Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Dmoney on August 08, 2011, 02:09:49 AM
-
I'm listening to LBC and watching BBC News.
Sounds like stuff has been getting wild all over london tonight, and it isn't on BBC News. LBC however is keeping it real. wonder how this will be covered in the morning.
-
It's weird - there was a definite sense that coverage was suppressed.
-
Might be to stop is spreading. Images of shops with open doors and people running out with TV's might just encourage more people to go on the rampage. I mean looting is awful but If I saw images of Denmark Street being looted I'd probably turn into a wild eyed animal....
Either that or after getting camera crews attacked they decided to give it a wide berth.
Or now the BBC are moving to Salford they don't care about London!
-
If Denmark St was getting looted I'd be down there like a shot! haha.
I was thinking the same about it perhaps not being on there in order to not encourage more people to go out. I haven't seen much on the news about it this morning. Last night I was seeing messages on facebook from friends just listing places, and it got really confusing til I tuned into LBC. Enfield, Walthamstow, Palmers Green, Angel, Brixton, West End, Chingford, Dalston...
All I could think about after listening to some people on the radio talk, was Stanford Prison Experiment. The blackout of info on the BBC new channel was really odd. LBC had details and eyewitnesses calling in every few minutes.
-
Enfield, Walthamstow, Palmers Green, Angel, Brixton, West End, Chingford, Dalston...
Brixton was all closed off to pedestrians this morning, lots of smashed windows and shattered bus stops. Cretins.
And full-on news coverage now!
Still, maybe it'll put a few people off coming to London for the Olympics next year....
-
I don't think the coverage is that full compared to the LBC broadcast last night.
I have friends who saw looting in places that haven't been mentioned in the BBC News yet, for example.
It seems really hard to grasp the true scale of what happened last night. LBC & the people calling in at the time made it feel more widespread than the BBC pictures this morning.
I thought the Olympics was VIP only? :lol:
-
It really does feel like a return to the 1980s - I am now waiting for Conflict to do a tour, free festivals in some field in Cornwall and hair metal to make a come back.....and Teresa May to start talking about bringing back capital punishment.
-
It really does feel like a return to the 1980s - I am now waiting for Conflict to do a tour, free festivals in some field in Cornwall and hair metal to make a come back.....and Teresa May to start talking about bringing back capital punishment.
Not all bad then...
-
maybe thats the reason for people looting sports stores. theft of spandex.
-
the hackney riots are actually not so far away from me. i was walking through hoxton square about a couple of hours ago and there was a couple of kids mucking about, kicking over bins and pretending to be rioting. made me think - if there was enough of them (like there were just up the road) it would have been an actual riot.
i'm not worried about it, but it is concerning.
-
so do we think any news channel will be tasteless enough to use the Kaiser Chiefs song playing over a montage of the rioting?
-
I'm getting sick of the way this scum are getting away with it.
Now some Turkish shop keepers are taking matters into their own hands with baseball bats and well done to them!
-
Send the Army in!
-
Just read there's been fires started in Croydon. Lets hope Mr Feline Guitars is alright
-
#londonriots on twitter is going ballistic trending forth in the world. The info coming in is things are happening in about a dozen areas in London
-
And now in leeds
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14449656
-
Just read there's been fires started in Croydon. Lets hope Mr Feline Guitars is alright
Spoke to him earlier and he's ok ATM but Croydon looks f**king bad. :(
-
Just read there's been fires started in Croydon. Lets hope Mr Feline Guitars is alright
latest I've read...
8.23pm: Streets in Croydon are "in complete lockdown" according to the Croydon Guardian.
The paper is running a live blog on disruption in the area. Their reporter Peter Truman writes:
Swarms of youths in hoods and masks are confronting the police from every junction to London Road.
Bricks, bottles and sticks were thrown at the police line, who are armed with batons and riot shields.
Tactical support, in full riot gear, are also on the scene.
The police have set up a sterile zone between the Fox and Hounds pub and North End.
West Croydon station has been shut.
Hope you don't get affected by this Jonathan, finger crossed mate.
This is really getting out of hand now, the Police need to get a hold on things but I can't see it ending now its escalated to this level :(
-
They hit Rock Bottom music shop in Croydon this evening and according to The Local Guardian http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/topstories/9183466.LIVE__Riots_in_Croydon/ (http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/topstories/9183466.LIVE__Riots_in_Croydon/) are pilling in to PC World and Comet about a mile and a half away from me.
Her mum needs a new fridge.
-
This is ridiculous. There is no excuse for any of this-ordinary folk will be suffering. I hope Jonathan is OK though he is in South Croydon and hopefully away from where most of the trouble is.
-
It's so depressing that such vast numbers are latching onto this behaviour. What sort of people are they? :(
It starts with a protest about a shooting, escalates into violence and now arseholes all over the country are thinking "I'll have me a bit of that tonight" (amazing any of them actually watch or read the news). They're like animals. Complete and utter $%&#ing scumbags.
-
Looks as though things have also broken out in Plymouth and Birmingham too. Apparently in one of the cities, a childrens hospital as also been damaged. I'm at utter loss for words at how disgusting these people are. I honestly think that police with water canons, 'bean bag' guns or some other deterant should be used. I've read a few people think that the army or armed police should be involved. Quite honestly I'm not sure, it seems wrong but considering how these animals are being it's hard not to think it should be so.
A little insight into the minds of some of these parasites.
A 14 year old girl when questioned why the riots are happening after she looted alcohol from a near by shop said 'Recession, we've got no money or anything to do'
At 14 she shouldn't be near drink and she shouldn't be worrying about money too. She thinks she has it bad? how about the poor people whos shop they own/work in will now have to rebuild their shop due to being set on fire or the poor family who now have no home of their own?
Complete and utter vermin.
-
This is NOT about recession / lack of youth clubs bla, bla , bla....
If I see a "community leader" again I will vomit. :x
Blackberries are not an accessory commonly associated with f**king poverty!!!!
-
Don't worry. Once they have rioted for a few more nigths it will start to feel like a job then they will quit for an easier life.
-
Just read a tweet that the Barflly in Camden is on fire. Also Zoo animals been let out?? But both are unconfirmed.
In Dalston, Turkish shop keepers in the 100s are fighting with rioters to protect their businesses.
Its bloody mad here. I've never known anything this bad here before.
-
If I see a "community leader" again I will vomit. :x
Just saw that knob Darcus Howe (remember him from countless '80s Channel 4 debate programmes?) on Newsnight defending these tw@ts and saying oh well, the shopkeepers can just make insurance claims. c--k. :x
Then they showed film of the fires in Croydon. It's horrifying. I'm actually starting to feel a bit scared.
-
If I see a "community leader" again I will vomit. :x
Just saw that knob Darcus Howe (remember him from countless '80s Channel 4 debate programmes?) on Newsnight defending these tw@ts and saying oh well, the shopkeepers can just make insurance claims. c--k. :x
Then they showed film of the fires in Croydon. It's horrifying. I'm actually starting to feel a bit scared.
That Devils Advocate prick! Their burning people out of their homes. Silly c*nt, trust him to stick up for them. There is a huge Elephant in the room about the demographic of most of these rioters isn't there.
-
Yes, it is very worrying.
The police need to get the water cannons out. I'm watching them just walking up to the police and mocking them.
When did the police lose any power they had? They need to be seen to do something quickly, they can't just stand there looking like idiots.
-
An African or Asian elephant?
-
An African or Asian elephant?
I couldn't tell, it had its hoodie on.
-
Yes, it is very worrying.
The police need to get the water cannons out. I'm watching them just walking up to the police and mocking them.
When did the police lose any power they had? They need to be seen to do something quickly, they can't just stand there looking like idiots.
The water cannon are in N. Ireland. The police lost their powers, let me guess, during the last Government? They didn't stand around like this in 85 & 81, they smashed the cr@p out of them.
-
Woman jumps from window to escape burning building
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/08/london-riots-terrified-woman-jumps-from-burning-building-115875-23330390/
-
Man, that is sick... I'm always against police abuse (as from where I'm it's usual), but these people are crimenals and the police shall treat them like that!!!
-
I just got home from Dalston. Saw some people up on the roof on the kingsland shopping centre. people were gathering and stuff kept popping off.
Still, me and mate walked round dalston to a friends house with cups of tea in hand... I think the fact we walked through a potential flashpoint with cups of tea must have fried some peoples brains.
We were up over where the market is in dalston, people kept running around and stuff was going on there for a while. I decided to make a move before the overground shut.
People have been getting mugged in London Fields, and I didn't fancy getting mugged on a bus or on the train.
-
I keep hearing sirens outside - no idea if there's something going on nearby or if they're en route to Croydon and/or Brixton. I have no intention of investigating.
-
where are you philly?
I heard Clapham might be getting evacuated. that could be over the top. Camberwell is tense.
Liverpool has trouble starting.
-
I'm in Streatham - so just South of Brixton and a few miles North of Croydon. All on the A23.
I don't think anything much is going on, but as I say I'm not going to look! Half the population here is Polish, so they probably don't feel much connection with the rioters/looters...! :lol:
-
I'm chatting to friends I have in Streatham. They said its all quiet there too. They have family in Croyden who left Croyden and came to stay with them. I'm in new cross. It's pretty student dominated but its a real mix. deptford isn't far. But these places don't have the kinds of shops that have been getting looted really, even though the population isn't what you'd called affluent
-
Just popping my head up to say Hi and that all is well here (as far as I can tell)
As has been said the main trouble seems to be North of the town centre and we are South
This has NOTHING to do with the shooting in Tottenham and everything to do with lawlessness, thieving - these scum are using it as an opportunity for behaviours that they wouldn't dare do otherwise.
The owner of the burnt out Reeves furniture store is a recent customer of mine - so sad!
Hoping everybody else stays safe!
-
Good to hear you're OK, Jon. I watched a long interview with Mr Reeves on the BBC, poor guy was heartbroken and very angry. That business has been going for 150 years through five generations of his family, now it's all gone - he said it looks like Dresden.
And then you get fools like Livingstone and Howe defending these dolts because they're "deprived" and "frustrated".
I'm chatting to friends I have in Streatham. They said its all quiet there too. They have family in Croyden who left Croyden and came to stay with them. I'm in new cross. It's pretty student dominated but its a real mix. deptford isn't far. But these places don't have the kinds of shops that have been getting looted really, even though the population isn't what you'd called affluent
Yeah, there's relatively little to loot in Streatham - 99p Stores and Lidl!
But seriously, there aren't many electrical goods stores or similar - it's mostly restaurants and pubs, although places like that have been trashed in Ealing and Clapham.
-
I dont think livingstone was defending them as such and I don't think there is an excuse, at the same time I'm not for over analyzing the causes, but I think there is something more to it than opportunistic thieves in some cases at least. I don't really have a suggestion for what is fueling it all and I can't get my head around it. I think all the individuals involved are going to have different reasons if they have any at all!
I'm not defending what is going on, and I agree with Johnathan that is not about the shooting and it is about lawlessness, theft, but I think boredom, attitudes towards police, upbringing, social situations plays into what is going on. I'm not saying the youth are marginalized and lashing out, I'm just saying as far as I'm concerned there isn't really a clearly defined reason to put across the board for what is happening, although we can agree there is no excuse whatever the reason.
-
An African or Asian elephant?
:lol:
-
They are selfless opportunistic little sh*ts who are out for a good time. No thought for business owners or their employees. All very well saying airily that people can claim under their insurance- oh that is alright then- it is just b*llocks. Making a claim is a pain in the neck-I know I deal with that every day. Many of the employees of the shops now have no jobs- a lot will be "let go" just so that this scum can have a night out thieving and wrecking. They will never come to anything themselves and resent the fact that others have some sort of life. They are hurting their fellow citizens and that, to me , in the present climate is unforgivable.
-
Croydon town centre on BBC Breakfast as I type.
Looks terrible! Wonder what it will look like after the riot?
Sorry - bad taste.
Group-thug behaviour; it starts (for whatever reason, valid or otherwise) then is latched on to by a generation that really could do with a good, hard smack.
Politicians all confirming to type too...
Does anyone else think that Theresa May looks like Norman Tebbit & Margaret Thatchers love-child..?
-
The trouble is this is a generation that seems to be lacking a moral compass - they don't seem to see right and wrong.
Just a quick clue to help anyone who is confused - stealing stuff and arson are wrong - OK!
Some of the looters have put clips up on Youtube - hope the police are watching them
Apparently the looters are coming back tonight for anyone they missed last night - they actually told one of the shopkeepers in my street this in the early hours as he was sweeping up his broken windows
Watched a police /TSG van making house calls about 6am on the estate opposite us - wonder if they found who they were looking for.
-
Some of the looters have put clips up on Youtube - hope the police are watching them
This just proves that either they are a) stupid or b) think that the government will be soft on them. I reckon it's the former and that they are doing it to show their mates how hard they are i.e. they don't have the intelligence to think about possible consequences. I seriously hope they are all caught and bought to justice somehow.
Not sure if it has made the news but apparently last night the Turkish community in Dalston was been chasing looters away. If this is true good on them. It's kind of like school bullies but on a larger and more violent scale. They need to be stood up to with a show of force. It should really be a combined police/army operation now but I suspect there will be quite a bit of dithering and talks of 'Human Rights' for the looters.
I nearly had an argument with Jane about this last night as my view on dealing with violent social disorder is quite different to hers. Rubber bullets and water cannons need to be used so these people know that they can't just do what they want. If this results in more criminal activity the counter measure should continue until the message is heard LOUD AND CLEAR.
I am at a relatively safe distance from all of this but I sincerely hope it gets resolved very soon and that the communities so badly hit get back on their collective feet and back to relative normality quickly.
-
the rioting in hackney/dalston is worryingly close where i live. though its far enough away for me not to be immediately in danger, its funny seeing shops and places i go to regularly in the news due to the trouble.
glad all the londoners on here are ok too.
-
I just woke up, so i dunno what else went on after about 2:30am.
As to whats been said... I don't think these kids care. I don't think it's about them not having morals, i think they know right from wrong but they absolutely do not care.
I don't believe all these people saying it was kids from 'outside the area' doing this stuff, like every borough just swapped its troublemakers with another and then all hell brakes loose. I don't buy it.
-
I just woke up, so i dunno what else went on after about 2:30am.
As to whats been said... I don't think these kids care. I don't think it's about them not having morals, i think they know right from wrong but they absolutely do not care.
I don't believe all these people saying it was kids from 'outside the area' doing this stuff, like every borough just swapped its troublemakers with another and then all hell brakes loose. I don't buy it.
How would these people know if these trouble makers were from anyway. I don't buy it either.
These people just don't give a sh*t, its as simple as that.
I wonder if anyone died last night.
-
Interesting to see the demographics of people out defending businesses and homes.
Bloody immigrants. Coming over here and defending our communities.
-
Darcus Howe tells the BBC: "I don't call it a riot, I call it an insurrection." - Well Darcus, I call you a C**T
-
Have you seen the vid of the West Indian woman having a good shout at the looters? I'm on my works computer so haven't got the link, but she hits the nail right on the head.
Got one of the wifes mates comming up to stay tonight. She's a bit jumpy as she was on the Kings Cross train when that was blown up (next carriage to the bomb). She lives on a barge now, just opposite of what seems to be looter HQ, so it's probably best that she comes for a few days in the country.
-
i spent a day last year teaching some kids in Forest Gate (east of Stratford) music.
was struck heavily by the attitude there. some of the kids were up for learning something a bit different, but they were in the minority. most of them were incredibly cynical about life, they seemed to believe there was no opportunities open to them in life and just wanted to wind up the teacher and f_ck around as much as possible. they didn't really see any kind of future for themselves, but they knew they could live off the system to a certain extent, and they knew authorities didn't have any real teeth to keep them in check.
i would imagine its these type of kids doing the rioting. most of the ones i met had good hearts, even if they did want to f_ck around all the time. i am surprised its come down to this, but i think dmoney is right - they just don't care
-
Just shoot the lot of them. Job done. It'll cost us a lot less in the long run.
I f*king hate thieves.
-
Hi guys, thought would pop back up here to check on the Londoners!
I think the logical opposition is to use the rubber shots and water cannons. Jackass started in the 90s by videoing themselves try this stuff out, so its not going to kill them.
Maybe this will reform the police's policy of the paper trail!
-
Just popping my head up to say Hi and that all is well here (as far as I can tell)
As has been said the main trouble seems to be North of the town centre and we are South
This has NOTHING to do with the shooting in Tottenham and everything to do with lawlessness, thieving - these scum are using it as an opportunity for behaviours that they wouldn't dare do otherwise.
The owner of the burnt out Reeves furniture store is a recent customer of mine - so sad!
Hoping everybody else stays safe!
Glad you're safe mate - same goes out to everyone here in any proximity to this mess.
-
I predicted this to happen. It happened in Paris. Those hoods were powder kegs waiting for a spark.
I find the media to PC in it's coverage. That guy that was shot was an armed and dangerous criminal, a gangster.
The looters and rioters don't do it because they're poor or anything. They do it because they're scum that want to live the life of a football or (gangsta) rap star.
Poor people loot and riot for food, not plasma TVs and sneakers.
-
Apparently people are posting leaflets to houses in my town of Hatfield, trying to organise a riot this weekend. Now my town is not a rich town, in fact it's a ghost town with only a few newsagents and barbers so I don't see what the hell they can try to loot. However if they do end up trying their cr@p in my street or trying to damage my car or house, my friends, family and I will be giving them a bloody good hiding.
-
Don't think anyone's picked up on this yet in this thread. The Sony hub that was burnt down held the inventory for 150 independant record labels.
http://pitchfork.com/news/43474-sonypias-warehouse-burns-in-uk-riots/ (http://pitchfork.com/news/43474-sonypias-warehouse-burns-in-uk-riots/)
-
I think the logical opposition is to use the rubber shots and water cannons. Jackass started in the 90s by videoing themselves try this stuff out, so its not going to kill them.
Yeah, problem then is someone will lose an eye, or have a heart attack, or die from some freak injury then all hell will break loose.
On the other hand, if this goes on for another couple of nights someone, somewhere is going to be killed or burned to death. :(
(Nice to see you back, Will, by the way! :) )
-
I predicted this to happen. It happened in Paris. Those hoods were powder kegs waiting for a spark.
I find the media to PC in it's coverage. That guy that was shot was an armed and dangerous criminal, a gangster.
Allegedly a gangster. Allegedly armed. The originally (totally valid) protest was his family and friends asking for information as they were getting nothing from the Police.
The looters and rioters don't do it because they're poor or anything. They do it because they're scum that want to live the life of a football or (gangsta) rap star.
Poor people loot and riot for food, not plasma TVs and sneakers.
No. But there is context to be seen here. When was the last time we had anything of this scale? During the last depression in times of austerity. Currently we have the poorest social mobility of any developed country, some of the areas involved (or at least where the people involved seem to be appearing from, in search of things to nick) are by far the poorest in the nation and several are the places worst effected by the cuts and have double the national average unemployment. Many feel they're disregarded by the police, or worse persecuted, and the police aren't held accountable (which figures worryingly support, especially with the Met). Now people aren't out there rioting because of that directly, it's no protest, but these things have created a background of hopelessness and an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it".
Civil unrest, and now rioting has been on the rise in the last year, perhaps unsurprising given we've a Prime Minister who stated publicly that peaceful protest would have no effect on policy. This has been bubbling under waiting to erupt, and the root causes are being entirely ignored.
Disregarding it as "scum that want to live the life of a football or (gangsta) rap star" is dangerous. It ignores the context and invites us to sweep it under the carpet and wait for it to happen again. The people involved are arseholes, no question, but this isn't so widespread and fast-growing for no reason.
-
I feel nfe has summed up what I've been trying to get straight in my head
just heard people might be gathering at London fields now.
-
I'm in agreement with nfe. I lived in Camberwell, Peckham and Lewisham and that's certainly my experience of parts of those areas, especially with kids who have nothing to do and very little to realistically aspire toward.
I live reasonably close to Hackney now but where I am was quiet last night. That said I'm currently in an office just north of Oxford Street and we've had all bar one of the doors into the building closed, locked and barricaded so I'm not sure if that's based on actual intelligence from somewhere or just in case. Stay safe everyone.
-
See this video: http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841 (http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841)
Scum!
It's not an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it", it's an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, because I can and there are no consequenses". And " Why would I work 8 hours a day while I can make the same money with two hours of husslin'? "
-
See this video: http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841 (http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841)
Scum!
It's not an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it", it's an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, because I can and there are no consequenses". And " Why would I work 8 hours a day while I can make the same money with two hours of husslin'? "
It really is sickening, total and utter cowards - I hope they're brought to justice. However the reality is they will (if they're caught) get a slap on the wrists community order or some cr@p like that.
-
See this video: http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841 (http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841)
Scum!
It's not an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it", it's an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, because I can and there are no consequenses". And " Why would I work 8 hours a day while I can make the same money with two hours of husslin'? "
Is anyone disputing that they're scum? When we're all in agreement (as is pretty much the entire nation, including the rioters themselves) it's far more useful to actually think about why this situation has arisen than reactionary moaning. If it's just that they're all scum who can't be arsed to work why isn't this behaviour constant and always on this scale? There are things needing done to prevent the attitudes arising that lead to this. Calling them names, howling about getting the army out and demanding watercannons and rubber bullets be used and other such nonsense that's being mentioned left right and centre will have zero effect. Increased prison sentences for shoplifting and vandalism will have no effect. Harsher prisons will have zero effect. All the usual rightist ideas will have zero effect, this demonstrable. Grass roots work is what's needed.
-
Which brings me back to my earlier point.
Shoot them all.
Shoot them dead.
Shoot them now!
-
Let's take our cues from Syria!
-
The difference being that these people aren't the innocent public.
They're all in one place! It's like looking a $%&#ing gift horse in the mouth!
-
Besides, word would get around pretty damn quick:
DO NOT STEAL STUFF YOU shiteBAGS
-
It was a joke. Mostly as I presumed your calling for summary executions was too.
-
Many feel they're disregarded by the police, or worse persecuted, and the police aren't held accountable (which figures worryingly support, especially with the Met). Now people aren't out there rioting because of that directly, it's no protest, but these things have created a background of hopelessness and an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it".
I can't really disagree with anything nfe said (although I'm not of a mind to be so reasonable towards these arseholes!) but I wonder if the key phrase there is they "feel" they're disregarded, or persecuted, or hopeless?
Is it really that bad? I get the feeling some of these kids have it drummed into them, like a mantra, almost from birth... they're never going to make it because of their background (ethnic or otherwise) or where they live, the police have it in for them, there's no point making any effort in school, they might as well get what they can from the State.... and they just trot out that line, by rote, without ever thinking of any alternative (if indeed they ever think at all).
I don't want to get all Daily Mail, but they really do seem to feel the world owes them a living - the notion that perhaps they can achieve but they might actually have to work for it themselves, and it may take a long time.... that seems to be an alien concept nowadays.
Yes indeed, grass roots work is needed. How do we stop this lot bringing up their own kids with the same attitudes?
-
I think there's certainly numbers of people who believe the problem is greater than it is and have grown up with that mindset, no doubt. But social mobility IS worse (by a massive gap if we look back half a century) than it has previously been in the UK. The wealth gap IS greater. Unemployment is high, public spending is reducing... Those people who see the Police seemingly get away with miscarriages of justice (high profile ones like Tomlinson, but also the 333+ who've died in Police custody in the last decade without a single conviction)... The problems are definitely real.
-
Yes indeed, grass roots work is needed. How do we stop this lot bringing up their own kids with the same attitudes?
Absolutely.
It's as easy to take the Right wing "zero tolerance" approach as it is to take the Socialist "Society is to blame" one, but these are attitudes instilled across generations.
My wife works in a Social context (big "S"), and we've seen her role eroded with govenment cuts and public disinterest. It's sad, very sad.
-
"This was not protest, it was crime and it was done with such impunity, it begs the question, "who raised these people to behave this way?" The answer is, the state raised them. More specifically, the "Welfare State" of socialist dreams.
It houses them - badly. It educates them - badly. It doesn't even bother to police their drug taking and dealing very much and the "something for nothing" culture which pervades places like Tottenham results in them seeing the opportunity to steal as one to be taken gleefully and without consequence.
There are thousands of decent people in Tottenham who work hard, try to do the best for their kids and who are no doubt appalled by what happenned. But like the 27 children who want to learn, but who can't because of the disruptive behaviour of three trouble-makers at the back of the class, the criminals who rioted and looted on Saturday cowed them in to submission.
If you want people to behave irresponsibly, take responsibility away from them. The Welfare State has been taking responsibility away from people for decades and it has led us here, to the rioting and looting we saw in Tottenham and elsewhere over the weekend."
I wholeheartedly support the above!
-
You quoting The Mail again, Dave..?
-
Who wrote that then, Afghan?
I agree with the sentiments, in a way, if not the language ("socialist dreams" :roll: ), but it does sound a bit Peter Hitchens....
-
This was not protest, it was crime and it was done with such impunity, it begs the question, "who raised these people to behave this way?" The answer is, the state raised them. More specifically, the "Welfare State" of socialist dreams.
Top flight objective soundbite, that... :lol:
It houses them - badly. It educates them - badly.
I think that's rather condemnatory of our good school system, not amazing, but good. I'd agree with it as relfects social housing, though it seems odd sentiment from a blurb which is distinctly rightist in nature. Are they asking for MORE spending on public housing? We've never recovered from the last right-wing approach to social housing, the right-to-buy/prevention of building idiocy.
It doesn't even bother to police their drug taking and dealing very much
What? We spend an absolutely absurd amount of money policing drug use and sale. Masses. Far, far, far too much and tie up far too much police time on it.
There are thousands of decent people in Tottenham who work hard, try to do the best for their kids and who are no doubt appalled by what happenned. But like the 27 children who want to learn, but who can't because of the disruptive behaviour of three trouble-makers at the back of the class, the criminals who rioted and looted on Saturday cowed them in to submission.
Can't argue with that.
If you want people to behave irresponsibly, take responsibility away from them. The Welfare State has been taking responsibility away from people for decades and it has led us here, to the rioting and looting we saw in Tottenham and elsewhere over the weekend."
Well lets look around the world at the social problems mentioned above that nations suffer and see how they relate to who's got the larger welfare states and who's got the smaller ones. I'll wager the evidence will not support this assertion.
-
(http://s25.stockmediaserver.com/imgs36/TH170/Everett/MCDLIOF_EC066_H.jpg)
Nail 'em up I say!
-
Now I'm REALLY scared! Boris is walking the streets of London!!!
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
-
See this video: http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841 (http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/10339841)
Scum!
It's not an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, I'm never going to be able to earn it", it's an attitude of "If I want it, I might as well take it, because I can and there are no consequenses". And " Why would I work 8 hours a day while I can make the same money with two hours of husslin'? "
Is anyone disputing that they're scum? When we're all in agreement (as is pretty much the entire nation, including the rioters themselves) it's far more useful to actually think about why this situation has arisen than reactionary moaning. If it's just that they're all scum who can't be arsed to work why isn't this behaviour constant and always on this scale? There are things needing done to prevent the attitudes arising that lead to this. Calling them names, howling about getting the army out and demanding watercannons and rubber bullets be used and other such nonsense that's being mentioned left right and centre will have zero effect. Increased prison sentences for shoplifting and vandalism will have no effect. Harsher prisons will have zero effect. All the usual rightist ideas will have zero effect, this demonstrable. Grass roots work is what's needed.
I agree, but grass roots work is not really going to stop London burning tonight and it spreading to more cities.
Obviously the authorities are worried about the message water cannons and rubber bullets sends out but they need to do something or innocent people will die in their homes.
I think the goverment will have to have a long hard look at the root cause but at the minute they need to stop the violence by whatever means works.
-
Which brings me back to my earlier point.
Shoot them all.
Shoot them dead.
Shoot them now!
I agree entirely.
If they're dead they cant do it again.
-
Oh, and I'm not buying that 'economically disadvantaged' bull either.
Have a good look at what those thugs are wearing, especially the footwear.
I can only empathise with the people who's house was set on fire, or car, people who's shops were looted and destroyed.
-
Have a good look at what those thugs are wearing, especially the footwear.
:lol:
-
Just got home after hearing that the street I live on is a target tonight. A few coppers milling about and all the shops are shuttered. There were 3 riot vans outside my front door from Manchester but they've all just moved off somewhere else. Wish us luck and stay safe everyone in the troubled areas.
-
I can only empathise with the people who's house was set on fire, or car, people who's shops were looted and destroyed.
Who's empathising?
Seeing that there is a wider social context is not condoning nor apologising for anyone's actions. That thinking has been to blame for the embarrassing news coverage we've been getting hammered with for three days.
-
Don't think anyone's picked up on this yet in this thread. The Sony hub that was burnt down held the inventory for 150 independant record labels.
http://pitchfork.com/news/43474-sonypias-warehouse-burns-in-uk-riots/ (http://pitchfork.com/news/43474-sonypias-warehouse-burns-in-uk-riots/)
That's around 5 miles from me. Apparently kids on bikes did it!
-
As it is basically a culture problem, how do you think it in the long term?
The wealth gap has expanded essentially due to low skills industries moving overseas while the economy focuses on the more profitable yet higher skilled areas of inventing and marketing products. There by saturating the labour market with low skill workers without the demand to cater for them, therefore reducing parents ability to act as positive role models for children and removing their sense of self identity.
-
Everybody's jumpy this evening, rushing to get home, rumours of stations closing and people being sent home at lunchtime.... the troublemakers must be loving it, everyone's dancing to their tune.
I hate this situation. Never experienced anything like it before, it's frightening even though I haven't even seen anything first-hand apart from a few broken windows.
-
'Seeing that there is a wider social context is not condoning nor apologising for anyone's actions.'
It is if it is used to provide a justificatory explanation as to why a small substratum of youths are committing acts of criminal violence. London boroughs like Lewisham or Southwark have had decades of 'grass roots' 'community' initiatives to 'understand' and help the lumpenproletariat but what they haven't had is any form of systematic discipline - whether it is at home, in school or in the streets. The credit boom of the 1990s kept them happy for a while buy giving their overindulgent mummas credit cards so they could buy £150 trainers, Playstations and smart phones. Now the credit has dried up they are just taking for themselves.
The only grassroots experiment that has been massively effective at restoring community values was the New York experiment was the zero tolerance, of course V I Lenin tried a similar thing in 1918 in Moscow with equal success. We should all stop trying to 'understand' these people and instead instill in them some community values.
-
There's no justification in anything I've posted. Nor in anything I've read elsewhere online.
Lumpenprolotariat, really? What is currently happening is the total antithesis of that label.
And of course zero-tolerance approaches are utterly absurd and simply cost the public masses of money, overcrowd prisons and set extremely frightening precedents.
-
Someone was shot dead in their car last night in Croyden.
There's no point trying to find reasons for the actions of c8nts like this. They're scum and don't give a f*ck. It's an opportunity to them to let off steam and grab what they can. They're all robbing and dealing drugs anyway i would of thought. So whats wrong with water cannon and rubber bullets? They can manage that in Belgium with a few football holloigans FFS!
-
i think tear gas would be a good option.
-
Oh, and I'm not buying that 'economically disadvantaged' bull either.
Have a good look at what those thugs are wearing, especially the footwear.
I can only empathise with the people who's house was set on fire, or car, people who's shops were looted and destroyed.
yeah, they nicked them from Foot Locker or one of the other stores they looted.
-
One thing is for sure, it doesn't appear like the government have any handle on this right now.
It'll be interesting to see the way they play it tonight - if it's left to escalate by stand-offish Policing, it will. If they go in strong-arm, it'll have the same effect. Its a tough situation for sure, but I think they have to be SEEN to be taking some kind of action.
The parents of minors involved in this stuff need to be brought to account as well - surely any parent would be wanting to keep their teenage kids in the house with this kind of thing going on.
-
Well there's an extra 10,000 police in London, which should make a difference one hopes. Or the Met need ripped apart and starting over. They've already got a rubbish track record dealing with crowds, though it can't have helped that they're in the midst of reorganisation at the top after high profile resignations.
No mention of extra forces in other cities that I've seen though. Friends have been saying there's loads of police out in Birmingham, however, vastly more than last night.
-
The parents of minors involved in this stuff need to be brought to account as well - surely any parent would be wanting to keep their teenage kids in the house with this kind of thing going on.
In Tottenham they were looting shoes in shops with their kids and even getting the kids to try them on!
-
One thing is for sure, it doesn't appear like the government have any handle on this right now.
It'll be interesting to see the way they play it tonight - if it's left to escalate by stand-offish Policing, it will. If they go in strong-arm, it'll have the same effect. Its a tough situation for sure, but I think they have to be SEEN to be taking some kind of action.
The parents of minors involved in this stuff need to be brought to account as well - surely any parent would be wanting to keep their teenage kids in the house with this kind of thing going on.
There are a LOT of riot vans around tonight. Saw nothing last night but today north of Oxford St and literally outside my flat window now, there's a ton of them. Don't know what they plan on doing but it's a much more high visibility presence tonight I think. Keeping our fingers crossed.
-
Lumpenproletariat is exactly the correct term - the ungovernable masses below the working classes who have no interest or consciousness in anything but the immediate satisfaction of their wills and the enjoyment of criminality.
and zero tolerance policies have been highly successful in American when targeted on community policing and schooling of areas containing large numbers of lawless individuals. It only sets 'dangerous' precedents (as opposed to the danger of having lumpenproletariat hoodlums mugging people?) to libertarians who wish to emphasise the supremacy of the rights of the individual over the wellbeing of the community. Zero Tolerance is not absurd at all, it is an effective means of restoring order to communities where all the liberal community programmes in the world have failed.
-
There's really rather clear class consciousness amongst these people, and an attempt to rise out of their situation (through very violent means, currently) by definition they are not lumpenproletariat.
I think putting people in jail for minor crimes at massive cost to the taxpayer is failure, personally. And you cite horrific abuses of people by the Cheka as a good example? Along with the misleading Giuliani example that's often used by people, regardless of his policies having little demonstrable effect on the crime rates which were already well in decline in New York and carried on in tandem with the general trends in other US cities without such a policy. Of course, the big economic boost and massive increases in jobs available to the poor might have had an effect. Just maybe.
-
Kudos and strength to these shop owners.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london)
-
Kudos and strength to these shop owners.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/09/london-riots-london)
Yeah that's been great. It must have really gotten up Nick Griffin's nose when he was tweeting all last night about the degenerate immigrants causing all the problems.
-
This is totally the result of poor parenting. Total cliche but that really is the root cause of all this. If the kids were brought up to make effort in their education and better themselves there wouldn't be this despondency. They expect everything handed to them on a plate.
-
Oh dear, the usual strategy of argumentum ad nauseum...
There is no class consciousness in the rioting. There is a trashing of local communities including the robbing of local people's houses. The nearest we have to any example of class consciousness is a group of teen girls telling the BBC its all about recession and kill the rich and people 'not respecting them'. That is not class consciousness, those are just slogans for the media after the event. What we have is organised criminality against - and organised crime is the classic organisation of the lumpenproletariat. So the term stands.
Your criticism zero tolerance is just the standard libertarian position on this, i.e. zero tolerance caught a wave of lowering crime rates in the US. Whilst that is true, it is not the whole picture and the experience in Hartlepool and Strathclyde in the UK confirms that of New York - that policing targeted at specific crimes in a community works. Yes, it may not be the whole story but was shown to be a significant factor. Again, I would prefer this to your undefined 'grass roots' nonsense that has been tried in London again and again in places like Lewisham and Lambeth and has just point blank failed.
There is an underlying social context - but it is not poverty or social alienation, it the massive growth of city populations, the fracturing of communities by uncontrolled immigration and the collapse of tradition measures of social discipline.
-
Oh dear, the usual strategy of argumentum ad nauseum...
There is no class consciousness in the rioting. There is a trashing of local communities including the robbing of local people's houses. The nearest we have to any example of class consciousness is a group of teen girls telling the BBC its all about recession and kill the rich and people 'not respecting them'. That is not class consciousness, those are just slogans for the media after the event. What we have is organised criminality against - and organised crime is the classic organisation of the lumpenproletariat. So the term stands.
Your criticism zero tolerance is just the standard libertarian position on this, i.e. zero tolerance caught a wave of lowering crime rates in the US. Whilst that is true, it is not the whole picture and the experience in Hartlepool and Strathclyde in the UK confirms that of New York - that policing targeted at specific crimes in a community works. Yes, it may not be the whole story but was shown to be a significant factor. Again, I would prefer this to your undefined 'grass roots' nonsense that has been tried in London again and again in places like Lewisham and Lambeth and has just point blank failed.
There is an underlying social context - but it is not poverty or social alienation, it the massive growth of city populations, the fracturing of communities by uncontrolled immigration and the collapse of tradition measures of social discipline.
You're way overanalysing this.
They're a bunch of cretinous idiots who've outlived their welcome on this planet.
KILL.
-
Apparently loads of shops in the centre of Newcastle were shut early in the fear of copy-cat rioting. Lets hope not, things are bad enough as it is.
-
It's starting in Manchester now.
I don't think it is class consciousness.
The last riot here was by the Glasgow Rangers fans becuase a TV broke in Picadilly Gardens.
The last ones in London were during the student demos, the high profile arrests being Edward Woolard and Charlie Gilmour, neither what you would call poor.
When people realise they can do what they want they generally do.
-
Oh dear, the usual strategy of argumentum ad nauseum...
... :roll:
There is no class consciousness in the rioting. There is a trashing of local communities including the robbing of local people's houses. The nearest we have to any example of class consciousness is a group of teen girls telling the BBC its all about recession and kill the rich and people 'not respecting them'. That is not class consciousness, those are just slogans for the media after the event. What we have is organised criminality against - and organised crime is the classic organisation of the lumpenproletariat. So the term stands.
There is a large number of people from the same social class seeing themselves as an oppressed group who should do this to get one up on the overlords, essentially. That's class consciousness, however negative a version. It is not organised in any sense other than "Let's go smash that thing up there, now this one here".
Your criticism zero tolerance is just the standard libertarian position on this, i.e. zero tolerance caught a wave of lowering crime rates in the US.
And your support of it is the standard rightist position, supported by a vastly lower number of criminologists, oddly enough. Probably because they're all bleeding-heart, lefty fags, one imagines.
There is an underlying social context - but it is not poverty or social alienation, it the massive growth of city populations, the fracturing of communities by uncontrolled immigration and the collapse of tradition measures of social discipline.
Massive population growth of city populations?
Birmingham - in steady decline for 60 years.
Liverpool - in steady decline for 80 years.
Inner London - 75% of what it was in 1951 (though has raised 5% in the last 20 years, I'll grant you).
Greater London - 85% of what it was in 1951 (Though up 4% in the last 20 years).
The immigration one can be argued, though it's easily stated that in the UK the vast majority of "immigrants" have been here several generations and came to fill much needed jobs. Unfortunately the low paid jobs filled by those folks brought over by invitation of the government gradually vanished abroad again. Leaving the children of those folks with little in the way of job prospects in a similar class, and they were fighting against institutionalised racism regardless.
But hold on. We're endorsing talking about underlying context. Wonderful! That's exactly what I was getting at. There needs to be actual discussion and not "They're scum stick 'em in the jail job done" as that simply encourages it to continue indefinitely.
-
I agree with your refinement of the immigration point, I did not mean it to be a slur on the immigrant communities themselves but on the social dislocation and poorly thought out way in which immigration has been operated by successive UK governments since the 50s.
-
On a somewhat lighter note, it's a worry when football has to be called off because of violence and everything is going fine and dandy in Glasgow.
We just can't be arsed to riot unless someone can shoehorn bigotry in, clearly.
-
Great quote from one of the community patrol vigilante groups in Enfield, "what the looters understand is a good beating". Absolutely right.
I can guarantee that if Blunkett was around he would be screaming "MACHINE GUN THEM!!!!!!" down the phone. And he would be right of course. People who act like this don't belong in the country I love.
-
Well apparently there is a group of Millwall fans 'protecting' Eltham. Why Eltham? Why not Surrey Quays or New Cross?
-
We've had a gang of youths, around a dozen or a bit more, masked and with gloves and bags, in our street here, openly threatening us and banging things. We, the neighbors here, managed to scare them away, the police came and wrote everything down, but didn't get them.
Some people here are very scared, including my wife. A few people with small kids left actually and went to relatives. The others, including us, exchanged phone numbers.
I know this should be about the big picture, why these kids are unhappy and have no perspective, but frankly most of those youths did not look British to me. At a time when I'm working till late at night to make a future for me and my wife I feel disgusted at this... situation.
We're all hoping for a quiet night here!
-
Enfield, where I am took the streets back by marching 60-70 strong and it worked. No bother at all. Although a Guardian journalist claimed they were charging down the road chanting kill pakis was complete and utter bollocks. Reading twitter regarding thatIi thought it might turn into a race riot but after Sky News broadcast their report on it that all died down.
-
It's starting in Manchester now.
I've returned early from band rehearsal tonight, given what's been going on in the city. Luckily it was quiet on my way back, and seeing the TV coverage I'm glad I don't have to go anywhere near the Arndale.
It's shocking stuff.
-
Looks like they've done dawsons in Manchester as I've just seen tv footage of the road it's on but with blokes carrying guitars away over their shoulders.
Mad world...
-
Looks like they've done dawsons in Manchester as I've just seen tv footage of the road it's on but with blokes carrying guitars away over their shoulders.
Mad world...
Kind of makes a mockery of their 'do not touch the guitars' policy.
Still, might be some bargains on ebay next week.....
-
Enfield, where I am took the streets back by marching 60-70 strong and it worked. No bother at all. Although a Guardian journalist claimed they were charging down the road chanting kill pakis was complete and utter bollocks.
Sorry Johnny, who was it took the streets back and who was supposed to be chanting?
-
Enfield, where I am took the streets back by marching 60-70 strong and it worked. No bother at all. Although a Guardian journalist claimed they were charging down the road chanting kill pakis was complete and utter bollocks.
Sorry Johnny, who was it took the streets back and who was supposed to be chanting?
Sorry i missed a bit! A large group of Enfield's residents 60-70 strong marched to defy the rioters and were falsely accused of racist chanting.
-
My band practice was cancelled tonight. Apparently the studio was worried they were going to be targetted and shut up shop, can't blame them really.
Can blame the cretinous idiots though... Hammer at the ready just in case anything happens in the night... they tried to burn down the local McDonald's last night...
-
Enfield, where I am took the streets back by marching 60-70 strong and it worked. No bother at all. Although a Guardian journalist claimed they were charging down the road chanting kill pakis was complete and utter bollocks.
Sorry Johnny, who was it took the streets back and who was supposed to be chanting?
Sorry i missed a bit! A large group of Enfield's residents 60-70 strong marched to defy the rioters and were falsely accused of racist chanting.
Just heard about that on the radio, well done!
Asians in Southall out with swords... no trouble there either.... EXCELLENT.
-
where i am seems like a bit of an oasis. I went out and hour or so ago expecting everything to be closed, some stuff was, but some restaurants are open, the pubs are open, off licences... there is an open mic night going on...
...load of police driving around and helicopters overhead mind!
-
where i am seems like a bit of an oasis. I went out and hour or so ago expecting everything to be closed, some stuff was, but some restaurants are open, the pubs are open, off licences... there is an open mic night going on...
When I got home tonight, about 7.30, it was still light and sunny - nice evening - but nearly everything on Streatham High Road was closed, even the supermarkets. Lots of places boarded up as extra precautions.
The only places open were a couple of pubs and, weirdly, Pizza Express!
-
when i was in dalston last night... the only place open was chicken cottage... riot proof!
-
Looks like they've done dawsons in Manchester as I've just seen tv footage of the road it's on but with blokes carrying guitars away over their shoulders.
Mad world...
Crazy :(
-
Just been having a look for Nick Griffin's Twitter to see what he's been saying to all this. I thought the top three google hits were all parodies. Alas, one of them is the real one...
-
Just been watching some of the coverage on Sky channel 847. There are groups in Birmingham protecting all religions and all communities that they can. Some of them are carrying spears and huge curved blade swords. They seem like a really good bunch of people just standing up for what they believe in and wanting to protect citizens.
-
Just been watching some of the coverage on Sky channel 847. There are groups in Birmingham protecting all religions and all communities that they can. Some of them are carrying spears and huge curved blade swords. They seem like a really good bunch of people just standing up for what they believe in and wanting to protect citizens.
Of course if they actually injure anyone with those spears and swords they will get prosecuted....
-
BBC seems slow with accurate updates.
big curved blades sounds like Sikh stuff. shastar vidya and all that, i wouldnt play about with those guys.
-
Of course if they actually injure anyone with those spears and swords they will get prosecuted....
Yep. The guy doing the reporting did keep telling them to not do anything stupid. Their response was that they intend to scare anyone who tries damaging or looting anything.
BBC seems slow with accurate updates.
big curved blades sounds like Sikh stuff. shastar vidya and all that, i wouldnt play about with those guys.
Sikh indeed. I most definitely wold not want to play about with them. They seemed very level headed to me but only a fool (or group of fools) would try to call their bluff.
-
I don't know much about the religion but it's very inclusive of other faiths and born out of a very violent period of time. The martial art some of the do (Shastar Vidya means science of blades/weapons i think) is crazy. It basically allows them to become human blenders. I think its also called Gatka. I looked into it once. heres a bad video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFBZjurSPuc&feature=related
-
Looking at the clips in Manchester the police seemed to be a lot more agressive than the met. Rather than just standing in a line with riot shields they were actively chasing and hitting rioters with truncheons and pushing them back. I saw the rioters try to rob a jewlery shop but were quickly set up on by plain clothed police who did not mess about in arresting them.
-
Katharine Birbalsingh could very well be hitting the nail on the head in this column in The Telegraph.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100161/no-wonder-these-kids-think-stealing-trainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100161/no-wonder-these-kids-think-stealing-trainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/)
-
Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said.
That's genuine :?
Also, after Boris' calls for no Police cuts today, the Home Office response:
"The urgent need to take action to address our budget deficit is clear from events across the world right now. The reductions in the police budget for the Spending Review period are manageable. There is no question that the police will still have the resources to do their important work. At the end of this Spending Review period, the police will still have enough officers to deploy in the kind of numbers we've seen in the past couple of days."
Katharine Birbalsingh is a muppet. But I can't be bothered to talk about her whole article in detail when she's trying to sell flat lies like this: "Even the sensible people (and there have been a few) refuse to denounce ALL of the violence. Brixton, Croydon, Birmingham are bad, but Tottenham somehow was ‘understandable’. Come again? You mean sometimes looting and violence are acceptable?"
I've seen perhaps a handful of folk saying that the violence in Tottenham was understandable - and they were all rioters. I've seen lots of people say the protest was justified, but all denouncing the violence in the next (or previous) breath - when they've actually been allowed to by the media.
Then the hyperbole of comparing rioters to the gunman/bomber in Norway, and the assumptions about Mark Duggan...
It goes without saying these riots need tackled hard and fast now, claiming that everyone who doesn't simply say "This is appalling" is making excuses is incredibly unhelpful.
-
Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said.
That's genuine :?
Food for thought, isn't it?
-
I coming across lots that hopefully push some people to take our media's take on what happens abroad with a pinch of salt some times.
Iranian newspaper Resalat reports. In an editorial on "Cameron's iron fist", the paper says the unrest is the consequence of the UK government's "human rights violations".
There's a lot on the BBC News "live riots" page.
Three dead in Birmingham last night :(
-
when i was in dalston last night... the only place open was chicken cottage... riot proof!
do you live in Dalston now, or still out west? if your in Dalston, its a stones throw away from me - fancy a jar?
-
when i was in dalston last night... the only place open was chicken cottage... riot proof!
do you live in Dalston now, or still out west? if your in Dalston, its a stones throw away from me - fancy a jar?
I live in New Cross, so not far really. little ride on the east london line. West got me down, man.
-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm
this is a pretty good radio report on the rioting, best i've seen/heard in fact.
-
when i was in dalston last night... the only place open was chicken cottage... riot proof!
do you live in Dalston now, or still out west? if your in Dalston, its a stones throw away from me - fancy a jar?
I live in New Cross, so not far really. little ride on the east london line. West got me down, man.
thats not bad at all! i'm moving this weekend (withinsame area), but once i'm settled in lets hook up.
-
sounds good to me
-
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/363/the_disastrous_death_of_common_sense
-
I only got through reading half of that before I wanted to kick that guys teeth out.
-
Heard from a friend in Essen that rioting might spread to Berlin according to some German press.
-
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/363/the_disastrous_death_of_common_sense
Ah. Of course.
"It is because they is black, innit?"
:roll:
-
Just heard its popping off in Angel. some friends of a colleague who live there messaged his wife.
-
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
:lol:
-
loving the robocop one!
EDIT: Army Reservists are on standby, so one tells me.
-
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/363/the_disastrous_death_of_common_sense
What a complete and utter moron.
These are my favourite bits (by favourite I obviously mean "bits that made me even more livid than the rest of his bullshit"):
...strongly multiculturalist philosophy.
A central part of this philosophy is to deny if not denounce (literally to de-construct and de-legitimise) traditional values and unifying symbols.
Well that's just a lie. Multiculturalist philosophy is the embracing of the fact that virtually without exception all traditional values of cultures are the same at their base.
Under multiculturalism what precisely unites us? The Monarchy? Sneer - white privilege and oppression. The Law? Sneer - rich man's justice. British history? Sneer - written by imperialist winners. British economic success? Sneer - just the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor. The British public? Sneer - bring in more immigrants and let them stay in ghettos not learning English. British democracy or even democracy itself? Sneer - a tool of oppression and false consciousness. British literature? Sneer - too many dead white men. Family values? Sneer - repressed middle-class neurosis. Separating Right from Wrong? Sneer - oppressive class-based value judgements. And so on.
Ignoring the obscene condescension, hyperbole and pandering to bigots writing style of a total prick. What unites us? BEING HUMANS.
This clown wants a hammer in the face. Quite aside from anything else, multiculturalism has zero to do with these riots. But why miss a chance to push the agenda.
-
Seriously, nfe.
Isn't it time you 'gutmenschen' took your heads out of your @sses?
http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Gutmensch.html (http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Gutmensch.html)
All you do is call people with different opinions than yours liars, morons, pricks, muppets etc.
You're not debating or disussing, you're trolling.
You have no arguments only sophistries, ideoligical mantras and name calling.
-
EDIT: No, I can't be arsed. I'm overcome with indifference.
I'll tip my hat to the few folks who've pm'd me and sit back from this nonsense.
-
All you do is call people with different opinions than yours liars, morons, pricks, muppets etc.
You're not debating or disussing, you're trolling.
You have no arguments only sophistries, ideoligical mantras and name calling.
I don't often agree with nfe, but I don't think any of that is true at all!
I believe he's always absolutely genuine and reasoned in his arguments (even if it is infuriatingly impossible to out-debate him or get him to concede a point on anything! :P )
-
Anyway, another development:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429)
-
Seriously, nfe.
Isn't it time you 'gutmenschen' took your heads out of your @sses?
http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Gutmensch.html (http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Gutmensch.html)
All you do is call people with different opinions than yours liars, morons, pricks, muppets etc.
You're not debating or disussing, you're trolling.
You have no arguments only sophistries, ideoligical mantras and name calling.
I'm just going to assume you're drunk. This came out of nowhere and seems to bear no basis in reality...
-
i was just discussing these ideas (benefits and loss of housing) in work... while I'm in no doubt it would upset the guilty parties, where do they go and what do they do?
I don't want to sound like I feel sorry for them, but I'd be worried about the overall long term problem of a groups probability to inflict damage in whatever criminal way getting worse. I had a friend who went to prison for vandalism, when released he had learned his lesson, but because of what he'd done, he couldn't get a job, had no family, no way to earn money, nowhere to live, no address, no dole. He tried his best for as long as he could before he turned to shoplifting just to eat. He got caught by the police but the policeman that caught he just spoke to him calmly, said if he wrote him up he'd be going straight back to prison... but he understood my friends situation and let him go. My friend then sorted his life out, found a place, got a van, then moved to italy to work fixing moutain bikes on big trails. such a good ending, but SOOOO easy for that not to have happened.
Now, I dunno how many of these scumbags are actually claiming benefits for housing or jobseekers, but if the burden of looking after them is taken off the state (freeing up our taxes) then do they end up homeless? a burden on charities which are having funding cut? does the rate of homelessness rise? who will hire these people? worst case scenario might be that the you take these people and throw them onto the streets with absolutely no means to get by like the rest of society and the only thing they can do to live is turn to crime and we know they are pretty good at that and don't care about victims already... I'd actually move out of london if this happened because I'd be terrified of leaving my house.
I don't have an answer. I'm not being sympathetic with the guilty. I just wonder how some of these ideas will pan out. I agree people need to be punished but some of these suggestions feel a bit too knee jerk to me when trying to consider the long term effect.
-
Making a point for discussion of 'causes' not 'excuses'
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/2011/08/10/moralism-and-rioters/
-
"A conservative is a liberal who got mugged...."
Hopefully the signs are good that the British people (black/brown/white) have just taken a collective jump to the right.
"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" Lady Thatcher (Peace Be Upon Her) :D :D
-
See that guy from Salford on the news?
saying he can't get jobs because of all the immigrants and what not, so he supports going and smashing shops up.
He didn't appear to be a clear thinking gent though.
EDIT
Surely a REAL conservative is someone who has never had to live with the threat of being mugged? PDT_002
-
One thing I love about this forum is that there ARE opinionated people that contribute, and they cover all political opinions.
Some of us are more vocal than others, and sometimes the sparks do fly, but I don't think that any of us are ever particularly unreasonable.
Except for Roo, obviously.
I'm quite a lefty, but I've definitely had my assumptions challenged on this forum, and I think I'm a better person for it.
One thing I'll note about this debate: often we're talking at cross purposes. Firstly, what causes a population to behave in this way, and secondly how you tactically deal with the result. The two are different, I think.
Mark.
-
One thing I'll note about this debate: often we're talking at cross purposes. Firstly, what causes a population to behave in this way, and secondly how you tactically deal with the result. The two are different, I think.
Mark.
I agree. I'm worried the discussion about causes out in the world beyond this forum will be brushed aside because of the intensity of the violence. when its all done with, I just don't want to live in country where I feel scared of the police, where all protests are met with intense police tactics, with huge slums and increased crime in our inner cities. Building more prisons and increasing sentences doesn't seem to work. I don't want to live in America the remix.
-
One thing I love about this forum is that there ARE opinionated people that contribute, and they cover all political opinions.
Some of us are more vocal than others, and sometimes the sparks do fly, but I don't think that any of us are ever particularly unreasonable.
Except for Roo, obviously.
I agree, the cause of societies problems are too complex....
This cause of this forum's problems are simple... Roo.
That b'stard wouldn't even loot a telecaster if it was Seafoam Green! :P :P
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzDQCT0AJcw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzDQCT0AJcw)
For the Darcus Howe Fans?
Whereas I would love to be able to empathise with the disgruntled "Yoofs", they are not (IMO, YMMV) voicing dissatisfaction with social inequalities, but being opportunist thugs.
I also don't support the idea that the police just go around blowing peoples heads off although that idea/conspiracy has been doing the rounds on facebook.
To anyone affected by the riots around the country, I hope that you and your families remain safe and secure.
-
I watched a doc Darcus Howe made one about the company Egg. it was pretty interesting and that was really all I knew him for... but some of the stuff he's been ranting about just seems like attaching his own agenda to mindless unjustified violence.
Although the "yootdem" aren't really the voice of anything, it doesn't stop them from potentially being the result of factors like social inequalities. That isn't an argument for justification, it's something to be talked about in future when trying to reduce the potential for this to happen again rather than just increasing police powers to deal with the product of yoof gon wyld.
Roo is a closet tele lover. Self hating tele lovers... its an old cliche.
-
"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" Lady Thatcher (Peace Be Upon Her) :D :D
Really?
http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/ (http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/)
Sick, but I lived through the 80's...
-
The trouble with that Mary Evans blog/article is that she seems to think that a minority of teenagers rioting and looting opens up the need for political dialogue amongst the [inevitably chattering] classes [only] but that the expression of local citizen anger when they call for the swift protection of their communities and the punishment of the transgressors of community norms is a bone headed closing down of political debate. I can equally see the responses from annoyed citizens as a cry for a rethink of how communities are governed and what values and behaviour the community expects from those that live in it and recieve its aid and protection.
Clearly, there are underlying causes that need to be addressed - the nature of urban overcrowding, the failure of the education system, community disclocation, rising unemployment, the psychological problems of consumerism, the breakdown of family and community relationships etc etc. Obviously academics in politics departments like Professor Mary Evans have a vested interest in obtaining the next government/NGO grant to research why these thing went on but I am not convinced that the closed doors of academia are going to give people the practical output they require - if there is to be some kind of dialogue/debate it really should be community centred, not just a means for academics to meet their required number of publication points in academic journals.
I must also say that I had lunch with today with some public law barristers who were rubbing their hands over the possibility of a legal aid cheque from a public enquiry. I was slightly peturbed by this, but I suppose that where there's muck there's brass.
-
I'm quite a lefty, but I've definitely had my assumptions challenged on this forum, and I think I'm a better person for it.
One thing I'll note about this debate: often we're talking at cross purposes. Firstly, what causes a population to behave in this way, and secondly how you tactically deal with the result. The two are different, I think.
Absolutely. If we could get to the grass roots of the problem and solve it - which is obviously desirable - we won't actually see the benefits for 20-30 years (lefty). But we also need a much more "instant" way of dealing with the current symptoms of that problem (righty!)
I'm instinctively a softy liberal (small L), I suppose..... but people who commit crimes of violence and intimidation - bullies, in simple terms - make me utterly furious. I don't really care why they do what they do, it's too late to fix that..... just put them somewhere where they can't hurt anyone again!
Reminds me of a quote from the film Manhunter:
As a child, my heart bleeds for him. Someone took a little boy and turned him into a monster. But as an adult... as an adult, he's irredeemable............ As an adult, I think someone should blow the sick $%&# out of his socks.
-
Believe it or not, I am genuinely reasonable about a whole host of matters. Of course, I love to live up my persona online, as we all do to some extent. With that said, I might consider looting telecasters if the dire need was firewood, but only under those circumstances :D
And I am pretty squarely in the liberal camp politically speaking, but on certain issues, as Philly put it, I also get utterly furious. You're all just avoiding my solution because it's really rather right-wing, but you have to admit, burning all these arseholes and their arsehole parents (and capturing that energy as heat) has a hell of a lot of benefits to the rest of society, and really very few drawbacks!
:)
-
I'd like to summarise with some Red Dwarf quotes:-
Liberal (Rimmer who has lost his anger)
The time for talking is over. Now call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit it fast, with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign.
Right Wing (Lister who has lost his fear)
Why don't we go down to the ammunition stores, get the nuclear warheads and then strap one to my head? I'll nut the smeggers to oblivion!
-
Its like fire and ice, and I feel my role is to be kind of in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water.
-
Conservative
_________________________
Socialist
"there's a fine line between clever and stupid" :)
-
I've always seen myself as a Liberal with socialist tendencies , but more and more I see Conservative attitudes in myself.
I'm probably like Roo and PhillyQ and it's when something angers me like the looting has....
I do wonder why so many seem to lack a MORAL COMPASS and lack a sense of right or wrong.
And before anyone jumps down my throat - Phone hacking, bribes for Police, Expenses fiddling and second homes for MPs all fail the Moral Compass test!
-
It's fun to think about how we define ourselves politically.
I was always brought up to believe that left wing/socialist was good and noble, and right wing was nasty and bad.
But it's not that simple.
Like you Jon, as I get older (and wiser?) I definitely recognise Tebbit-like utterances falling from my lips.
My wife (also a lefty) came up with a cracking solution the other day:
Small amounts of a chemical castration drug should be secreted, at source, into all McDonalds products. Because the Chavy underclass will spend disproportionately MORE time eating these products, they will, over time, reproduce less, thus ending the cycle of poverty and chavy-ness.
And she's a fan of Michael Foot!!!
:D
-
Just looking at the online press this morning, lots of rioting news but hardly anything mentions what happened last night. I would of though if it was quiet last night that should be the headline but I think they are still very much trying to keep the frenzy going.
There was a clip on BBC Manchester last night that didn't even say if it was from Wednesday or Tuesday. A quick look at Facebook Manchester riot update told me all was quet last night and the clip was from Tuesday.
I media should be trying to cool things down, not making everybody think there's still mass riots...
-
I think a good start would be to hold people responsible and acountable for their own actions. Not putting the blame so much on society and making excuses because of one's race, religion, social status etc.
'Hanging with the wrong crowd' or 'rough chilhood' 'it's a cultural thing' are not always mitigating circumstances.
BTW, hasn't anyone blamed video games yet? Or hippedy hop?
-
yes people have blamed both those.
nobody is using these things as 'excuses' for the behoviour. nobody is trying to justify the actions or these people.
Who isn't holding them responsible for their actions?
Talking about what puts people into a mindset where they think doing these things is ok, isn't about creating excuses for them.
-
My (usually reliably informed) friend reckons that the London riots didn't start because that lad got shot. After the coppers shot the lad (and then tried to frame him), there was a peaceful protest and a march of about 300 people in the area to the local police station. Outside the station, the coppers formed a line......... to cut a long story short, they kicked the shite out of a 16 year old girl and this is what sparked it off. Some reports said that she was stood in front of the line, some say she threw a stone and others say she threw a bit of paper, either way it ended up with her being beaten with batons and stamped on.
After the initial reports, nothing was ever heard about this again on the news. He reckons they've got a D Notice on it.
He’s normally quite accurate on these things and to be honest, it sounds about right. Oh yeah, and I’m talking about the proper riots and not the kids trying to get new pairs of trainers. :lol:
-
See that guy from Salford on the news?
saying he can't get jobs because of all the immigrants and what not, so he supports going and smashing shops up.
He didn't appear to be a clear thinking gent though.
I saw this too and had a bit of a rant about it to my girlfriend. Goes to show that some people in parts of the country are still breeding with vegetables :lol:
I think it was on the same report where a woman with a few kids was being interviewed outside a shop and she was sticking up for it saying stuff like 'I can't blame them, they have nothing to look forward to etc' when a random guy chirped in over her shoulder and then they started having ana rgument over it. She eventually told the guy to 'jog on', it amused me somewhat :D
-
I went to uni in salford.
I hardly saw police but I saw plenty of crazy kids and adults. I didn't live there, i commuted in.
In the first few weeks we had to have an orientation in how to go about our daily lives in salford with getting mugged, stabbed or raped. It was pretty wild.
The regeneration everyone bangs on about is around the Quays, were the BBC has moved a lot of its staff too. The BBC had to offer £2000 incentives to get some staff to move up there from London. Everytime someones says something good about Salford, its about the Quays. Salford precinct has always been a risky area to go into. I remember the Tesco there is security glass of the alchohol section inside the store. You had to get a member of staff to come unlock it if you wanted a beer.
I saw the footage, and it looks no different to how it was when I was at uni, and the locals attitudes seem the same. I wouldn't believe Cameron when he talks about how Salford has steadily improved, no doubt the Quays has but the other parts of Salford, the estates, are probably still as grim as they were 10years ago, if not longer.
-
Despite my ranting the other night, partly to blow off steam and partly to wind NFE up and partly because I half believe what I said, I find that this a good set of web pages to get some ideas on matters pertaining to these issues (although it is for the US not we):
http://www.solutionsforamerica.org/index.html
-
I don't consider political leanings to be as simple as left/right or labour/tory. I pretty much see myself as left-leaning politically, but I still believe we are WAY too soft in general in this country when it comes to discipline and punishment. These kids are taking the p*iss and talking openly about what they've done.
You see it time and time again - 'poor deprived communities' which get redeveloped only to be vandalised and turned back into the shitehole it was before. To say this infuriates me would be an understatement. Let the f*uckers rot. I do feel sorry for the kids brought up by morons such as we've been seeing - they really have no future. Kids will mirror their environment, good or bad, just to fit in and be accepted. There is no evidence of parents instilling morals in their kids these days or any basic manners.
I don't know where I'm going with this rant and don't pretend to have the answers - sometimes venting is needed, but I'd never consider venting by looting and smashing up the corner shop at the top of my street - WTF! :?
-
See that guy from Salford on the news?
saying he can't get jobs because of all the immigrants and what not, so he supports going and smashing shops up.
He didn't appear to be a clear thinking gent though.
I saw this too and had a bit of a rant about it to my girlfriend. Goes to show that some people in parts of the country are still breeding with vegetables :lol:
I think it was on the same report where a woman with a few kids was being interviewed outside a shop and she was sticking up for it saying stuff like 'I can't blame them, they have nothing to look forward to etc' when a random guy chirped in over her shoulder and then they started having ana rgument over it. She eventually told the guy to 'jog on', it amused me somewhat :D
Yep, she was an utter moron. I'm sure the world would weep at her loss; and thousands like her.
-
I went to a so called redeveloped area and it was eye opening. Maybe not an example of a general way things are done, but an interesting example as it happens. I think so called 'developers' have a lot to answer for.
My ex is from leeds and grew up in Holbeck and studied architectural history and we had a walk from Morley to Holbeck to photograph some stuff and take a look around (she wouldn't do that without me being with her due to her concerns for her safety). Holbeck is meant to be undergoing redevelopment, but it was mostly demolished tower blocks and demolished rows of terrace houses amongst neigherborhoods. It was quite bizarre. She explained to me that the jobs people used to have in that area were mostly manual labour related tasks.
The new buildings there are big office spaces for IT companies, web design, etc. Not garages, not factories. It seems the local people don't have the skillset required for the jobs being created in the area, so it just makes that place stagnant and displaces familes who have to leave homes in search for work. I guess it also has the potential to bring in a migrant workforce since the local community can't do the jobs on offer. They move into the area and you get tension. I could understand that (though I'm not an expert on it, and haven't studied it like my ex). Redevelopment and investment in an area is completely useless unless there is some thought about it. I wouldn't say london has clearly defined slums, but I think a lot of other cities might! Another example might be the redeveloped tower block in Surrey Quays. A completely negative example of urban gentrification.
Back in my home town (Burscough/Ormskirk) a bunch of offices were built about 5 years ago on the site of an old factory and they have remained more or less empty ever since. My friend has an IT company and they looked to getting one of the offices, but it was just too expensive. Seems like it was expensive for a lot of people! It's a rural market town. Who are people hoping to attract by building these things?
-
Holbeck is an absolute dive and has been for as long as i've known its existed.
It's the only place i've been where people have openly started fights with people because theyre wearing different clothes.
But that also stands for the majority of places in Leeds.
Chapeltown, Gipton, Seacroft etc are just a few that are equally as bad if not worse
-
THis makes some of those photoshop images seem poor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VW3p5Ol7oUI
-
"This was not protest, it was crime and it was done with such impunity, it begs the question, "who raised these people to behave this way?" The answer is, the state raised them. More specifically, the "Welfare State" of socialist dreams.
It houses them - badly. It educates them - badly. It doesn't even bother to police their drug taking and dealing very much and the "something for nothing" culture which pervades places like Tottenham results in them seeing the opportunity to steal as one to be taken gleefully and without consequence.
So are you saying that it would be better if the state (of socialist dreams :lol:) stopped trying to raise and educate the hooligans that are looting?
I struggle to believe that the parents of these tw@ts were doing a great job of home schooling until the woolly liberals rocked up and ruined everything through the twin evils of schooling (expenditure up from 4.5 to 6.1% of GDP 1997-2010) and weak justice (which has somehow managed to bring our prison population up 84% since 1990).
Conservative
_________________________
Socialist
"there's a fine line between clever and stupid" :)
Well I wonder which one's which?
Here's a thought- what happens when large events cause people to panic and lose sight of reason?
/rising to troll bait :lol:
-
Expenditure on schools doesn't correlate to success in education.
An effective judicial system isn't measured by the numbers incarcerated.
Both the above a self evident.
"what happens when large events cause people to panic and lose sight of reason?" - Is that supposed to constitute some kind of universal excuse or is there a specific scenario that absolves people of responsibility?
-
Saw a dozen plod file into someones house this evening. All wearing stab vests, apart from the guy with the tazer.
No wonder none of them showed their face down Purley Way on Monday if that's the ratio.
They did manage to get themselves lost first though.
Didn't see one police car on Monday night, saw loads of white vans, low loaders and ambulances mind you.
Been quite a lot of police action today, and still going on this evening.
About f****ing time
The 19 year old on the till I was talking to at Homebase the other day was crying because she couldn't get the looters out of her garden. No polis to be seen
I'm a bit bored of the all the "what's the cause" conversations on the forums and tv.
The time for that comes after the arsholes that did this get called to account, and the people we pay to stop this kind of shitee happening explain why they didn't
-
The school David Cameron called "brilliant" (Kingdale Foundation Comprehensive) is under investigation for supplying students with the answers to GCSE tests.
I don't think cutting funds to education is a good idea though. Also, how do you measure an effective judicial system? By looking at the crime rates? numbers of re-offenders? Soley increasing police powers and judges choice of longer and tougher sentences is only a small part of effective crime reduction. Sentences don't deter people who simply don't care. Ive done things in the past I knew it were wrong, I wasn't a child and I did it because I didn't care at all about the consequences and I wouldn't have cared no matter what the consequences on offer were. How do you deal with that mindset?
I have a good friend who works for a private school in london. He grew up in Birkenhead and went to public school like me. He said in the past, he would never have thought about paying to send his kids to private school out of working class principals, but now hes been to schools in london, he claims he would be forced to changed his mind. He told me if you send your kids to school in south east london, the chances of them failing to get into a good school a massively high, and then once your kid is in school, the chances of them being around disruptive scumbag kids is even higher. So how do you protect a good kid, keep them on the straight and narrow and in worthwhile education in that environment?
-
By public school you mean state comprehensive school as opposed to the usual meaning of public school which is like Eaton and Westminster?
I am a South East Londoner, I grew up in a council estate and in fact I went to school in New Cross - lucky, it was Aske's on Telegraph Hill and I spent my teenage years $%&#ing around - luckily, I got lucky in my exams and managed to break the cycle ().
However, I don't think I would send my child to a Lewisham borough state school at present (I now live in Honor Oak Park) if I had the money to afford it - they are just too full of trouble and I think this is one of the fundamental problems in estates today is a lack of positive identity. When I was younger white kids were into Iron Maiden and Judas Priest because the metal image gave them a 'hard' image and the Caribean kids got into hip hop for similar reasons, now its the gangsta image that is totally negative. How do you protect a good kid? I think you need to have a long term community based policy (hard where politics is governed by the logic of advertising agents and subject to cynical goverments looking to buy favour with tax cuts) where the local community has a voice (and not those drawn from the training cadre's of mainstream political party advancement, as local politics often becomes) to create a positive image in the area. Unfortunately, the disparate nature of our poorer boroughs make this a very difficult and long term solution. Long term and difficult is not fashionable in politics.
More than that, the greater problem is not clever good kids (as teachers in bad schools often latch onto them) but disruptive 'average' kids who could do alot better with more attention.
-
yeah. state school. now my poor education is coming out! i dont even know what kind of school i went to!
I used to live two streets up the hill from your old school then! I hear that school is a good one round here.
-
From various news sources, among the prosecuted rioters were:
A college graduate, a millionaire's daughter, a school teacher, a hair dresser, a pool guard, a mail man and a biological chef.
Are people going crazy? Is the layer of civilisation and decency that thin?
-
A biological chef? WTF is that?
-
Expenditure on schools doesn't correlate to success in education.
yes it does.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Education_index_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG)
UN education index.
An effective judicial system isn't measured by the numbers incarcerated.
I wasn't talking about effectiveness- I'm talking about your "no consequence" assertion. More people are banged up even though levels of crime have fallen, thanks to Labour.
"what happens when large events cause people to panic and lose sight of reason?" - Is that supposed to constitute some kind of universal excuse or is there a specific scenario that absolves people of responsibility?
I don't think you've caught my drift here.
-
what is a biological chef?! :lol:
I was talking to my colleague born & raised in peckham last night, he was surprised it wasn't even worse! That shocked me a little.
I'd say the layer of civilisation is pretty thin. Maybe that is the problem. I've been on a night out where my friends have been attacked for no reason by drunken bankers in the city, so peoples education and role doesn't always make a difference when it comes to morals. They say these kids don't realise they need to earn respect, fair enough, but when I deal with average people on a daily basis it's not like they are out to earn my respect... in fact they barely show me common courtesy.
London is rubbish for it. I mean, I tried to get off the train at london bridge recently, and some guy with his mate, both in their late 20's decided they would try and push onto the train while everyone was trying to get off... I find that disrespectful, they were even laughing about it, so when they tried to push past me I grabbed the first one and pushed them both back off the train, called them pricks, and waited for them to do something about what I'd said. With me incidents like that just add to a growing sense of misanthropy. It happens all the time. Maybe it annoys me more because I'm not from London and I never dealt with that stuff growing up.
maybe all people, all nations, just need to be chill with one another a likkle bit more, man.
-
Ever tried the tube with a pushchair? Fuggin nightmare.
-
Biological is what people on the continent call organic
-
Expenditure on schools doesn't correlate to success in education.
yes it does.
Kazakhstan = Rank 23
(http://images.wikia.com/scratchpad/images/a/a5/Borat.jpg)
UK = Rank 30
(http://www.epaw.co.uk/images/asbo.jpg)
-
Then & Now... in sharp relief... PDT_033 PDT_049
http://youtu.be/uCPGcNKBKwo
-
However, I don't think I would send my child to a Lewisham borough state school at present (I now live in Honor Oak Park) if I had the money to afford it - they are just too full of trouble and I think this is one of the fundamental problems in estates today is a lack of positive identity.
More than that, the greater problem is not clever good kids (as teachers in bad schools often latch onto them) but disruptive 'average' kids who could do alot better with more attention.
That is the reason my brother and his family moved from Honor Oak Park to Steyning in Sussex - for the sake of their kids, so they could have a more "old fashioned" kind of childhood - like London in the 1960s/70s rather than be embroiled in estate gang culture from the age of 4 -or as soon as they were playing outside the house
-
Someone at work showed me a picture of looters leaving a Poundland store. A Poundland Store!The whole episode was embarrassing enough for our nation without that making it worse.
-
We are a f**king international laughing stock.
Which I can't stand because the guys I know in the Army & Marines would make anyone humble.
F**K off with liberal excuses... try telling any of my military mates about them and see what you get.
-
Someone at work showed me a picture of looters leaving a Poundland store. A Poundland Store!The whole episode was embarrassing enough for our nation without that making it worse.
Is that the one with the overweight woman that had stolen a multi pack of crisps?
That gave me both a laugh but made me think what the hell is the point...
-
they probably stole the crisps to deliberately annoy Afghan PDT_001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp09Sdrw2W4
-
We are a f**king international laughing stock.
Which I can't stand because the guys I know in the Army & Marines would make anyone humble.
F**K off with liberal excuses... try telling any of my military mates about them and see what you get.
We are a f**king international laughing stock.
Which I can't stand because the guys I know in the Army & Marines would make anyone humble.
F**K off with liberal excuses... try telling any of my military mates about them and see what you get.
Is that army or marine commando as they are distinct forces and if you called one the other you'd probably lose teeth.
-
Expenditure on schools doesn't correlate to success in education.
yes it does.
Kazakhstan = Rank 23
UK = Rank 30
1=S. Korea
2=Finland
3=Hong Kong
4=Canada
5=New Zealand
6=Ireland
7=Australia
8=Liechtenstein
9=Poland
10=Sweden
international league table of reading and maths standards, based on test results in 2006.
Just because there are 4 exceptions (Kazakhstan, Cuba, couple in S. America) doesn't mean there isn't correlation.
If you seriously believe there is no correlation between quality of education and expenditure you're saying that education is independent of:
Class sizes
Teacher training
quality and amount of books
quality and amount of equipment
and the hours that children get taught between.
Cash input and attainment don't follow a perfectly linear relationship without exceptions. Of course they don't, because nothing in the real world does.
Anyone who's had a sniff of state education in the last decade knows that labour has done great things with it.
-
Did you guys read about the soldier trying to sell a Gibson he got for £20? £1900 RRP. Apart from the morality did he really need the money, I thought the Armed Forces paid well for risking your neck. Plus he could've just waited until it all died down. Or did he research. What a plonker.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v396/GrimReapo/9e2c7347.jpg)
-
The armed forces are paid pretty unfairly considering the tasks they do.
this is an amusing read that has been doing the rounds...
http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/