Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: alexedwards on January 06, 2012, 05:37:15 AM
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So, the luthier calls me today telling me he's gotten in my calibrated set of aftermaths into my Ibanez RGD321. I ran down to the shop and picked her up, plugged her in, in to my dismay this is what I heard.
http://soundcloud.com/edwardsalexk/bkp-aftermath-problem
I can post a clean DI later if nessescary, but this is a distorted tone. I'm in tune, but the way these sound it sounds like i'm out of tune because these nasty frequencies..
Also, this is not the way i have dialed in the tone..it sounds like this across all rigs.
The tone sounds very nasaly, hollow, and honky. I know these aren't supposed to sound this way. I gave the luthier a call and told him my issue, he said he had no idea how to fix it and that it sounded that way because "they are just very hot pick ups"
Can anyone help me out here? thank you in advance.
-Alex
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can you take a photo of the wiring cavity.
To me it sounds like it could have been wired up wrong,
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Hey there-
I'd be more than happy to.
Is the wiring cavity just the hole on the back of the body that's covered up by a plate? Sorry, i'm a bit of a newbie with this stuff.
Thanks
-Alex
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yeah you may have a few depending on your guitar but it will be the biggest one that is directly behind the pots.
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To me it sounds like it could have been wired up wrong,
I agree, like wires were swapped due to the different color code or so.
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The amounf of luthiers who have wired my bkp's wrong is truly frightening, its because they do what they always do instead of following the bkp instructions.
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By the way, you are not in wales are you?..
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Sounds like it has been wired up with the two coils wired out of phase to each other - like the others said - he's followed Dimarzio colour coding or copied from the pickups that were in there
It's actually really simple to fix - I do have my doubts about him if he is clueless to the problem though, unless he is pretty much an acoustic guitar maker type "luthier" and hasn't much electric experience.
If he has copied Dimarzio he will have red wires to hot and green to earth and the black and white soldered together
To make it work for BKP - swap the black wire and green wire over - so the black goes to earth and the green is soldered to the white and taped up to insulate the join
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Get him to check the wiring against the colour codes on the BKP wiring diagram that comes with the pickup - sounds out of phase.
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Hey guys, thanks for all of your responses, I appreciate it.
Just some more background info
This is a 3-way switch config. Also it's an ibanez, and I could be wrong but i've heard about people having to reverse their neck magnets to get it in phase? Maybe just a myth, but i'm not too sure.
He claimed to look at all of the schematics and that none of them worked. He said he had to use a completely different wiring to get them to work. So yeah, he probably did wire them wrong because according to him the schematics provided online and in the manual did not work.
I'm truly doubting these pups are defective as well, as i haven't seen anyone who's had the same problem.
Anyways, here's a picture of the wiring. Hope it's not too jumbled, I can re take it if needed.
By the way, you are not in wales are you?..
No, i'm not in Wales
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He's used the wrong wiring. He's taped the green and black together, and then used the red from one and the white from the other as live and vice versa as grounds. He should have the green and while soldered together and the black and screen to ground and the red's to the switch. Using the red and white differently for each pickup will put the pickups out of phase and give a really thin sound (unless the magnets are also reversed like in a PRS).
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He's used the wrong wiring. He's taped the green and black together, and then used the red from one and the white from the other as live and vice versa as grounds. He should have the green and while soldered together and the black and screen to ground and the red's to the switch. Using the red and white differently for each pickup will put the pickups out of phase and give a really thin sound (unless the magnets are also reversed like in a PRS).
Agreed, swapping the red and white wires will have put the two pickups out of phase.
I noticed the greens and blacks wired together too, but don't know what effect that will have on the sound.... is it changing the phase of the two coils within each humbucker relative to each other? :?
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Does seem odd that supposedly professional guitar technicians can make mistakes like that - worse, that they hand the guitar back to the customer like it!!!
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Does seem odd that supposedly professional guitar technicians can make mistakes like that - worse, that they hand the guitar back to the customer like it!!!
A "professional" is only someone that get paid - doesn't imply being competent. FWIW, my experience with a couple "tech" jobs (sound engineering, computer programming and guitar tech) is that a good part of the "supposedly professional" just suck - don't understand what they do, never bother reading the $%&#ing manual, try anything until it "kind of" work and call it "done". Strange enough, the good ones are usually also very humble - but that's probably why they are good - when something doesn't work out, they first question their own understanding of the problem, re-read the manual and double-check what they've done.
FWIW, at least one third of the sound engineers and more than half of the computer programmers I met would be better doing something else. Can't tell about "guitar tech", but I suspect the ratio is even worth.
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Hey everyone
Thanks for all of your help. In a couple days a buddy and I are gonna sit down and switch those wires around. hopefully that will fix the issue. I'll keep you posted with results
Any fatal errors to watch out for when wiring pickups? What NOT to do, AKA things that can permanently ruin the pups? again sorry if i sound newb here, as I am not so experienced with guitar electronics. Just trying to be sure i'm taking all possible precautions.
Thanks again
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Don't pull any wires with so much force that they rip out of the pickup. Apart from that just apply general carefulness.
Cheers Stephan
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I think we totally understand, after all we have all been there (people like me more recently, others...well few decades I suppose) and precaution is a very good thing.
As far as dangers go Iīd say as long as you donīt pull any stunts and damage the PUs directly or damage the wires somehow I think you are save. I am not aware of any way you can damage the PUs by just repositioning the ends of the wires.
However you should watch that you donīt drip solder into the switch and do not heat the pots for extensive periods of time (for multiple minutes I think). If the solder wonīt melt, donīt just continue heating the pot, add some fresh solder so get a better heat transfer.
Thatīs all from the top of my head.
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Yeah, there's really no way you can damage the pickup, short of placing it in a "great magnetic field" (Iron Man style).
But there are risks of damaging the pots, switch... and the paintwork around the control cavity. Take your time and don't overheat things!
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I know the 'tech' who installed the pickups did it wrong, but I'd say to take it back to him with instructions on how to put it right - you PAID him to do this after all. Installing a pickup is NOT rocket science.
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I know the 'tech' who installed the pickups did it wrong, but I'd say to take it back to him with instructions on how to put it right - you PAID him to do this after all. Installing a pickup is NOT rocket science.
HTH has a good point there. Might be good to take it in this time, also so that the "tech" might learn something for the future.
But in the long run Iīd say learn how to do it yourself too, so you donīt have to deal with such a "tech" again. Itīs always a valuable skill to have if you really are into guitars.
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I know the 'tech' who installed the pickups did it wrong, but I'd say to take it back to him with instructions on how to put it right - you PAID him to do this after all. Installing a pickup is NOT rocket science.
HTH has a good point there. Might be good to take it in this time, also so that the "tech" might learn something for the future.
You're right, but sometimes it's just not worth the hassle and putting up with the strop the guy will inevitably throw when told he's done it wrong.
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You're right, but sometimes it's just not worth the hassle and putting up with the strop the guy will inevitably throw when told he's done it wrong.
I've had to ask a well-known Manchester guitar tech to repair one of his own wiring foul-ups, he slammed the phone down on me. That was the time I bought a soldering iron and learnt to fix guitars myself.
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I know the 'tech' who installed the pickups did it wrong, but I'd say to take it back to him with instructions on how to put it right - you PAID him to do this after all. Installing a pickup is NOT rocket science.
That was my first thought, but honestly at this point I don't really want the guy touching my guitar again. If I can do this myself I think i'll go back and demand some kind of compensation
One more question for all of you, is there anything that he could've done to damage the pickups from what you can tell in the clip? If i'm not mistaken, these are simply out of phase, and if they can work out of phase they can also work in phase, is this correct?
Thanks again.
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yeah once wired up correctly they should be fine.
And i doubt you will be able to get any compensation if you make any changes.
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If you show him photos of the guitar as it is then rewire it properly and ask for your money back then I don't think a reputable tech would be justified in refusing a refund.
Maybe print out this thread and show him the BKP wiring colour chart to show that he's made a mistake?
You can pursue these things through small claims court or trading standards if you're sure you have a case for a refund.
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You're right, but sometimes it's just not worth the hassle and putting up with the strop the guy will inevitably throw when told he's done it wrong.
I've had to ask a well-known Manchester guitar tech to repair one of his own wiring foul-ups, he slammed the phone down on me. That was the time I bought a soldering iron and learnt to fix guitars myself.
That's how I learnt guitar wiring - I bought a soldering iron and then tacked it systematically - where does the signal come from (the pickups) and where does it need to go (the output jack). In between are the pots and the pickup selector.
Cheers Stephan
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If you show him photos of the guitar as it is then rewire it properly and ask for your money back then I don't think a reputable tech would be justified in refusing a refund.
IMHO a tech cannot be called reputable if he chooses to ignore the installation instructions.
You can pursue these things through small claims court or trading standards if you're sure you have a case for a refund.
That is probably more hassle than benefit. You can make better use of your time by learning how to do the wiring yourself.
Cheers Stephan
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If you show him photos of the guitar as it is then rewire it properly and ask for your money back then I don't think a reputable tech would be justified in refusing a refund.
IMHO a tech cannot be called reputable if he chooses to ignore the installation instructions.
Well, anyone can make a mistake! If the tech agrees to set the work right at no extra charge then no harm done.
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I have to say, from the picture it doesn't look like a particularly great example of soldering/wiring anyway.
I'd rather sort it out myself than take it back to this chap. At least then if I messed up it'd be my mess.
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Are you saying your mess is better than someone else's mess? You mess snob.
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Are you saying your mess is better than someone else's mess? You mess snob.
Not better, I just feel more comfortable wallowing in my own mess than someone else's.
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It's similar to what I learned with amp building: "Remember - you will have to service it" (Kevin O'Connor, The Ultimate Tone Vol. 3).
Cheers Stephan
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It's similar to what I learned with amp building: "Remember - you will have to service it" (Kevin O'Connor, The Ultimate Tone Vol. 3).
I could just paraphrase it when it comes to computer programming: "Remember - you will have to debug and maintain it".
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http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm
I found the above link to be helpful
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http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm
I found the above link to be helpful
That is an excellent article. Thanks for posting the link.
Cheers Stephan
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In my experience nearly all the luthiers I know (with a couple of exceptions) come from woodworking background, and generally have a very poor understanding of electronics; hardly surprising as they have probably not had any formal training in this area and it is not a major part of the job.
Equally, I get some very strange looks from people when I tell them that I don't work on guitars.
Electronics and woodworking are very different disciplines.
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Electronics and woodworking are very different disciplines.
I agree but without the electronics, the electric guitar is only half an instrument, so you got to bring both together somehow. No need to have them in one person, though.
Cheers Stephan
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It's easy to learn how to wire a guitar and well worth learning how to do it. I've saved millions this way.
Actually let me revise that. I have saved enough to justify the outlay on a soldering iron
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Electronics and woodworking are very different disciplines.
I agree but without the electronics, the electric guitar is only half an instrument, so you got to bring both together somehow. No need to have them in one person, though.
Cheers Stephan
Absolutely.
Most of the time wiring up a guitar is straight forward; however you will at some stage, if you do enough, encounter a problem that will require trouble shooting and this is where some electronics knowledge is useful.