Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Dusty on January 03, 2012, 03:30:58 AM
-
First off, a brilliant 2012 to everyone!
I checked quite a couple of SG-related threads but none seemed to anwer my questions, so I hope you can help me.
My main guitar is an SG standard which I have played almost exclusively day in, day out for ten years.
It sounds unbelievably loud and sweet even unplugged,
I'm about to give this sweetie a set of BKP (and transplant the original Gibsons to an SG special), but I'm having a hard time choosing which.
My band's style can be located somewhere between Mountain, Black Sabbath and Down.
Our main tuning is just standard flat, but for some songs I drop the E-string, which gives Drop-D flat.
So while the pickups should not sound overly modern, they must be able to handle that, which not all pickups are capable of.
We use a lot of dynamics, so I'd like to use the Bridge PU for heavy riffing and aggressive solos and the neck PU for clean parts and bluesy solos.
I read here that some pickups that sound great on LPs may sound 'muddy' on SGs.
On the other hand, I am not searching for overly aggressive pickups, so from what I am reading here the Riff Raffs might not be ideal for me, and also a Mule in the Bridge position might not be right choice. I would love to get a Mississippi Queen for the neck, but I really don't want any feedback problems while playing live.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOTTOM LINE:
I am considering to get one of these combinations:
BRIDGE NECK
BD SM
BD Mule
Abraxas Mule
Actually, that extreme Abraxas/Mule combo seems very interesting. I don't generally use the middle position,
so why not?
Please enlighten me :harp:
-
The BD works great in my SG, but my guitar is a bit brighter than typical SGs, which is why usually the recommendation is for the Riffraff instead.
Although I haven't played the pickup, I would have thought the first choice would have been an Alnico Warpig in the bridge, given that it is THE Black Sabbath pickup - and surely it would fit Down as well. Add a Mississipi Queen in the neck, and you've covered the three bands you've named!
-
First off, a brilliant 2012 to everyone!
I checked quite a couple of SG-related threads but none seemed to anwer my questions, so I hope you can help me.
My main guitar is an SG standard which I have played almost exclusively day in, day out for ten years.
It sounds unbelievably loud and sweet even unplugged,
I'm about to give this sweetie a set of BKP (and transplant the original Gibsons to an SG special), but I'm having a hard time choosing which.
My band's style can be located somewhere between Mountain, Black Sabbath and Down.
Our main tuning is just standard flat, but for some songs I drop the E-string, which gives Drop-D flat.
So while the pickups should not sound overly modern, they must be able to handle that, which not all pickups are capable of.
We use a lot of dynamics, so I'd like to use the Bridge PU for heavy riffing and aggressive solos and the neck PU for clean parts and bluesy solos.
I read here that some pickups that sound great on LPs may sound 'muddy' on SGs.
On the other hand, I am not searching for overly aggressive pickups, so from what I am reading here the Riff Raffs might not be ideal for me, and also a Mule in the Bridge position might not be right choice. I would love to get a Mississippi Queen for the neck, but I really don't want any feedback problems while playing live.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOTTOM LINE:
I am considering to get one of these combinations:
BRIDGE NECK
BD SM
BD Mule
Abraxas Mule
Actually, that extreme Abraxas/Mule combo seems very interesting. I don't generally use the middle position,
so why not?
Please enlighten me :harp:
Riff Raff set: lots of versatility, vintage voiced but with a modern edge.
-
Thanks guys. I do feel even more confused now though 8)
I'm not sure if going for a pickup with such massive output and massive bass as the Warpig can work for me.
We are two guitarists in the band, and always managed to stay out of each other's frequencies.
The other guy plays mostly Les Pauls with different moderate output custom pickups.
My SG also seems to be quite bright sounding. For example, I absolutely prefer covered pickups on it, since uncovered ones tend to sound shrill in my ears...
I have no experience playing P-90 style pickups myself, let alone in a humbucker casing, so how bad can it get, feedback-wise?
Arhg, all the choices!
-
My band's style can be located somewhere between Mountain, Black Sabbath and Down.
Not sure I can offer any useful advice, but I like your taste in music. :D
Regarding the MQ, I don't think you need to worry about feedback, but it's a single-coil pickup so hum may be an issue if that bothers you. However, the metal cover apparently makes them a bit less noisy than normal P-90s.
Does your SG currently have the standard 498T/490R set? What do you like (and not like) about those pickups, for comparison?
-
I'd say the warpig is still quite versatile for such a high dc pickup
cleans up much better than the gibson 498t pickup, specially through gain
the riff raff is definitely more versatile, a lot cleaner and brighter, but may not be the ideal for the sounds you're aiming for
if you have a JCM 800 2203 or something, you should definitely consider the alnico warpig
it is not an overly aggressive pickup at all
it's just fat and growly, but not harsh or oversaturared
the black dog is an amazing pickup as well, somewhat similar to the riff raff, but middier, much darker and not as open sounding on the mids
feels quite low output, though
the miracle man does an amazing job for 80's Sabbath, Down and some newer stuff, like Mastodon
but if you want a true classic early 70's tone, you shouldn't go over 10k (42 AWG)
also, Tim only recommends low or high output pickups for SG's
ceramics tend to sound good as well
tried the holy diver in a gibson sg, and it sucked, although it sounded amazing in every les paul I installed it
-
^
Based on my experience with the Miracle Man (which I love!) it is exactly not what the OP wants.
If the SG is brighter I'd say go with the Black Dog - it works for me! Be sure to get some new 500Kohm pots as well, in case it starts to get muddy.
I still think though that the warpig might be a good choice, given that it cleans up nicely.
-
My band's style can be located somewhere between Mountain, Black Sabbath and Down.
Not sure I can offer any useful advice, but I like your taste in music. :D
Regarding the MQ, I don't think you need to worry about feedback, but it's a single-coil pickup so hum may be an issue if that bothers you. However, the metal cover apparently makes them a bit less noisy than normal P-90s.
Does your SG currently have the standard 498T/490R set? What do you like (and not like) about those pickups, for comparison?
Yeah, I still have the standard PU's installed.
The pickups are not bad, and I'll continue to use them in another guitar.
What I miss in the bridge position is a little compression and "authority" for powerchords.
Generally, it's just a little icing on the 70's sound cake I want.
Pickups that match the extraordinary quality of the pure wood sound the axe delivers.
-
I use a hotrodded Fender Hotrod, a Laney GH 100(Iommi) and an Engl E-650 (Blackmore).
That and different treble boosters.
Eric:
So Tim does not recommend any pickups in the medium output range?
70's sound aside, would the Abraxis (14k) already qualify as a high output PU?
Judging from the BKP sound samples, I'm still quite interested in the Abraxas.
I do realize they are probably mounted on an LP and that doesn't say a whole lot about SG-compatibility,
but the compression and well-rounded rhythm sound are really nice.
Has anyone played that one?
-
Abraxas would count as fairly hot, output-wise (or vintage hot, tone-wise).
It's not a pickup many people on the forum seem to own - and those that do have them in LPs, I think.
Definitely not a model Tim would normally recommend for an SG. He previously has suggested Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays, Mules..... or at the other end of the scale, Miracle Men, Warpigs.
On the other hand, the Gibson 498T is Alnico V, around 14-15k (if I remember right).... and just about any comparable BKP (Abraxas, Emerald, Rebel Yell?) is going to give you more clarity and definition than the Gibson pickup, so maybe a medium-output BKP would work for you. There are no rules, after all. :wink:
Maybe this is one to discuss directly with Tim, if you can.
-
Thanks for your help everyone.
It's strange how much time and money I've put into buying and modifying FX pedals and amps, but never exploring the realm of the pickup more.
I'll contact Tim now and decide on a pair.
Once I have them installed, I'll post the result here.
-
So can anyone explain why medium output pickups wouldn't work in a SG?
SGs are usually a bit brighter than LPs. What's the problem?
-
I think it's because SGs are all mahogany, which tends to emphasise bass frequencies, whereas in an LP - despite the extra mass - you have a balanced tone due to the combination of the maple top and mahogany back.
Here's a very old quote from Tim Mills:
I always recommend trying to keep the output low on SG's as medium output pickups mud out with all that mahogany, hence my Riff Raff suggestion.A high gainer like a Warpig sounds good and so does a Miracle Man as both have more than enough power to really drive through timber.Funnily enough I fitted a Stormy Monday to a friends SG and that sounded really nice too......quite a surprise but it chunked up really well into an overdriven Marshall.
The ones to avoid are the medium output humbuckers as they simply seem to add to the bottom end of the mahogany.So I wouldn't bother with VHII,Emerald, Crawler or even a Nailbomb as that's got a big bass response too even though it's quite high gain.
I wouldn't totally dismiss it but my experience of SG's is the bottom end blooms up quite a bit with certain pickups and the Nailbomb has a lot of bottom and mid range both inherent in an SG.Some SGs will take a Nailbomb perfectly well if they're very bright but on the whole I've found that sub DC8.5K humbuckers sound fantastic,Alnico V powered humbuckers in particular the closer you get to DC8.5K so in this instance if a customer wanted a Mule I'd go with AV over AIV.A Stormy Monday, because the wind is lower and the tone more open, sounds great with AIV.
At the other end of the scale, the high gainers like Miracle Man which is ceramic powered work well as the magnet controls the bass response or Warpig are excellent.Both of these are wound with a very fine gauge wire which keeps the coil size small.........the smaller coil footprint under the strings keeps the tone more focused.
Well there you go.........all I can add is that if you buy one and it's not right, I will of course swap it.
-
So can anyone explain why medium output pickups wouldn't work in a SG?
SGs are usually a bit brighter than LPs. What's the problem?
I had a few gibson SG's, epiphone G400's and a 70's brazilian giannini sg
none of them were brighter than any maple top les paul I had or played
they were just thinner and sharper sounding, more center mid based, but definitely not brighter
-
I ordered Black Dog for de bridge & Mule for the neck. From BKP's says to me they are a good versatile combo wich i'll have a complete paddle of sounds.
-
Here's a very old quote from Tim Mills:
The ones to avoid are the medium output humbuckers as they simply seem to add to the bottom end of the mahogany.So I wouldn't bother with VHII,Emerald, Crawler or even a Nailbomb as that's got a big bass response too even though it's quite high gain.
I wouldn't totally dismiss it but my experience of SG's is the bottom end blooms up quite a bit with certain pickups and the Nailbomb has a lot of bottom and mid range both inherent in an SG.Some SGs will take a Nailbomb perfectly well if they're very bright
My SG is rather on the dark side (not overly dark, but definitly not bright sounding), and the ABomb bridge works wonder in it - the low end is chunky yet _very_ tight and totally controlled, not boomy nor muddy at all.
-
Here is what Tim answered (very promptly, I might add):
my favourite for a SG is the Raff Raff humbucker especially for that original Iommi tone however there's no reason why you couldn't use an Abraxas set. Their output range is well suited to an SG and the AIV magnets ensure a good balance in the high end.
I have no permission to quote from the mail, but I am sure he won't mind that I share this basic info with fellow BKP-enthusiasts.
I guess the Riff-Raff IS the ideal pickup for SGs, but as mine is not lacking in the highs and I like to have a little compression for rhythm playing and sustain for soloing, the abraxas seems ideal.
It's not listed for Heavy Metal on the BKP site, but I guess that means it's not ideal for metal core or death metal.
I have a strong feeling that for our bluesy kind of heavy, this pickup will work wonders in my SG.
-
It's very interesting that Tim said "there's no reason why you couldn't use an Abraxas set". Perhaps he's revised his thoughts about medium output pickups in SGs! Of course I defer to Mr Mills and retract my earlier comment! :lol:
In that quote I posted above, Tim didn't specifically mention the Abraxas, but if the Abraxas is OK then I would guess other not-too-bassy sets like Rebel Yell, VHII and Emerald might now be considered OK too.... unless there's something very specific about the voicing of the Abraxas which suits an SG.
As has often been observed on this forum, BKPs tend to have more clarity than some other manufacturers' pickups. There won't be too many cases where they'll sound too dark or muddy for a particular guitar. I'd still shy away from fitting Crawlers or (probably) HDs in an SG though.
-
I have to decided to choose a set of Abraxas BUT at the same time I'llreplace the bridge with a brass one, the stop tailpiece with an aluminium one, and the volume potis with 500ks. Also, I ordered a chrome covered Abraxas.
I guess that all of these measures supply vividness and highs, so the Abraxas won't sound too Santana-ish...
does that make any sense? :D
-
Good thinking, I like aluminium tailpieces and the 500k pots will brighten things up.
What brass bridge will you be fitting?
-
Cool, let us know how it works out!
-
AAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
The deed is done :D
-bridge: Normal ABR-1, but with brass bridge saddles
-aluminum tailpiece
-set of Abraxas
-high quality exact 500kohm vol AND tone pots (Gibson had installed 200kohm tone pots!)
-new transistors
-my own copper foil shielding
What made me happy was that the guys at the shop all found it was an extraordinary guitar with impressive dry sound.
And they should really know. One has a '59 Paula, and what is hanging on their walls is pretty damn sweet :japon:
The result: The axe is now a lot louder even unamplified, and it has completely opened up.
The plan to make all other components emphasize the highs in order to prevent muddiness worked out.
The sound is just sweet. The lows are less muddy, and everything is more open and defined.
So far, I was only able to play through my Fender at low volumes, but next weekend we'll hit the rehearsel room and I can see what this baby really is capable of. It's already clear though that I have a completely different guitar now. I love it.
Maybe I'll make a vid when I have the time.
Thanks for the help everybody.
-
Pictures please! :D
-
OK, pimped electronics:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/pumpkinpie666/elec1.jpg)
Everything else:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/pumpkinpie666/guit.jpg)
As you can see, my poor baby is played down to the wood in some places, also I once broke out a big chunk of wood when i stepped on the cable while playing (which was glued in again), but scars just add character, don't they?
Besides, she fits me well, my shins look like Tony Hawks' and my knee has just recently been 'glued together' again :lol:
-
Looks good!
-
Oh my God.
We finally rehearsed and I could play my baby through the Engl E650.
And it is the sound. It is there. Using the neck pickup, it is so easy to dial in an incredible Blues/Southern Rock sound, and the bridge PU gives me a hard rocking classic Iommi tone.
Everything has changed. The tone pots don't make everything sound mushy and dark anymore when turned down, but rather seem to emphasize other frequencies (subjectively). almost every combination makes sense.
The sound is sweet, tight, quick and aggressive.
For those of you who only think of modern metalcore amps when they hear Engl, I gotta say that the Blackmore model is special. Most Engl amps are too modern and heavy sounding for my taste, but this one has classic tone and is just an amazing amp.
My initial fears that a full mahogany might sound bassy and mushy with Abraxas turned out ot be unsubstantiated.
All the frequencies are there, and it just rocks. The Abraxas, along with the other modifications, turned a guitar with a very good wood sound into a true tone beast.
Seriously, if somebody came up to me right now and offered me a mint 59' Paula in exchange for my worn, mistreated SG, or as much cash as you get for Paulas these days, I would not do it, hands down.
I spent a decade making this my guitar, and it has just the tone I want now. Tone heaven.
As far as I'm concerned, players of (not too dark sounding) SGs can add the Abraxas to the list of perfect pickups.
-
Enjoyed your review very much !! Cheers !!
-
Oh my God.
We finally rehearsed and I could play my baby through the Engl E650.
And it is the sound. It is there.
(...)
I spent a decade making this my guitar, and it has just the tone I want now. Tone heaven.
Glad to know you found your holy grail - and welcome to the Happy BKP Users club 8)
As far as I'm concerned, players of (not too dark sounding) SGs can add the Abraxas to the list of perfect pickups.
First mention of this combo on the board AFAICT, so samples would be welcome if you can manage this.
-
As far as I'm concerned, players of (not too dark sounding) SGs can add the Abraxas to the list of perfect pickups.
Glad to see that I'm not the only one "violating" that SG rule of avoiding mid-output pickups! :D
I'm really considering getting a new bridge and tailpiece for my SG Standard now.
May I ask where you bought yours? I have trouble finding a suitable replacement.
-
I'm really considering getting a new bridge and tailpiece for my SG Standard now.
May I ask where you bought yours? I have trouble finding a suitable replacement.
I've been looking around shops for a long time before this, too, and never found anything.
The guys at Tonehunter (the German distributor of BKP)did it all. They have an incredible little shop that is os full of vintage gear it makes your eyes water, and almost any replacement part you may need.
So small, fanatic guitar repair shops are an option, but I am sure there must be sites on the internet where you can get all kinds of parts.
-
First mention of this combo on the board AFAICT, so samples would be welcome if you can manage this.
Definitely. as soon as I find some spare time, I'll make sure to upload a video and post the link here.
-
That Abraxas set definitely rocks.
Cheers Stephan