Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: hellsSG on August 03, 2011, 09:20:00 PM
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It seems most people who upload clips of their pickups here uses pods or some kind of amp simulations. Is amps becoming rare or what? :lol:
I bought an Engl Thunder just 2 months ago and it's got by far the best hi-gain sound i've ever had. Or well i guess what i call hi-gain isnt that high anymore :P Have the gain set at 1 o clock on the lead channel. Really nice treble, sorta hairy or whatever its called :) I think most of the time when recording with a simulation the tone gets all fuzzy and muffled.
Why are so many using amp simulators?
What do you like about real amps/amp simulators?
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It seems most people who upload clips of their pickups here uses pods or some kind of amp simulations. Is amps becoming rare or what? :lol:
I bought an Engl Thunder just 2 months ago and it's got by far the best hi-gain sound i've ever had. Or well i guess what i call hi-gain isnt that high anymore :P Have the gain set at 1 o clock on the lead channel. Really nice treble, sorta hairy or whatever its called :) I think most of the time when recording with a simulation the tone gets all fuzzy and muffled.
Why are so many using amp simulators?
What do you like about real amps/amp simulators?
I agree entirely that with modeller the tone gets fuzzy and muffled.
Or in the case of axe fx etc it has something weird going on in the high end that i cant quite place.
amps all the way for me.
I recently tried a palmer PDI 03 with my SLO for quieter recordings as the SLO is ridiculously loud and it made it sound like an axe fx so it went straight back
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Oh yeah btw what is this Axe FX? Seems like everyone now uses it but ive never heard of it untill just recently.
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its just another modeller.
Granted its one of the better ones but its still not close enough to be comparable to an amp
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oh okay. From what i've read it seems many ppl thinks its the best thing in the world. So there it is again...real amps people???
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i prefer real amps, but sometimes if i want to jam quietly or i go stay in a hotel for a while then i might take a modeller. It's just another tool.
I can't see myself using one live out of preference.
horses for courses
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i use a modeller live out of preference. real amps are bloody heavy things.
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If i wanted my guitar to sound 8-bit too, then I'd probably use one... PDT_003
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If i wanted my guitar to sound 8-bit too, then I'd probably use one... PDT_003
:lol:
and if i had a team of roadies it would be two full stacks all the way ;)
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haha too right!
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You started off mentioning people uploading clips - I think that partly answers the question by itself. I know very little about home recording, but I expect it's a lot easier to record with a modeller than to mike up a proper amp at home.
Away from home recording, I think most people would say they prefer a real amp, when they have a chance to crank one up. But modellers are very useful things - and although people routinely moan about them, they may not be the "real thing" but they do sound extremely bloody good (as anyone who was around 30 years ago and bought a JHS Rockbox or Tokai Magical Box will realise!)
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I think everyone trades off the convenience of a modeller with the hassle of micing an amp with their relative sound qualities. The first few clips I uploaded I used a Pod XT because I had no home recording equipment but since I got an SM 57 and a Tracker Pre I've only used a recorded amp because the extra quality, to my ears, justifies the extra fuss.
I also think I play better through a real amp because it's that bit more touch sensitive. For late night mucking about and for tones my tweedy amp can't do I still turn to the Pod but it gets used perhaps 5% of the time because I just prefer playing through, and the sound of, a real valve amp.
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Put simply, in a home studio situation, the vast majority of people will get better results with hardware or software modelers than they will with a real amp.
Not that many people plump for modelers live, in pro studios or if they're dealing with a capable engineer with the means to record loud amps in a home studio.
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they may not be the "real thing" but they do sound extremely bloody good (as anyone who was around 30 years ago and bought a JHS Rockbox or Tokai Magical Box will realise!)
Been here, done that :lol: - and I'd probably get me a decent mod thang if I had to travel / play at bedroom level etc... Now even with nowadays modellers (at least the ones I tried), I still prefer a proper tube amp, much more natural and organic sounding - I might not hear the difference listening to the mix, but I sure do while playing.
Also and FWIW, miking an amp is not that difficult - it's nowhere near the pain of correctly miking a drumset or piano, and doesn't necessarily require hi-end static microphones.
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Considering the price of most modelers and the reliance modern society has on computers, I'm not surprised that they've taken off.
I, personally, have only used them when trying to get basic ideas recorded or when I was living in an apartment and worked odd hours and had to use drum tracks to practice my band's songs.
Nothing can deny the power, feeling, and tone of a proper tube amp, though- therefore, they are all I would use when I give a damn about how my playing is coming through.
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Also and FWIW, miking an amp is not that difficult - it's nowhere near the pain of correctly miking a drumset or piano, and doesn't necessarily require hi-end static microphones.
Agreed. Also it's weird to me that an SM57, probably the most used guitar mic, is ignored and then at least several multiples of it's cost are spent attempting to mimic it. Even if you wanted to record at home without a speaker/mic combo, there's tons of free cab impulses and VSTs that can do a better job for no money and are more flexible than the majority of hardware units. You'd need an effects loop, a preamp out or an attenuator with that feature for that.
To each their own though. Sometimes a light unit that does an OK job at most sounds is 100% the best choice.
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For recording I understand the use of modelers. Live though I need tubeamps.
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This should tell you pretty much everything I think about this topic. This is what my home studio looks like at this instant, mid-recording.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/D_Man666/DSCF0126.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/D_Man666/DSCF0127.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/D_Man666/DSCF0128.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/D_Man666/DSCF0130.jpg)
Clearly the Bandit is the star of the show. (The blackstar belongs to the chap I'm tracking. We're using the VHT though: it usually wins).
This was done with a similar setup (and absolutely none of the gear in the vid :lol:). I think I even used the same mics, actually. Different speaker combo and placement though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5b0XUmzah0
I find VSTs quite viable for scratch tracks and they work for some people rather well for final sounds. I'm quite find of Nick Crow for that (in fact it bamboozles me as to why his stuffs free; its very good). It would be rank foolishness to say that good/usefull/viable tones cant be had with them, but I like amps, cabs, mics, speakers and use that whenever practicable or being serious about getting good sound to hard drive. I think it sounds better (or I wouldnt go to all this $%&#ing hassle! :lol:)
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=manhattan+transfer (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=manhattan+transfer)
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What does a 'manhatten transfer' have to do with amps and vsts?
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I for one think MDV likes amps!
I like 'my' amp, but i wish i liked plural amps XD
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You will never need a modeler, again.
http://postyourrig.blogspot.com/2011/02/mountain-witch.html (http://postyourrig.blogspot.com/2011/02/mountain-witch.html)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zg6XaWnkSxg/TWgPvTdUwBI/AAAAAAAABhU/LtM0nEFjeBk/s1600/IMG_0206.JPG)
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Great if you've got a room you can record those in loud enough to sound their best...
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Great if you've got a room you can record those in loud enough to sound their best...
Switchable from 3-50W.
http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx (http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx)
This is the older one, the 1224GT. This bloke doesn't really seem to know how to show off its tone capabilities, but check out the footswitch bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0xYq_Ig3Bo
Full-bore power amp tone with all the variations you would want from an Orange-ish amp for use in your apartment, studio, practice, pub, or big club.
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the harmonic richness coming from that matamp (the vid u posted) can never be replicated by '8-bit' toys! wonderful tone! modelers are good practice tools but why record with them when valve tone will always be the best?
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The only time i used a modeller really was when i was unemployed and couldnt afford a real amp.
Now i still have a few different ones but none of them get any use other than the line6 as a recording interface
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I don't play live anymore, but if I did, I'm fairly certain I'd want valve amps on stage. I'm a combo kind of guy, preferably 1X12 mic'd up, I've never got on with heads & cabs.
Recently, for several years, I was using modelling exclusively at home. Standalone units from Line6 and Vox. As I record with Boss standalone recorders, I also have all of Boss's guitar effects/modelling if I want it.
In the last year or so I've acquired two valve combos - Vox AC4TV and Laney CUB12. The Vox sounds well cool cranked, but I'll never be able to use it like that where I live (it also sounds somewhat boxy compared to the Laney). The Laney is extremely versatile and does good tones even at what I'd call low volumes (but the neighbours might not :lol:).
Basically, I'll use whatever it takes, none of it's wrong:
- For general practicing/noodling during sociable hours it's the Laney everytime now.
- For general practicing/noodling during unsociable hours it's a Vox Tonelab LE or a Line6 XT, whichever's plugged in at the time, through headphones. If I started at 8am, and 9am arrives and I liked what I was doing I'll switch the studio monitors on and take the headphones off (and not bother with the Laney).
- For bass practicing/noodling it's the Line6 XT with bass expansion through monitors or headphones (or the Laney's ok if I can't be bothered to plug the XT in).
- If I'm working something out songwriting/recording, and I'm plugged into a Boss recorder, I'll use the modelling on there.
- If I'm trying to record guitar "seriously" I'll use any of the above - whichever one gets the performance I think I want. Obviously, if it's unsociable hours, the valve amps are not available to me as an option. Modelling does add various artifacts to the sound. Sometimes this is distracting to me as a guitar player, but it's neither right nor wrong to most listeners. Sometimes the modellor does a far better job for the part than the valve amp.
Overall, I most enjoy playing the Laney cranked up to a reasonable volume. But that's only possible, on average, about one or two hours a week for me - not enough!!!
Otherwise, with any of the methods (except the Boss models maybe, which I don't like too much), I can always get the job done to a "good enough for rock and roll" level. Sometimes I can get something cooking on the Tonelab or XT that I much prefer to the Laney... next day I might not like it at all :lol:.
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Great if you've got a room you can record those in loud enough to sound their best...
Switchable from 3-50W.
http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx (http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx)
That's not what's in the photo? Those are 50/100w amps without even master volumes.
Furthermore, again: The majority of people will get better results from a modeler than from amping a mic and cab at home, even if they have all the tools to do it well. Simply because of laziness and a lack of knowledge. That's why they're so popular. It's also why the quality of home recordings rockets year on year.
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i'm unimpressed with these huge rigs being posted.
in an ideal world, we'd all have 120w full stacks weighing less than a kilo, with our favourite speakers, the size of a large stomp box, and for all £200. naturally it comes already mic'd up with fancy mics, and nice cables in to some good preamps.
this is not the world i live in. i defy any 'normal punter' to tell me they can tell the difference between a half decent modern modeler and a big valve rig at loud club volumes. and if they can hear the difference, they wouldn't give a sh!t.
of course i enjoy my marshall into my mesa boogie cabs at home. but i don't enjoy carrying it to gigs just to play for 45 mins. since i'm not iron maiden its completely unrealistic to bring this rig on an aeroplane too.
if it wasn't for modelers theres no way i could do what i do as a musician. up to date modelers are the best innovation for guitarists in the last decade.
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There are a couple of things in between amp modelers and full stacks.
There are tube combos out there that rival full stacks in 'bigness' of tone.
I've seen too many live bands with guitarists playing 4-digit guitars through digital amps. They might as well could have been playing a plywood slab.
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There are a couple of things in between amp modelers and full stacks.
There are tube combos out there that rival full stacks in 'bigness' of tone.
I've seen too many live bands with guitarists playing 4-digit guitars through digital amps. They might as well could have been playing a plywood slab.
i don't disagree.. but even a 1x12 combo is hard to carry when you also have your guitar, mics, cables etc. and they can also sound bad in the wrong hands.
i'm mainly reacting against the posts of MDV and Crunch - their studios are clearly not a cost/space/weight effective alternative to a modeller.
its horses for courses, but to say modern modellers are toys/sound bad is clearly ridiculous. they have a place, and a very very important one at that.
i think carrying a heavy amp (even a combo) to a gig is becoming more and more old fashioned - but thats just me. maybe people enjoy that kind of punishment, inconvenience and expense.
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You should have learned to play harmonica.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Ti42/Smilies/790_smiley_picking_a_fight.gif)
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You should have learned to play harmonica.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/Ti42/Smilies/790_smiley_picking_a_fight.gif)
:lol:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2219/1844799811_4bfa3fff4f_z_d.jpg?zz=1)
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Great if you've got a room you can record those in loud enough to sound their best...
Switchable from 3-50W.
http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx (http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx)
That's not what's in the photo? Those are 50/100w amps without even master volumes.
Furthermore, again: The majority of people will get better results from a modeler than from amping a mic and cab at home, even if they have all the tools to do it well. Simply because of laziness and a lack of knowledge. That's why they're so popular. It's also why the quality of home recordings rockets year on year.
That's the link to the 1224 on the Matamp website. I don't take too much stock in the pictures, anyway. The 1224mkII is, regardless, an amazing amp that switches from 3/7/15/30/40/50W.
i'm unimpressed with these huge rigs being posted.
in an ideal world, we'd all have 120w full stacks weighing less than a kilo, with our favourite speakers, the size of a large stomp box, and for all £200. naturally it comes already mic'd up with fancy mics, and nice cables in to some good preamps.
this is not the world i live in. i defy any 'normal punter' to tell me they can tell the difference between a half decent modern modeler and a big valve rig at loud club volumes. and if they can hear the difference, they wouldn't give a sh!t.
of course i enjoy my marshall into my mesa boogie cabs at home. but i don't enjoy carrying it to gigs just to play for 45 mins. since i'm not iron maiden its completely unrealistic to bring this rig on an aeroplane too.
if it wasn't for modelers theres no way i could do what i do as a musician. up to date modelers are the best innovation for guitarists in the last decade.
I get tired of big rigs, real fast. I got a Dual Terror so I could have a small apartment/practice/and pub amp for pretty cheap. I lug around a handmade 1x12"+1x15", most times. If I need the loud, I bring out the 3x12"+1x15".
My buddy has a 120W 6505+ with a Marshall 4x12". He's never had it cranked and is hesitant to move his rig, ever. He also has a bunch of pedals that he's always messing with since he can't find a tone he's content with.
Furthermore, we took the time to become decent at playing guitar and we spent the paychecks on our gear, why can't we take ten more minutes to figure out how to mic a speaker?
Different strokes for different folks, but we've been misinformed about what we need as amateur musicians. It's easy to assume that, since Kerry King plays a set of JCM800 full stacks, that's what we need to have a comparable tone.
I don't think modeling is a bad thing, mind. It's just upsetting, to me, to see artists resorting to sterile methods to orchestrate such a visceral and organic idea onto a finished product.
If we took the time to find our own path and live a life of moderation, we would have saved a lot of time and effort.
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i'm mainly reacting against the posts of MDV and Crunch - their studios are clearly not a cost/space/weight effective alternative to a modeller.
The pictures I posted are not of my studio. They're my wet dreams left over from never growing up.
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i'm mainly reacting against the posts of MDV and Crunch - their studios are clearly not a cost/space/weight effective alternative to a modeller.
The pictures I posted are not of my studio. They're my wet dreams left over from never growing up.
not looking to pick a fight with you mate..
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Great if you've got a room you can record those in loud enough to sound their best...
Switchable from 3-50W.
http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx (http://matamp.co.uk/amplification/1224-mkii.aspx)
That's not what's in the photo? Those are 50/100w amps without even master volumes.
Furthermore, again: The majority of people will get better results from a modeler than from amping a mic and cab at home, even if they have all the tools to do it well. Simply because of laziness and a lack of knowledge. That's why they're so popular. It's also why the quality of home recordings rockets year on year.
That's the link to the 1224 on the Matamp website. I don't take too much stock in the pictures, anyway. The 1224mkII is, regardless, an amazing amp that switches from 3/7/15/30/40/50W.
Yes, I now. My point was just that your post was a bit "Look at these! Get these and forget about modelers!" but the amps pictured were things that are little use to you unless you've the facilities to record very loud amps at big venue volumes.
And again, the 1224s are great. Matamp generally make lots of brilliant amps, but the majority of people will get better results when recording at home with Guitar Rig.
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I'd say recording on computers gives you a very close sound, especially with the Axe-FX. Vai and Petrucci use it. It's perfectly suitable which requires less messing about. To get a good recording sound from ya amp, there's so much messing about: hooking up ya mics off centre, center of the dome; getting it in a room where the room's reverb is perfect; finding a big room so you can crank ya amp, etc. If you have all these things at your disposal then you should definitely record with your amp though. But I'd say digital gives you a pretty good sound with less messing about. I'm personally a valve player, but I like to record with my PC so I have limitless tones at my disposal :)
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I record at home using a Line 6 Toneport and when i last gigged it was using the JVM410h that MDV now has in his studio.
there will always be tones that you don't like and tones that you do, It doesn't matter how they're acheived. I'm as capable of getting a terrible tone out of a boutique amp as an experienced producer is of getting an awesome tone from a modeller.
also, by the time i'm home/done daily cleaning cooking etc its 9 oclock, If i cranked up an amp at the time i'd be castrated on the spot! I do enjoy valve amps, but they don't work for my situation, modellers do, and i'm learning how to get them to sound good in a mix.
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My apologies about all that, then, gents. I took no offence and had none intended for either of you.
Chalk it up to miscommunication, I suppose.
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I think I've said this before, but most listeners don't know if you're playing though a matchless or a matchbox, they only care that they're enjoying it.
I don't think many of us are in a position where were lucky to be able to really crank the big amps we own. I agree the practicality of a small discrete digital box is way more convenient than having to lug a pair of ampeg svts and matching 8x10" around, but it is horses for courses.
I'm all for use what you're comfortable with, be that a full stack for your local pub gig or a modeler for an arena gig, it's your money at the end of the day.
I do think that eventually the software will get to a place where it's hard to discern if it an amp or a modeler. It will never be a perfect match but will be a close as damnit to not make a difference.
The debate about how you as a player respond to what you're playing through is a a whole different argument.
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I think I've said this before, but most listeners don't know if you're playing though a matchless or a matchbox, they only care that they're enjoying it.
I don't think many of us are in a position where were lucky to be able to really crank the big amps we own. I agree the practicality of a small discrete digital box is way more convenient than having to lug a pair of ampeg svts and matching 8x10" around, but it is horses for courses.
I'm all for use what you're comfortable with, be that a full stack for your local pub gig or a modeler for an arena gig, it's your money at the end of the day.
I do think that eventually the software will get to a place where it's hard to discern if it an amp or a modeler. It will never be a perfect match but will be a close as damnit to not make a difference.
The debate about how you as a player respond to what you're playing through is a a whole different argument.
I agree completely! For example: Michael Romeo from Symphony X plays a Line 6 Vetta II live. It's all about what you prefer and if it sounds good. As long as you interpret your music how you like it, and your audience like it...Who cares?
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whenever i want to play guitar i just come in and plug into my SLO i generally play pretty loud but i can turn the amp right down to normal speaking levels and still get a great sound.
If i had an auralex gramma (which i keep meaning to buy) i could play at any time without any body complaining.
And i live in a flat with people below above and at both sides.
The only restriction is out of respect i dont play loud after 7pm on weekdays or before 10am on weekends.
for me it takes longer to set up a modeller with a semi reasonable sound that doesnt come close to comparing and yes i have used an axe fx and an eleven rack both which werent even 10% of the way there.
The eleven rack was far closer though.
as for gigs i dont currently play anything live but have been to many auditions lately with my head and cab with no problems in taxis and on buses/trains (only the head in these situations)
they are heavy but i think the tone far outweighs having to lug them around
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Playing guitar is so much more than tone though. Amp modellers in my experience can get near as makes no difference in tone to a good valve amp but I still haven't played through one that feels like a valve amp.
I agree that modellers are very convenient and can't be beat for practicality but psychologically I like to know that I have hot bottles pumping out that sound! I never think that when lugging them about but thats another story
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Playing guitar is so much more than tone though.
It is and it isnt.
I personally play a heck of a lot better when im using a nice tone.
One thing you pointed out though is the dynamics and feel are also very important
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i'm mainly reacting against the posts of MDV and Crunch - their studios are clearly not a cost/space/weight effective alternative to a modeller.
Thats not for you to say on my behalf. As I said in my post; I believe its worth it, I believe its cost, space and weight effective and you are very clearly not in a position to tell me that I have spent my time and money in a fashion thats wrong for me (and indeed for my clients; I use all that equipment (and rather a bit more) in my job).
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Playing guitar is so much more than tone though.
It is and it isnt.
I personally play a heck of a lot better when im using a nice tone.
One thing you pointed out though is the dynamics and feel are also very important
+1
No one likes a shitety tone xD
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Playing guitar is so much more than tone though.
It is and it isnt.
I personally play a heck of a lot better when im using a nice tone.
One thing you pointed out though is the dynamics and feel are also very important
I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.
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It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:
This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.
There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.
On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:
I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.
You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...
BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin... 8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.
I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).
Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:
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It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:
This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.
There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.
On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:
I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.
You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...
BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin... 8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.
I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).
Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:
Very well said
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Also and FWIW, miking an amp is not that difficult - it's nowhere near the pain of correctly miking a drumset or piano, and doesn't necessarily require hi-end static microphones.
Agreed. Also it's weird to me that an SM57, probably the most used guitar mic, is ignored and then at least several multiples of it's cost are spent attempting to mimic
Reminds me of an anecdote I already posted here IIRC... Big studio in Paris (early 90s), hard rock guitar player recording (LP on a cranked JCM Marshall), sound engineer insisting on trying to mike it with a complicated combination of hi-end static mikes (Neumans and whatnot) going thru hi-end tubes preamps, tube EQ etc, and the guitar player not satisfied with the tone, to the point he was starting loosing confidence (one of the worst thing that can happen in studio). Kindly suggested the sound op to let me try something (while the customer was away of course), sound op says "ok" (well, at that point he had nothing to loose), whent ahead with a good old SM57, close miked, no EQ, no nothing, and then the guitar player instant silly grin "YES THAT'S IT DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". :mrgreen: (session saved, SupahBigB kicking off for a new adventure :lol:).
As far as I'm concerned, some of the best guitar tones I got (as a sound op myself) where with an old, half-broken Beyer M88, close miking, and eventually an additional AKG 414 2 meters away to get the room when it sounded ok. Ok, possibly not the best guitar tones ever, but it JustWorked(tm) and usually was a no-brainer to mix.
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Oh, and about this "true thang vs mod" kind of flamewar : I DO agree that good modellers are about the best recent innovations, and do a very good job (wrt/ what we had to deal with in the 80s it's a night and day difference), and I'll take a good modeller over a shitety amp any other day. Now however close they get, they just don't have the same feel, and while no one will hear the difference in the mix whether live or recorded (well, with the good ones at least), I will still feel it when playing, and that does make a difference in the final result (ok, I'm certainly not a great guitar player so no one cares, but anyway...). As far as I'm concerned, whatever rocks your bot and makes you sound and feel good is the right thing, period, so it's not a something vs another, it's just a something or another pro's and con's and sharing experiences / feeling about it.
Oh and yes - I'm a lucky guy, I can play my 40w tube amp at almost rehearsal volumes late at night, else I'd certainly be using a good modeller instead for home practice - been playing unplugged for years when living in a flat in Paris in the 80s and early 90s, and I swear I would have killed for a modeller by then, even a very under-average one by today's standards 8)
My 2 cents, really.
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It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:
This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.
There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.
On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:
I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.
You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...
BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin... 8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.
I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).
Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:
True, each to their own, personal preference, suitability for task, practicality and all that. Absolutely. No question. I'm never going to tell anyone not to use modellers or that good sounds cant be had with them, or its the wrong thing for them to do.
But no one has ever come to record with me and said "Marshall, Engl and VHT amps and Bogner and Orange cabs....each to their own, but I was hoping to get that Line 6 sound, dont you have a pod?"
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It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:
This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.
There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.
On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:
I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.
You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...
BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin... 8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.
I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).
Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:
True, each to their own, personal preference, suitability for task, practicality and all that. Absolutely. No question. I'm never going to tell anyone not to use modellers or that good sounds cant be had with them, or its the wrong thing for them to do.
But no one has ever come to record with me and said "Marshall, Engl and VHT amps and Bogner and Orange cabs....each to their own, but I was hoping to get that Line 6 sound, dont you have a pod?"
Ha it would be so funny if one of your future clients does that.....
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Yes. Yes it would.
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It's funny how these threads get so heated - I don't think anyone has said they actually prefer modellers to real amps, just that there are times when modellers may be more practical or convenient.
Just my tuppence ha'penny. Carry on.
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my guitars on my old bands demo were all POD.
for the 7" we did, I did scratch tracks with a pod and used a laney GH100TI to overdub.
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It's funny how these threads get so heated - I don't think anyone has said they actually prefer modellers to real amps, just that there are times when modellers may be more practical or convenient.
Just my tuppence ha'penny. Carry on.
Some people do, and get very good results with them.
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If space/weight/noise is a problem preventing one from cranking a valve amp for recording, who has got round that by using solely a valve preamp like bogner fish /CAE 3+ / engl e530 in to an interface eg apogee duet etc ...surely the latter compact rack gear has better tone than modelers and gives you the best of both worlds (tone and compactness)? does anyone here record directly with a rack valve preamp or the lineout from their valve combo/head? would be good to hear some samples or good results achieved this way. Cheers.
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http://soundcloud.com/wartime-novelty/slo
That is using my SLO with a palmer PDI 03
which replaces the speaker and emulates a cab
i didnt like it at all and sent it back the next day.
I will happilly use an attenuator though
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http://soundcloud.com/wartime-novelty/slo
That is using my SLO with a palmer PDI 03
which replaces the speaker and emulates a cab
i didnt like it at all and sent it back the next day.
I will happilly use an attenuator though
If I could find a good speaker emulator, I would be happyish. Just take the speaker out and drive it into a box of some sort that goes to headphones or the computer.
It would have to emulate, well. Some of the Blackstar demos, I've heard, seem to have pretty decent ones.
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thats exactly what the palmer does
it also has the 4 unprocessed outputs that you can use impulses etc with in your DAW