Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Philly Q on November 10, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
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I don't know if it's connected with their recent "illegal" timber troubles, but Gibson have suddenly started offering various guitars with "baked" or "toasted" maple fretboards. It began with the cheapo new Melody Maker models, but it seems to be creeping higher up the production line...
What do you think? I don't like it. It makes an LP Custom look like a cheapo copy.
http://www.guitarvillage.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?pid=11614&product=Gibson%3aLes+Paul+Classic+Custom+(LPCCTGTCH1)%2c+New%2c+Goldtop%2c+Inc.+Case (http://www.guitarvillage.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?pid=11614&product=Gibson%3aLes+Paul+Classic+Custom+(LPCCTGTCH1)%2c+New%2c+Goldtop%2c+Inc.+Case)
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if you look around, they're using a variety of materials. the new Les Paul juniors have obeche 'boards, and i saw something else, but i can't remember what it was :oops:
all their rosewood was confiscated, and i suppose if they bring more in from their suppliers, i suppose it would face the same issues. so while this isn't something we want to see, i don't think you can really blame them. continue production with an alternate material, or shut up shop? not really a choice. it's a choice born out of necessity. i'll judge it for myself when i get a chance to try one of the guitars. who knows, they could be a revelation!
when they go back to rosewood, who's to say the current "law case material" guitars won't become collectors items? :lol:
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thats actually quite a tasty guitar - never seen a Gold Top Custom before, for £1399 thats a good price too.
fretboard is way too light though.
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fretboard is way too light though.
+1
bit Bonamassa
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fretboard is way too light though.
+1
bit Bonamassa
agreed.
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if you look around, they're using a variety of materials. the new Les Paul juniors have obeche 'boards, and i saw something else, but i can't remember what it was :oops:
You're right, I saw one of those Juniors on a site the other day. Took me a while to connect these developments with their wood being confiscated, though. :oops: :roll:
I don't understand their "obeche" though - my Mira X is obeche, and it seems to be a soft, light (in weight and colour) wood. Not at all suitable for fretboards.
I haven't been following the case really, couldn't they just get some Indian rosewood like everyone else?
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Pardon my newbishness, but what is "Obeche"? Is it known by any other names? If not, what kind of tone does it give?
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Looks okay to me, wonder if it's brighter that RW?
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it looks weird for sure.
i quite like the feel of the stuff though.
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Pardon my newbishness, but what is "Obeche"? Is it known by any other names? If not, what kind of tone does it give?
Obeche is a soft, lightweight wood, from Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplochiton_scleroxylon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplochiton_scleroxylon)
http://www.greatart.co.uk/OBECHEWOOD-wood-wood-carving-tools.htm (http://www.greatart.co.uk/OBECHEWOOD-wood-wood-carving-tools.htm)
PRS used it for the bodies of the Mira X and Starla X models (when they first started using it they were calling it "African Basswood"). Tone-wise, my Mira X is very lively and resonant, acoustically loud and quite bright, but not thin sounding. It's extremely light - the guitar only weighs 5 pounds.
So I'm baffled to see see Gibson using it for fretboards, it must be a different species. :?
(Note - the Gibson in the link at the top of the thread has a baked maple board, not obeche!)
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Baked maple, hmmm... :?
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I haven't been following the case really, couldn't they just get some Indian rosewood like everyone else?
That's what they did !It's a crazy story coming from a crazy US law "the Lacey act"...when you read it and look at the Gibson case,you really think they're out of their mind !Anyway,Gibson's Indian Rosewood has been confiscated ...
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yes, the bizarre part is that they're not saying the wood itself is illegal. it's that Gibson are importing unfinished pieces of wood and turning them into fretboards in their US factory. what they're saying is that the boards should be finished by Indian workers. weird. i have to agree with ol' Henry that to enforce such an edict with a raid with armed officers is totally over the top. and does this mean the other guitar companies are having their fretboards (and rosewood necks) made in India? if not surely they're breaking the same law?
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I hadn't appreciated that's what it's all about. It makes no sense.
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dont understand why they dont just start using walnut, its beautiful.
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dont understand why they dont just start using walnut, its beautiful.
doesnt make the best fretboards though. its a bit soft and doesnt hold a fret well it also sounds a bit muted as a fretboard - although it would be miles better than obeche. not sure what this 'dark obeche' gibson have used on some guitars is.
this baked maple will make a good fretboard, we know maple is pretty good anyway and the baking process will push it towards the exotics in terms of hardness... but it really doesn't have the darkness people want.
there are other alternative like phenolic or there is the process of pressure cooking wood with acrylic which will make any piece of wood as hard and consistent as the best ebony - and the acrylic can be any colour you want - it goes all the way through the wood
the odd thing about the Gibson rosewood scandal is not large suppliers like LMII are still selling Indian rosewood blanks.
My understanding of the law was that everything needed some processing in India - you could not sell a massive uncut rosewood tree, but you could sell the lumber that had been processed down to a certain size. This is still the law the Indian's have been abiding by. Its the US interpretation of the law which is suddenly suggesting they should be processed into an actual product before leaving India. A fretboard would be fine, a fretboard blank is not.
So how much would it cost Gibson to set up a shop in India processing fretboard blanks into actual fretboards?
edit: i think Gibson are actually trying to make a point here. chances are these wont sell well and I think they know it. They could have used pau ferro/santos rosewood for the standards (maybe not the customs, its a bit too red). Its from south america and apparently quite abundant.
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wow, didnt know it wasnt stable enough for frets. I'd say "you learn something everyday", but I didnt learn shite yesterday :lol:
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I honestly like the idea of this. I've fallen hard for Maple fretboards recently, so this suits me nicely.
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wow, didnt know it wasnt stable enough for frets.
dont get me wrong, it would "work". I am sure somebody will have used it more than me and want to say its their favourite fretboard wood ever.
but i have not found it works very well and there are other alternatives which will work much better
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I feel a bit dirty for saying this but, whisper it, I actually quite like that Custom. I think I'd like it even better in black with black block fretboard inlay to emphasise the contrast. Heretical I know, but I feel better for saying it.
If what's been said above about rosewood products leaving India being OK but blanks not I'm wondering why everyone else (Fender, Warmoth, PRS et al) isn't being clobbered by this? I'm sure I must have missed something.
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It does seem odd.
It seems like it forces US businesses to set up more overseas labour? That doesn't seem like the American way of doing things to me.
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I feel a bit dirty for saying this but, whisper it, I actually quite like that Custom. I think I'd like it even better in black with black block fretboard inlay to emphasise the contrast. Heretical I know, but I feel better for saying it.
Burn the witch!!! :twisted:
For me, ebony boards should be pretty much compulsory for black guitars (especially if the headstock is also black) - even rosewood tends to look a bit pasty.
(Of course I would make exceptions to that rule for black Strats and Teles with maple necks!)
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there are other alternative like phenolic or there is the process of pressure cooking wood with acrylic which will make any piece of wood as hard and consistent as the best ebony - and the acrylic can be any colour you want - it goes all the way through the wood
any colour you want, eh? interesting :)
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there are other alternative like phenolic or there is the process of pressure cooking wood with acrylic which will make any piece of wood as hard and consistent as the best ebony - and the acrylic can be any colour you want - it goes all the way through the wood
any colour you want, eh? interesting :)
Washburn did a series of guitars with that stuff, and people were absolutely up in arms over it. Why didn't that catch on?
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yeah, washburn and a few others have used phenolic - which is usually a paper based material set in resin
Dont think any manufacturers have used acrylized wood yet - but i made gwem a strat neck with acrylized birdseye maple fretboard a few years back. That was natural and looked just like any other maple fretboard - but felt more like ebony and needs no finish. There is also a bass down cornwall with an identical fretboard i made some years ago
I also did a bass with a acrylized maple top that had been done with cranberry coloured acrylic and it looked like a direct stain, except it was the same colour all the way through
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The epiphone Jeff waters annihilation V has a phenolic fretboard. I personally love the feel of it.
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Makes sense, they've impounded their wood store I guess, so they are forced to make due with what they can get quickly and in sufficient quantities.
A friend of mine has a Hagstrom strat and it uses an artificial "ebony" fretboard; the guitar is actually very nice and more than impressive for its price.
I agree with Thrull though, there are plenty of other wood options like walnut, or, if I may add, swamp ash (already used in the past), ovangol (used by Framus a lot), Korina etc.
Gibson just need to get past their tradition of using 3-4 woods only and be a bit more adventurous.
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I'm a bit wary of Gibson being "adventurous"...
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I'm a bit wary of Gibson being "adventurous"...
+1
Fine if they're experimenting with different woods, of good quality, to see if they're genuinely worthwhile alternatives.
But bad if they're really saying "we couldn't get the stuff we wanted to use, but we managed to get this old shitee cheap...."
Maybe it's time to give in to Gibson GAS, before they switch the spec of that model I wanted....
Body: Superglue-impregnated balsa, with lead-shot-filled "tone chambers" for improved weight distribution!
Neck: "Heat-treated" old matchsticks, cemented with Tite-Bond adhesive for improved strength and guaranteed no dead spots!
Fretboard: Stained birch "reclaimed" from Henry J's kitchen floor refurbishment! Innovative parquet inlays!
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Worst part is, that's infinitely more likely as long as that toss-pot CEO of theirs is still running things. :(
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Maybe it's time to give in to Gibson GAS, before they switch the spec of that model I wanted....
Body: Superglue-impregnated balsa, with lead-shot-filled "tone chambers" for improved weight distribution!
Neck: "Heat-treated" old matchsticks, cemented with Tite-Bond adhesive for improved strength and guaranteed no dead spots!
Fretboard: Stained birch "reclaimed" from Henry J's kitchen floor refurbishment! Innovative parquet inlays!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: PDT_003
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Gibson just need to get past their tradition of using 3-4 woods only and be a bit more adventurous.
they have tried!
back when henry was a member of the rainforest alliance they had their smartwood range. ncie guitars, but they didn't exactly sell well
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back when henry was a member of the rainforest alliance they had their smartwood range. ncie guitars, but they didn't exactly sell well
I had a SmartWood LP - it was good, thin body and a belly cut on the back. Nice workmanship without any thick finish to hide flaws. Wish I still had it really, I could put my Emeralds in it.
They only went halfway though - only the top and fretboard were exotic timbers, the rest of the guitar was mahogany.
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here is some info on the problems at gibson - both the first raids and the most recent ones. and apparently LMI (who supply gibson, and a lot more of the industry) are now being investigated too. so it will now start to affect most other US guitars makers:
Re quoted from Duke of Pearl - Chuck Erikson. He is also having issues due to the lacey act
2009 involves woods illegaly logged in protected Malagasy forests, which had been "seized in place" at Roger Thunam's yard by the government under orders not to be sold or moved -- but Gibson's man on the scene told the factory that although illegal he could get them into the "gray market" by laundering them through the German wood broker Nagle (whose owners also own Luthiers Mercantile). The woods themselves, not the Gibson company, are named as the defendant, but since wood has no personal rights no charges need to be filed. Meanwhile, Gibson is refusing to sign interrogatory documents stating that the seized wood really did originate in Madagascar and their lawyers keep filing stays of motion, a defense tactic which prevents the courts from bringing charges on the company. If Gibson does admit the woods origin, they'll lose their claim to get them released. The courts are getting tired of this game, and may overrule and proceed with charges, since the delays are now at the point of interfering with a criminal investigation.
The 2011 raids are about legally harvested woods, but supposedly due to a series of paperwork errors the shipment intended for LMI as the consigneee (who were in turn selling them incrementally to Gibson) was mistakenly declared as going to Gibson as the consignee, and since Gibson was already being investigated this discrepancy understandably triggered the most recent raids and confiscations. The 10mm thick fingerboard blanks left India under tariff code 9209 (parts for musical instruments) as approved my India's Ministry of Trade in "clarification letters", but were intended to enter the U.S. as 4407 items (sawn wood or logs over 6mm thick, a product classification which India has made illegal to export). Switching tariff numbers on a shipment isn't kosher, but to make things even worse a new employee at the brokerage arbitrarily changed the number to 4408 (veneers under 6mm thick). BUT...since tariff classes and definitions are determined by the World Customs Organization (WCO) through an approval process of the 170 subscribing nations, neither the U.S. nor India are authorized to redefine those product classes regardless of how many "clarification letters" are generated. Fingerboard blanks don't at all qualify as 9209 ready-to-use "bolt-on" instrument parts, but instead exactly fit the legal description of 4407 sawn woods.
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PRS have many of their necks made in India. My wife's friend's family own the company who make them. Next time I am in India I am going to go to visit them and see how they ship them. I don't think they do anything other than build the neck and possibly install the truss rod (if they are gluing the fingerboards in place they would have to). This would mean that they will probably be OK with the law.
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i dont see why gibson or LMI cant do something similar - it wouldnt cost much to set up a small shop in india making 'guitar parts'
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PRS have many of their necks made in India. My wife's friend's family own the company who make them. Next time I am in India I am going to go to visit them and see how they ship them. I don't think they do anything other than build the neck and possibly install the truss rod (if they are gluing the fingerboards in place they would have to). This would mean that they will probably be OK with the law.
Now that truly surprises me.
I wonder how much of the building they do? Neck shaping? Fret slots? Or would it be basically just gluing a fretboard blank to a neck blank then sending it to the USA for all other work?
I had no idea these strange rules existed. :?
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Thats an abomination, NOT a Custom.
This is a Les Paul Custom.No weight relieving and long tenon.Proper.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/marantz1300/Gibson/SAM_0089.jpg)
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/marantz1300/Gibson/100_2252.jpg)
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Cheers for that info Wez - very interesting stuff there. It took me a few minutes to get my head around it - I'm sure the reality is even more convoluted than that!