wrong with the pickups/wiring
- Play with the pickup height.
- Buy a new amp
- If the EMGs work better for tracking to you, USE the EMGs.
- Acquire a better taste in tone.
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They did clarified and help me alot. But still, it was 5 pages with complaints on the tone (which was a test tone, to compare the guitars/pups against eachother), and people started to focuse more on the tone instead of my problem.
I should have turned to the BKP forum first, better and more polite answers.
Anyway, the pots are changed to 500k.
Are there any standars for the pickup height to start with? And ive been thinking of changing the pole height, if that is necessary?
I have used the EMGs to record with, but now we're on the solo guitars. And I want to use my cold sweat.
I'm 17 years old and money is a problem. Been saving up for a Axe FX or a ENGL fireball/powerball for some time now, think I can aquire it in november.
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You have to understand going from EMGS to passives of any kind.
You WILL have to increase your gain to get the same levels.
your mids should not be an issue though as the AM is way middier than any of the emgs.
if you read the sheet that came with the BKPs it recommends pickup height etc
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A height of 2-3mm, when the string is pressed at the last fret, is a good starting point. Do the top E and bottom E to get an overall height, and then adjust a little if required.
I'd leave the polepieces for now, it's a more subtle difference you can look into once you've got the overall height right.
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Thanks for all the great replies.
Is it possible that the Peavey Valveking is not enough? I mean, we're running on the same amp. So what seems enough gain for the other guitarist (Think its like 6/10 or something) is not enough for me?
But... We did notice that the gain knob didn't change so much. I don't know about that.
I'm changing my strings now, going to change string height and pickup height. It should be a big difference on the sound. Going from 0.72-0.13 to 0.62 I think.
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closer to the strings you will get a bit more oomph but too close and things will get a bit rough sounding.
I think your situation is simply the EMGs your other gutiarist is using are pushing the amp harder.
are you running the VK with an overdrive?
If not i highly recommend it. It will make things a heck of a lot tighter and get you that extra output you seem to need
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Explain your oomph and rough please!
No, just amp->cabinet.
I'm getting an maxon od 808 later on, but ENGL fireball/Axe FX first.
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Try different things with the height, both extremes really. It has so much influence on the tone. I noticed it heavily in the bass side of my bridge Rebell Yell. Within one screw turn it felt like the bass response went from pop punk over classic rock to heavy metal, tone and feel wise.
You may get more power when you are close to the strings, but maybe you like the tone of the farther away setting better. So toy with that and maybe get a nice overdrive pedal (they can be fairly cheap), cause I recon that your problems are, as stated here before, are more related to the fact that you are now using a passive PU. I am absolutly certain that once you made that transition work, you will love the BKPs.
You just switched from a Toyota Corolla to a Ferrari. Totally different feel, but after a few near crashes you´ll adjust and rock that shite and everyones gonna be like: HOLY shite, that is amazing.
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I take the liberty of posting your BKP test clip here.
http://soundcloud.com/oliviergus/bkp-test (http://soundcloud.com/oliviergus/bkp-test)
I don't own the Aftermath, but it sounds healthy. But the CS, did you get that one sorted out? Because in the clip, the neck pickup sounds weird..
-Zaned
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The CS is the same... Still.
What could possibly be wrong?
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I think that there is something out of phase there! have your wiring checked and follow the BKP wiring sketch!
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We cannot rule out the possibility of the pickup being actually broken. Have you tapped to polepieces with a screwdriver? While connected to the amp, just to check that both coils are working like they should.
And make sure that you pickup selector is also working like it should. With the forementioned screwdriver, test each of the 3 positions on the pickup switch.
-Zaned
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Did just tap the polepieces, all of them work. Tested the pickup selector, and it works.
What means "out of phase" I have no idea of electronic terms.
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Out of phase means you might have confused some wires and attached them wrongly, making the pickup out of phase. I think it's unlikely. I think you just need to add some more gain. Bareknuckles are clearer and cleaner than many other pickups. And keep messing with the height, small differences can make a big difference. I found the Nailbomb sounds better if it is not too high, but quite low, the Holy Diver on the other hand sounds better rather high.
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I listened to your sound demo, the aftermath sounds pretty healthy to me, but the amp and tone settings are complete cr@p, sorry it's true. I recommend that you test your guitar with a better amp and try to play around with the tone and gain. An ibanez TS9 overdrive will work wonders for your tone.
Also there's something definitely wrong with the neck pickup. I can hear it phase shifting all over the place, get your wiring/pots checked by a professional.
Good luck!.
PS: 17 and you're getting an axefx?... shite when I was 17 I played a 40y/o acoustic guitar and had barely enough money to pay for public transportation LOL.
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yeah listened to the clip and it sounds like its working . you obviously just don't like the tone of the AM's .its not the best tone in the world but it sounds in the ball park of some of the AM demo's I've heard . its got the bright,agressive mid, metallic chunk I hear on all the AM demos
sometimes gear you lust over turns out not to be your bag and you move on . Good thing about buying quality gear is the resale is usually not that far what you paid for it and you get a good chunk of the $ spent back
like someone else said . If you like the EMG tone and its working for you thats what you should be using .this comment speaks volumes "Doesnt get that right chuggy sound" . Its a totally different PU set up. If the EMG is the "right "sound then its for you
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Before going over the entire wiring, I would just wire that neck pickup straigth to the output jack. Just to see that it's working.
If it sound normal then, the problem is in the wiring. If not, the pickup is faulty. I've had one.
-Zaned
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I just cant get the chugg sound out of the peavey valveking.. And yeah the tone is cr@p, the recordings did barely take one minute. Presets...
I'm going for a new amp first, then a maxon od 808.
However, I'm working to get an axe fx/engl, saving up all the money I can get.
And this is hilarious, it was a "professional" that made the installation of the pickups.
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A boost would do you more good at this point.
Even something cheap like a digitech bad monkey that will cost about £20 will make the world of difference to your tone and help you get that chug
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I just cant get the chugg sound out of the peavey valveking.. And yeah the tone is cr@p, the recordings did barely take one minute. Presets...
I'm going for a new amp first, then a maxon od 808.
However, I'm working to get an axe fx/engl, saving up all the money I can get.
And this is hilarious, it was a "professional" that made the installation of the pickups.
Or you could just go back and use EMG's again. Thats alot cheaper.
Seriously, if thats what makes your day, then stick with it. Dont change your whole setup just for the reason to tell people that you use BKP's.
I got two guitars with emg-81's in them. I have a guitar with a bill lawrence 500 too. I use these guitars for diffrent things. If you want "brutal" deathcore EMG chunk, then stay with them.
Sell the aftermath to me.. cheap :)
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And this is hilarious, it was a "professional" that made the installation of the pickups.
Like I said, test that neck pickup. If some component is broken, it won't matter how professional the wiring job is. Testing the neck pickup straight to the output jack would confirm whether it works or not. If not, then you have to return it and get it fixed under warranty.
-Zaned
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I hate to be predictable here, but maybe a War Pig would have suited you better, if you wanted more chug. Maybe a miracle man.
I can easily imagine this was another case of a bunch of internet superhero know-it-all tw@t-bags that have never even been within 5 miles of a BKP recommending our 17-year old friend here an Aftermath because it's "best 4 teh djentz" and whatnot. On this forum, people are really good at advising people on what they think will be best for them, because you lot actually listen to what the guys coming here for advice are saying in the first place. On lots of other forums, however, the opposite seems to be the case. It doesn't help either that this whole progressive metalcore movement and scene is a little too fashion- and trend-driven for it's own good. That a certain way of dressing or doing your hair is de rigeur and popular I can live with, but everyone wanting AxeFX's and BKP's and whatever just because it's trendy is just silly.
To the clip, I will say that I actually think the bridge pickup tone is quite good, considering it's done through an amp as utterly hopeless as a Valveking. But I completely agree the Neck sounds REALLY weird. It may be defective, it may be wired up wrong, I don't know. But let me just say, that no human is perfect. BKP's are handmade, so while I've never ever heard of it happening up until now, it CAN happen that a pickup is defective. That said, so-called "professional" techs can make mistakes too, trust me!
For instance, when I changed the C-pig in Madsakre's trusty RGD320 to a Painkiller, I found the most ridiculously obtuse crow's nest of wires I have EVER seen, and the whole installation was done in such a head-scratchingly backwards sort of way I nearly wept at the fact that Mads had actually PAID someone to make such an abject mess out of his guitar. And that was done in one the most well-established stores in Scandinavia!
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But okay, enough ranting from me now. Some actualy answers for the OP:
- First off, the AM is a passive pickup, and a really good one. You've gone over to it from active EMG's, so of course they'll behave differently. In short: You're in with the grown-ups now, so you'll have to adjust accordingly. Passive pickups react much more naturally to your picking attack, so if you have a feather-touch right hand you won't get the optimum result from them. So either go back to EMG's or other actives, or be a man and work on your picking attack. The latter option will do you much more good in the long run. No amount of fancy gear will make you sound brutal and heavy if you play like a 9-year old girl that's afraid the guitar will bite you.
- String gauges. Consider thicker strings. You'll thank me later.
- Speaker Cabs. Are you sure the cab you're using is up to snuff? The VK Heads are decent enough, but the VK cabs are useless, at best!
- Seriously, a tubescreamer in front of your amp will work wonders.
- Practice harder. You're 17. No one ever sounds good at that age, so just practice your arse, and give the gear-buying a rest for a few years. As I said before, sounding good is not something you can buy. At least not completely, just partially!
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- Stop listening to deathcore. cut off your hair, get some muscles and play grindcore xD
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I just cant get the chugg sound out of the peavey valveking..
ummmmm... since so far a lot points towards the pups being alright, you know, your problem might just be at that end of the chain. Not to beat on the valveking but I doubt you will get the same roar a 6505 head or rectum-fryer or the ground-shaking oomph a vh4 can deliver at about a tenth of the price.
I would try your amp through a much better quality 2x12 or oversized 2x12 (for saving money and portability) or 4x12 (if affordable and feasible for you) first; then slam an OD808 in front of it but this will give you more mids and might just not work with a ValveKing. It works so well with the 6505 and rectum-fryer because they already have insane amounts of low-end boom. Ultimately try a different amp and see how that works.
All this, of course, considering your pups and installation are actually OK and you could not fix it with proper EQ adjustment.
Another idea: how long are your cable runs from guitar through FX into the amp, all together on total? Are you above 15, 20, 30 feet? Active pickups will practically make cable length non-relevant; when switching to passive pups, 30+ feet will kill a LOT of tone, no matter what voodoo was applied to the cable. A quality buffer or much shorter cable runs will remedy this.
Also, what amp is the other guitarist playing?
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Having played various different BKP's that i absolutely LOVED and found to be head and shoulder above any EMG, I wanted to take a chance on a pair of they very high output "warpig alnico".
As apposed to every other BKP I was dissapointed... it lacked clarity and mids, and in a way didnt cut through.. like you experienced.
My theory is that the extremy output is too much and the tone suffers.
'Im sure if you put in a set og Nailbombs or Painkillers you will be more than satisfied.
I play Doom metal... with a very metal'ish tone.. no rock here. So for me the Warpigs might have seemed ideal.. they absolutely werent. They pushed too much bass, it would mess up the tone. I think you might have the same problem.
EMG's absolutely sucks compared to the right pair of BKP's in the right guitar.
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Having played various different BKP's that i absolutely LOVED and found to be head and shoulder above any EMG, I wanted to take a chance on a pair of they very high output "warpig alnico".
As apposed to every other BKP I was dissapointed... it lacked clarity and mids, and in a way didnt cut through.. like you experienced.
My theory is that the extremy output is too much and the tone suffers.
'Im sure if you put in a set og Nailbombs or Painkillers you will be more than satisfied.
I play Doom metal... with a very metal'ish tone.. no rock here. So for me the Warpigs might have seemed ideal.. they absolutely werent. They pushed too much bass, it would mess up the tone. I think you might have the same problem.
EMG's absolutely sucks compared to the right pair of BKP's in the right guitar.
That just goes to prove that everyone's hands are screwed on differently :lol:
The Pig is my no. 1 favorite pickup, and it just works for me. Moral is; Get what works for you, no matter what that may be. Something that others say is good may not be good for you.
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I wanted to take a chance on a pair of they very high output "warpig alnico".
As apposed to every other BKP I was dissapointed... it lacked clarity and mids, and in a way didnt cut through.. like you experienced.
They pushed too much bass, it would mess up the tone. I think you might have the same problem.
My A-Pig sounded a little lake luster in my SG, but blows sh*t up in my charvel.
I learned you cant just throw any pickup in any guitar. You need to do some homework on each component you have and see what you can do to find "your sound".
Actives are a little more forgiving as compared to passives. Passives work with the material/construction of your guitar, whereas actives can be put in a baseball bat and sound almost the same.
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A boost would do you more good at this point.
Even something cheap like a digitech bad monkey that will cost about £20 will make the world of difference to your tone and help you get that chug
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Also raise the screw poles near the bridge and get them ~3mm from the strings. That will brighten the pickup and increase the high mid cut and punch and make it *more similar* to (NOT the same as) an 81.
Or, you just dont like it
Its not a crime. I love my Aftermaths, I love my 81s, but if youre expecting one to sound just like the other, it aint happening. The AM is a thicker, throatier, growlier, looser, lower output, but smoother, more dynamic and fuller sounding pickup than the 81. It also responds more strongly to the guitar its in (81s do as well, rather a lot, contrary to popular belief, but the aftermath does far more so: the guitar-pickup match up with BKs is more important than the pickup itself, in my experience, maybe its not right for that guitar).
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Gosh, so many answers. I'm trying to answer the most of them. The posts here have been very helpful tho, so thank you for that.
Its true that I got recommended the aftermath, both by peeps on forum. AND by Tim.
And of course I did some research, trying to watch videos with these pickups, looking for clips that people have done,
and I liked it.
Its just my guitar->cable 6m->valveking. BTW, we did found out that one valve was broken in the valveking, the first one. So we switched out the last valve, with the first valve. Then it sounded quite better, but still not that aggressive chugging. Could one broken valve be the problem?
And alot of people here is saying that I should get a OD/booster pedal, and yes I want one. But my priority is a new amp at the moment. Think that is more important. And since i'm 17 years old, money is a problem. Can't just go and buy a ENGL fireball+maxon od 808.
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a boss overdrive is also awesome as hell. and its not that expensive. and nothings wrong with ibanez tubescreamers either
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Its just my guitar->cable 6m->valveking. BTW, we did found out that one valve was broken in the valveking, the first one. So we switched out the last valve, with the first valve. Then it sounded quite better, but still not that aggressive chugging. Could one broken valve be the problem?
It might not be "THE" problem, but a broken V1 preamp valve certainly doesn't help, whatever the guitare / pup / amp / tone / playing style... Hey, it's your amp's first gain stage...
And alot of people here is saying that I should get a OD/booster pedal, and yes I want one. But my priority is a new amp at the moment. Think that is more important. And since i'm 17 years old, money is a problem. Can't just go and buy a ENGL fireball+maxon od 808.
You can get a very decent OD for about 30 to 50€ (these are very simple circuits and the more expensive components are the box, switch and jacks), and I can confirm that pushing your amp's front harder with a cranked (volume, not drive) OD is more otfen than not the not-so-secret receipe for great tones - you just have to make sure the OD and amp play well together.
Now as someone else here already mentionned, it might just be that this pickup doesn't match your guitar, fingers and tastes. Just make sure you try it with the right gear (a *working* amp and a decent OD) AND settings (took me a few days to find the right settings on my amp / ODs when I swapped my SG's bridge for a ABomb).
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The valveking I tried was a mushy mess. Try it through other amps and see what happens.
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I appreciate you telling about some decent ODs, but i'm sticking to my theory. Buy things that you know is good for you, so you won't have to spend like 40€ first, then try to sell it to buy a new one for 100€. Buy the real deal first, especially when talking about sound.
Thats my experience about that.
I got the same impression of the valveking... A muddy thing
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I appreciate you telling about some decent ODs, but i'm sticking to my theory. Buy things that you know is good for you, so you won't have to spend like 40€ first, then try to sell it to buy a new one for 100€. Buy the real deal first, especially when talking about sound.
Thats my experience about that.
Yeps, but the point here is that a 100€ OD isn't necessarily any better than a 40€ one. Specially a 100€ new vs a 40€ second hand ;)
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I appreciate you telling about some decent ODs, but i'm sticking to my theory. Buy things that you know is good for you, so you won't have to spend like 40€ first, then try to sell it to buy a new one for 100€. Buy the real deal first, especially when talking about sound.
Thats my experience about that.
I got the same impression of the valveking... A muddy thing
Maybe you have a mate that's willing to lend you a pedal or amp head for a few hours so you can see how well it works?
I've had similar opinions about gear, and, I feel a lot better surrounded by boxes of shitety pedals and a beat-up, second hand heads than I do with the shiny thing I've been drooling after for so long (it's always disappointing).
Then again, I'm into stoner doom and think anything will sound good with an EHX Bass Big Muff strapped to it, so this last opinion may not sit well with you.
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I don't understand why everybody is discussing new gear if two pieces of his gear are obviously broken.
1. If a tube is broken switch it out. Your amp will never sound the way it should with a broken tube.
2. The neck pickup sounds out-of-phase. No matter how professional the guy is who installed your pickups, something is wrong with either the wiring or the pickup itself. Get this fixed, as well. You could start by telling how it is wired right now. It should be black to ground (soldered to pot-casing), green and white soldered together and red to the switch or input of a pot. (standard wiring without coil-tapping, parallel etc)
That's why I learned how to wire my guitars myself. If something goes wrong, I won't have spent any money on a faulty job. ;)
Re-evaluate your sound after you got all this fixed. Then play with the setup of your pickups. If you're still having a problem with your sound then you can start thinking about switching back to EMGs, getting an OD and so on.
Btw: If you end up liking your EMGs better stick with them. Sound is a matter of taste and so are pickups. Nothing wrong with that.
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Btw: If you end up liking your EMGs better stick with them. Sound is a matter of taste and so are pickups. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah yeah, but Bare Knuckle Pickups are believe it or not, fashionable in some circles. You can't argue with that! :lol:
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YAY! The EMG-Duncan-Dimarzio-oligarchy shall fall! :shock:
:lol:
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Ah, that may be a little far off, as long as they have their lucrative deals with various artists and companies.
For instance, how many 13-year olds buy EMG's because Metallica and various other big artists use them?
How many people stick with EMG's because they are what come standard in 90% of all ESP's and Schecters?
My guess is; a whole lot.
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Haha, I know. I just like the implication that in some scenes a comparatively small pickup company is so well-known that people buy them only because of their name. It's so totally against everything BKP represents in my eyes, which is something like great tone doesn't require a great name. If you know what I mean.
But anyway, people buying BKPs is a good thing no matter their reasons. Sold BKPs = money for Tim/BKP = quality pays off. And that's how it should be. :)
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Yeah yeah, but Bare Knuckle Pickups are believe it or not, fashionable in some circles. You can't argue with that! :lol:
Certainly not, but fashion can get in the way of getting the tone you want. I know what I am speaking of here because I used to play Fender amps because that is what you are supposed to use for Country Rock. Well, it worked but I never liked the clean tones. Just missed the sparkle. Switched then to an AC30 top boost style homebrew and got the desired sparkling clean tone without any further effort.
I like BKPs because they work for me. I only once had EMGs in one of my guitars and did not like them at all - too thin sounding for me. But in combination with an overly fat sounding amp I see that they could be just the ticket.
Bottom line is use what gives you the tone - it's your ears that count.
Cheers Stephan
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Bottom line is use what gives you the tone - it's your ears that count.
Cheers Stephan
(http://ethiopiancraigs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/amen_brother-s270x263-114786-580.jpg)
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Haha, I know. I just like the implication that in some scenes a comparatively small pickup company is so well-known that people buy them only because of their name. It's so totally against everything BKP represents in my eyes, which is something like great tone doesn't require a great name. If you know what I mean.
But anyway, people buying BKPs is a good thing no matter their reasons. Sold BKPs = money for Tim/BKP = quality pays off. And that's how it should be. :)
Ss.org, right? :lol:
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Ss.org, right? :lol:
Exactly. :) I happen to stop by there quite often. Some of the people there know what they're talking about (Nolly, Bulb, Zimbloth etc), but most of them recommend on things they've never had any experience with.
It's a fun community and I like browsing all the crazy NGDs but there's quite a lot of fan-boying going on.
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Ss.org, right? :lol:
Exactly. :) I happen to stop by there quite often. Some of the people there know what they're talking about (Nolly, Bulb, Zimbloth etc), but most of them recommend on things they've never had any experience with.
It's a fun community and I like browsing all the crazy NGDs but there's quite a lot of fan-boying going on.
I've been there from 6 years now. The site has grown exponentially through the years and now it's mainly full of djent kids that lust after whatever Bulb uses :lol:
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Ss.org, right? :lol:
Exactly. :) I happen to stop by there quite often. Some of the people there know what they're talking about (Nolly, Bulb, Zimbloth etc), but most of them recommend on things they've never had any experience with.
It's a fun community and I like browsing all the crazy NGDs but there's quite a lot of fan-boying going on.
I've been there from 6 years now. The site has grown exponentially through the years and now it's mainly full of djent kids that lust after whatever Bulb uses :lol:
:lol:
I wouldnt say mainly
But the...balance has shifted rather a bit!