Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Lezard on December 31, 2011, 05:01:07 AM
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Anyone have any Idea why this is so much less expensive than a 335?
http://www.thomann.de/ie/gibson_midtown_custom_vsb.htm
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It has a flat top & back, like a Junior or Special, rather than the carved top & back of a 335, etc.
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.......and also the Fretboard wood is something strange !
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Richlite is a dense material made from partially recycled paper and phenolic resin. Phenolic resin is made of formeldahyde and phenol. Individually, these are potent chemicals, but create a harmless, inert substance when combined. The paper is soaked in phenolic resin, then molded and baked into net shape in a heated form or press.
^Just screams TONE dosen't it .
Thanks guys.
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Perhaps they should have called it : The Gibson Federal Custom 8)
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Formaldehyde + phenol = bakelite
so that's a guitar made from 1950s toilet seats right there
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haha, correction ... 1950s kitchen work surfaces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richlite
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Kitchen surfaces you say? Well, it appears that Gibson have outdone themselves here. Not even close to chucking the kitchen sink into this one!
I'm sure there will be some positive spin from dear Henry at some point.
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Don't knock it, no one's going to raid their factory for illegal Richlite.
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haha, correction ... 1950s kitchen work surfaces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richlite
So it's a cooking guitar? :lol:
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Richlite? More like Sh!tlite. A very odd choice of neck material - in fact you couldn't bake it up.
A few people on the My Les Paul forum have been singing this guitars praises - they are positively doughy eyed about it. I'm looking forward to it getting favourable reviews in certain guitar publications.
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A friend of mine has stuff like that on his 300€ Hagstrom strat. I actually like that guitar a lot, but I'd be insulted if I had this plastic wood cr@p on one of my Gibson's. I already think the "toasted maple" they have started using is a disgrace.
Companies such as Framus (and probably many others I don't know) have shown that you can make excellent guitars from less well-known tonewoods. There's no need for Gibson to make fake ebony/rosewood.
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I have actually a played a few of the epiphone jeff waters flying Vs that have phenolic fretboards and whilst strange it gives an awesome feel
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For $%&# sake don't say that out loud or Afhan will be here bollocks out offering 'awesome feels'.
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A friend of mine has stuff like that on his 300€ Hagstrom strat. I actually like that guitar a lot, but I'd be insulted if I had this plastic wood cr@p on one of my Gibson's. I already think the "toasted maple" they have started using is a disgrace.
Companies such as Framus (and probably many others I don't know) have shown that you can make excellent guitars from less well-known tonewoods. There's no need for Gibson to make fake ebony/rosewood.
i dont have a problem with alternative materials. Richlite works fine and i can see why they would choose to use it on this guitar.
tbh, it will be more consistent than the rosewood and ebony they were using anyway, so may actually improve things.
now for smaller manufacturers, alternative woods are great, but for gibson the problem will be relatively consistent supply of fingerboard grade stock. Most of those other alternative fretboard woods are also borderline endangered and i am glad gibson have gone for something more sustainable instead
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I think it's really interesting to try alternative materials. If it sounds good, feels good and looks OK then I have no problem with it. I'm impressed at them for giving it a shot.
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I must admit I quite like it and the price is interesting this way.
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go to the martin website and see how much you have to spend before you get anything other than black richlite fretboards and bridges, seems to be around the $2300 mark at the moment. When it was introduced it was only the below $1000 x-series, but now its a proven material, gives consistent results and is more plentiful than any alternative they seem to be pushing it up the range. they even sometimes call it 'FSC® Certified Black Richlite' which i guess means even the paper its made from is sustainably sourced
but martin have been happily incorporating alternative materials and construction for a good few years now without too much fuss from anyone . i think there HPL back and sides feel quite plasticy and the multi lam necks look like they come from ikea. But the tone of a martin still comes mostly from the solid spruce top. This makes even the cheapest ones nice sounding players instruments, if not quite the more refined appearance and tone of an all solid wood handmade acoustic
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I don't particularly like the look of the guitar, but I take Wez's point about "Richlite" probably being more consistent than timber*. I think I'd prefer it to the "baked maple" Gibson are using on other new models.
(* although as a typical luddite guitar enthusiast, I'd be reluctant to actually choose it over rosewood or ebony!)
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Yeh, and as an old luddite guitar player....
It aint f**king WOOD !!!! :x
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Kind of reminds me of a guitar a few years back that used no wood at all. Can't recall what make it was although the model being reviewed was green, had a double cut away body and a strange looking fret board.
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Evidently Gibson aren't shipping any of the traditional guitars at the moment because of a lack of Rosewood & Ebony for the fingerboards.
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Weren't the original Steinbergers made of something similar? - they had a great tone.
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I played one of those new SG juniors Gibson are doing at the minute with the baked maple boards and was really impressed by the tone and feel - the notes really snap and jump out at you.
They're doing them on a range of LP Customs too for £1399 and they look great (well, the one I saw today was anyway). People are always complaining about the price of Gibsons and these guitars are priced pretty reasonably.
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Weren't the original Steinbergers made of something similar? - they had a great tone.
yes, they had phelonic fretboards. really nice feel.
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They're doing them on a range of LP Customs too for £1399 and they look great (well, the one I saw today was anyway). People are always complaining about the price of Gibsons and these guitars are priced pretty reasonably.
I'm sure they're good (I've been in a Gibson-positive mood recently), but I can't quite get over the sight of a Custom with a lighter-coloured fretboard - it has to be ebony, or at least something which looks like it!
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They're doing them on a range of LP Customs too for £1399 and they look great (well, the one I saw today was anyway). People are always complaining about the price of Gibsons and these guitars are priced pretty reasonably.
I'm sure they're good (I've been in a Gibson-positive mood recently), but I can't quite get over the sight of a Custom with a lighter-coloured fretboard - it has to be ebony, or at least something which looks like it!
I tried a Flying V Melody maker with the burnt maple board and decided I liked the material. However:
* Agree it has to be black in colour for an LP custom
* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
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* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
You mean the "ridge" you get along the line where the maple fretboard meets the (painted) mahogany part of the neck?
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* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
You mean the "ridge" you get along the line where the maple fretboard meets the (painted) mahogany part of the neck?
yes, that is exactly what i mean
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* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
You mean the "ridge" you get along the line where the maple fretboard meets the (painted) mahogany part of the neck?
yes, that is exactly what i mean
Nearly all the Gibsons I've ever owned (even Custom Shop ones) suffer from that phenomenon.
It's where they scr@pe the coloured paint off the binding (or edge of the fretboard) before applying clear coats over the top. I've never understood why you find it on Gibsons but rarely on other brands....
Haven't you got that issue on your other Gibson Vs?
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* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
You mean the "ridge" you get along the line where the maple fretboard meets the (painted) mahogany part of the neck?
yes, that is exactly what i mean
Nearly all the Gibsons I've ever owned (even Custom Shop ones) suffer from that phenomenon.
It's where they scr@pe the coloured paint off the binding (or edge of the fretboard) before applying clear coats over the top. I've never understood why you find it on Gibsons but rarely on other brands....
Haven't you got that issue on your other Gibson Vs?
Yes, but its only very slight in those case where it could be felt at all. On the melody maker with the burnt maple board it was rather large, Guitar Buyer reported a similar thing with a Melody Maker SG.
Is it the burnt maple, or the cheap finishing on that model. I suspect the later
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Yeah, they're probably a bit heavy-handed with scr@ping back the finish, and then I guess there are few (if any) clear top-coats.
Shouldn't be anything to do with the maple - unless it's prone to shrinking, which would be worrying. :?
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Shouldn't be anything to do with the maple - unless it's prone to shrinking, which would be worrying. :?
it will be a lot less prone to shrinking than ebony can be. i think you are correct in your assumption about the thinness/lack of clear coats after scr@ping the edge.
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Oh, is ebony prone to shrinking? I've been GASing for an ebony board guitar.... :?
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dont worry about it phil, but on older guitars ebony shrinkage can start to show problems... generally not a major problem till +50 years but you sometimes see a bit more fret bloom on some ebony
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Cheers Wez, sounds like if I buy something now I'll be wizened long before it is! :lol:
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They're doing them on a range of LP Customs too for £1399 and they look great (well, the one I saw today was anyway). People are always complaining about the price of Gibsons and these guitars are priced pretty reasonably.
I'm sure they're good (I've been in a Gibson-positive mood recently), but I can't quite get over the sight of a Custom with a lighter-coloured fretboard - it has to be ebony, or at least something which looks like it!
I tried a Flying V Melody maker with the burnt maple board and decided I liked the material. However:
* Agree it has to be black in colour for an LP custom
* The melody maker had an annoying lip between the edge of the neck and the start of the fingerboard - why?!
The particular LP Custom in Guitar Guitar has a really dark fretboard, didn't look out of place at all.
However, there is lots of variation and most are fairly light coloured.
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Is it the same stuff as on a Parker fingerboard? Because that stuff plays great (indeed, very similar to good ebony).
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Is it the same stuff as on a Parker fingerboard? Because that stuff plays great (indeed, very similar to good ebony).
The Midtown Custom has the synthetic "Richlite" board, which I guess is similar to Parker or Steinberger (in principle, at least - might be a totally different material!)
A lot of the other new Gibsons like the Melody Makers, Classic Customs etc have "Baked Maple" fretboards, which are just....maple. :)
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Is it the same stuff as on a Parker fingerboard? Because that stuff plays great (indeed, very similar to good ebony).
The Midtown Custom has the synthetic "Richlite" board, which I guess is similar to Parker or Steinberger (in principle, at least - might be a totally different material!)
A lot of the other new Gibsons like the Melody Makers, Classic Customs etc have "Baked Maple" fretboards, which are just....maple. :)
Actually Gibson has a lot of new fretboard materials: Baked Maple, Richlite, Obeche, Granadillo, Katalox, and maybe even more.
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Actually Gibson has a lot of new fretboard materials: Baked Maple, Richlite, Obeche, Granadillo, Katalox, and maybe even more.
funny how people will say 'baked maple', but nobody is saying 'baked obeche'.
I am not exactly sure if gibson are baking the obeche or using some other process like acrylization, but it certainly isnt raw unadulterated obeche!
What models are they using Granadillo and Katalox on. Personally i dont like granadillo much. its ok, and works - but nothing special. the brick red colour and boring grain do not inspire me, although i do still have a few fretboard blanks in the workshop
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Yeah, I was ignoring the "Obeche" because it clearly isn't Obeche as we know it!
Hadn't seen the Granadillo or Katalox.
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Granadillo on the Les Paul Studios:
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Les-Paul-Studio/Specs.aspx
Katalox on the Les Paul Deluxe:
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Les-Paul-Studio/Specs.aspx
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looks like they got the pot of dye out again
this is typical of granadillo
(http://xaverguitars.ca/your-custom-guitar/granadillo.jpg)
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I guess they are trying to make everything look like rosewood and ebony so people don't cry so much about the materials, well, not being rosewood and ebony.
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which is fine if they state that it is dyed. Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo' it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.
They feel the need to tell us maple is baked because we all know what maple looks like normally. I think they are taking the piss selling woods like granadillo and obeche as pure black fretboard woods without elaborating on what they have done to get them to be such dark fretboards
I am very much in favour of the use of alternative materials, i am not even bothered if they are dyeing them. I just think people should know what they are getting, and any potential care issues that may arise from it
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I guess they are trying to make everything look like rosewood and ebony so people don't cry so much about the materials, well, not being rosewood and ebony.
which is fine if they state that it is dyed. Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo' it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.
Which is like those '80s Japanese LP copies with cheap rosewood boards dyed to look like ebony.... :?
I understand Gibson's reasons for experimenting with different woods/materials, but dyeing the wood seems like a cheap tactic - and is enough to put me off.
I must admit I'm looking at new Gibsons now and thinking "That looks nice.... oh, baked maple/obeche/whatever fretboard. Forget it. :( " I know it's snobbery, but I can't help it.
Until you mentioned it, I had no idea they were using Katalox or Granadillo. Maybe they should draw attention to it, make a feature of it like they did with the SmartWoods years ago (I had one with a Curupay top and fretboard). At the moment it feels like they're "hiding" it.
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i am not really against a bit of dye. it can perfect for making ebony nice and black and does work well on other woods too. fiebings leather dye is great stuff for that purpose and has been used for years by many of the factories offering ebony fretboards
i have a guitar with a purpleheart fretboard that i dyed black from the start. the purpleheart wasn't very purple, more of a brown grey but nice and solid with a good tap tone. so black dyed purpleheart it became rather than waste it
a couple of years later there is a bit of wear through on the edges, but its fine because i can re dye whenever it needs it. its fine because i know its purpleheart dyed black, and i have the proper black dye ready to go
so yeah, i have no problem with hiding or enhancing the wood as they see fit. but on a high wear area like a fretboard we need to know a bit about what they have done
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I guess they are trying to make everything look like rosewood and ebony so people don't cry so much about the materials, well, not being rosewood and ebony.
which is fine if they state that it is dyed. Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo' it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.
Which is like those '80s Japanese LP copies with cheap rosewood boards dyed to look like ebony.... :?
I understand Gibson's reasons for experimenting with different woods/materials, but dyeing the wood seems like a cheap tactic - and is enough to put me off.
I must admit I'm looking at new Gibsons now and thinking "That looks nice.... oh, baked maple/obeche/whatever fretboard. Forget it. :( " I know it's snobbery, but I can't help it.
Until you mentioned it, I had no idea they were using Katalox or Granadillo. Maybe they should draw attention to it, make a feature of it like they did with the SmartWoods years ago (I had one with a Curupay top and fretboard). At the moment it feels like they're "hiding" it.
A big article about what those woods actually are, why they are using them, how they are actually processed to look like they look (since apparently they don't look black or brown naturally), do some comparison pictures and tone comparisons, or at least describe what's the difference.
The Andertons Music website has a good article about Baked Maple, they have some good close up pictures of the fretboards and a good comparison of how it's different from Rosewood and "normal", non-baked maple.
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Have you got a link to that? I'm having trouble finding it.
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http://www.andertons.co.uk/News/aid1158/gibson-baked-maple-fingerboard-guide.asp
Here it is.
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Very interesting, thanks! :)
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CHeers for the youtube link. Just watched it - interesting. I wasn't expecting to hear that much of a difference in tone!
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Loads of guitar makers have used different materials to great effect; Dan Armstrong, Danelectro, James Trussart, Parker Fly, Martin, Rainsong etc.
I don't see any problem with Gibson using alternative materials, they probably have to anyway after their recent troubles with importing wood certain woods. We should at least give them a try before deciding and not get too hung up on the particular shade of wood.
Surely if these materials sound good then they are good?
I suppose there was a similar resistance to stopping using ivory at some point in time.....
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Good point Tom - I think because it is Gibson and because dear Henry is almost universally ridiculed there is a natural inclination to slate any new stuff that Gibson come out with. From the Andertons video it looked as though they did genuinely think that the baked maple was easier to play than the rosewood. I"m still waiting to find a LP that I get on with - maybe this is a step in the right direction for me and my fondness for maple boards.
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Gibson finally released a statement about the new woods!!!
http://www2.gibson.com/Support/FAQ-Tonewoods.aspx
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Will Indian rosewood ever be used by Gibson again?
Yes, and it is actually being used now. At this time, Gibson is not using traditional Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks. The Gibson R&D team engineered a new process that is sonically virtually indistinguishable by layering two thinner pieces of Indian rosewood together with the grain of one in reverse direction of the other.
How good is a guitar with a layered fingerboard?
Very. Consider that guitar Gibson necks have always been layered - a fingerboard onto a neck. The body of a Les Paul guitar, for example, has always been layered; maple on top of mahogany.
reads a bit odd. basically justifying laminated construction... and its an odd place to have laminated construction.
i want to know more about the grain direction in these two laminates. do they both run headstock/body? or are they 90 degrees. if both headstock to body are they cut from the same piece with one flipped round? if so, why? If 90 degress, will the fretboard not be less stiff than before? will it tear out easier when refretted?
sounds odd either way.
Why is the Gibson Obeche black when, in its natural state, the wood is light in color, similar to maple?
Gibson uses Obeche that is specifically engineered in Europe to be used as fingerboard material. This material can be dyed many different colors as it is processed; we chose black for some current models. (We may use other colors in the future.) The surface of the wood is not stained; the color goes through the entire piece of wood. It will not rub off or lose its color.
sounds like i called this one. i would bet its an acrylic polymer that is basically pressure cooked till all the way through the wood
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Why is the Gibson Obeche black when, in its natural state, the wood is light in color, similar to maple?
Gibson uses Obeche that is specifically engineered in Europe to be used as fingerboard material. This material can be dyed many different colors as it is processed; we chose black for some current models. (We may use other colors in the future.) The surface of the wood is not stained; the color goes through the entire piece of wood. It will not rub off or lose its color.
sounds like i called this one. i would bet its an acrylic polymer that is basically pressure cooked till all the way through the wood
I think you're right, because it's obviously been made much harder than "raw" obeche, as well as changing the colour.
That being the case, why use obeche (or timber) at all? Might as well go fully synthetic.
("specifically engineered in Europe" conjures up some strange images of smoke-belching East European factories...)
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well i have used acylised maple a few times before, and i suspect this is a very similar process. the main reason is it lets you use wood that would usually be unsuitable for fretboards - like the obeche
it still sounds very woody, and still works like wood - although quite hard and a bit smelly
i am on board with this idea, especially if they start applying it to other woods - just a shame it seems to be what they are using on cheaper models so will never be considered as good as the other alternatives