Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on January 20, 2012, 09:11:38 AM
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Some interesting videos here. Make of it what you will, but as the Monkees say "I'm A Believer"...
http://www.prsguitars.com/rulesoftone/
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Whatever you think of PRS you got to admire Paul's total enthusiasm and knowledge. Pity Henry Juszkiewicz is not so focused on his products :(
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The difference between a businessman and a guitar builder I guess!
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Or a decent bloke and a complete tw@t, more like...
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It's a shame you can't get the hardware to upgrade older guitars like my CE22. They only sell the hardware to US citizens :(
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It's a shame you can't get the hardware to upgrade older guitars like my CE22. They only sell the hardware to US citizens :(
You can get it on eBay sometimes. If you have, like, 8 billion quid to spare....
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i agree with almost everything he says. :)
in fact there were some things he was saying which i know i have said to people before in tonal discussions. the rubber analogy is one i have used loads of times
only thing i dont quite agree with is the idea of a guitar as purely subtracting potential string energy. I think there is a certain amount of body/neck vibration fed back into the string which is also an important part of tone.
but its a simplified analogy for the general PRS buying public, it does help to make his principals of energy transference between string and guitar clear and i guess that is what the rules are mostly about
the things paul seems to be focusing is anything that can act as a buffer between component parts. so things like glue joins and plating become all important
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Yep, he's worked on all that stuff for years. He's also obsessed with stuff 'ringing', be it a neck blank or a nut.
I've got to say, if my Sigs are anything to go by, he's completely on the money.
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Would I make myself unpopular if I dared to suggest that tone comes from your fingers, not from a guitar ... or even from your pickups?
Form an orderly queue to stone me to death.
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everything prs says is reasonable and generally accepted as true.a well made guitar,thoughtfully put together and using
quality components can't 'worsen' ones tone.
but the fingers.......listen to the tones hendrix gets out of bog standard strats.(and nice old amps)
then there's amps, pedals & venue/ambient & musical style.
even the sustain argument carries limited weight for me in that unless you play your guitar clean in a drawn out style it's pretty irrelevent (within reason).as long as the guitar isn't completely dead its fine.in fact old strings undo just about
all the effort to get good tone.
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To each his own :)
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Forgive me (this really is not a dig at Twinfan!) but it just seems like a "puff" piece to make PRS owners feel smug and happy with their purchase and doesn't really say much that isn't commonly accepted. :?
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True Dave, as I say "to each his own". It just shows to me how obsessed the boss is with making his product the best it can be.
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I'd feel just the same... I love it when things reaffirm the feeling that I've made the right choice.
At business school one of the few areas I wanted to spend more time on was "post purchase evaluation" and how it solidifies brand loyalty.
In my opinion, not enough companies do this kind of thing!
One day I'd love be in the position to watch Luca di Montezemolo talk about the ethos behind my new Ferrari!
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Forgive me (this really is not a dig at Twinfan!) but it just seems like a "puff" piece to make PRS owners feel smug and happy with their purchase and doesn't really say much that isn't commonly accepted. :?
i would agree, but it does seem like PRS have spent quite a while making these small tweaks to hardware and spec... some of which seem counter intuitive on the surface. i just dont think they would bother if he didnt think it would make some tonal difference.
Paul reed smith is one of the most genuine and friendly guitar builders i have ever met (briefly). I would actually go so far to say i trust him not to mislead us, i dont think you could get the guy to say something about guitars he did not truly believe
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Oh, please don't get me wrong... I'm 100% sure he means what he says and every tweek is a real improvement.
I just meant the video itself, not the content. PDT_002
Why else make the video?
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only thing i dont quite agree with is the idea of a guitar as purely subtracting potential string energy. I think there is a certain amount of body/neck vibration fed back into the string which is also an important part of tone.
This is it though, isnt it? The string is capable of developing huge amounts of overtones, being a thin, linear piece of metal. The guitar, being a big clumsy bit of wood is capable of developing far fewer overtones. The string-guitar combination is a resonance feedback loop; initial excursions of the string excite resonances in the guitar, the guitars resonance feeds back to the string, and thats where the guitars tone happens; the string is forced to carry only the overtones allowed by the guitar; just the modes that its capable of resonating with, since in the guitar-string loop all overtones in the guitar and the string must be in phase
The way I see it, very simplified, is a circle. You can have standing waves on a circle. Half the circle is the guitar from nut to bridge and half is the string, its a complete vibrational loop, and whats on the string half is only whats allowed on the guitar half. You cant have a situation there where theres a 10th mode on one half thats not on the other, and the guitar is the bottleneck.
Obviously the situation is a lot more complex than that, but its still generally true to say that the modes allowed on the string are the modes allowed by the guitar. I'd have thought that was relatively uncontroversial and struggle to see how the guitar can possibly add any sort of vibration that didnt start in the string, since its purely a resonator.
I've never been terribly impressed by the PRSes I've played, but in the general indications of the philosophy that hes getting at, hes completely right, the guitar is just subtractive, and the closest thing to objectively 'better' you can get is a guitar that transmits vibration most efficiently across the widest frequency range (to give you the most to work with down the line).
As far as tone being in the fingers....yeah, very much so, but I'll give you a stock strat, fender twin, 2x10, SM57 and a million years to get a close reproduction of the guitar sound off the black album ;) Do you need hetfield, or someone that can play a lot like him, as well? Yes. But even with the right player, you need a lot more besides.
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Oh, please don't get me wrong... I'm 100% sure he means what he says and every tweek is a real improvement.
I just meant the video itself, not the content. PDT_002
Why else make the video?
Its marketing for sure. But at least its more sober and seems more honest and grounded in rationality than most. Your average guitar marketing campaign involves vast amounts of hyperbole and buzz words and nearly no content; this is at least sensible, and Paul clearly believes what hes saying. Even if he is being vague, hes saying more than most do in marketing. Give me that over Henry bigging up the firebird X as a music-changing revolution any day :)
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Luddite! The Robot guitar and baked maple are the future...
Stop living in the past... PDT_028 PDT_030 PDT_037
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldog0xcXV81qfclr5o1_400.jpg)
"I need to make a living you know"
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:lol:
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You may not agree with PRS or not like PRS guitars but it's quite refreshing to see some one running a huge company like PRS and still have enormous love and enthusiasm in their product. Gibson/Henry whatshisface could learn a lot from Paul.
I just happen to love PRS :lol:
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Oh, please don't get me wrong... I'm 100% sure he means what he says and every tweek is a real improvement.
I just meant the video itself, not the content. PDT_002
Why else make the video?
I agree, it all comes across very awkward and slightly pompous - "We're here to talk about these 21 rules, but I'm not actually going to say what they are".... "a lot of people know about this now, so I can talk about it".
I couldn't quite understand why, if he formulated all these concepts ages ago, he didn't apply them from day one (or a least day two or three, once the company was established). :? Or maybe he has tried to apply them, but it's needed a lot of fine-tuning to make the reality fit the original idea.
But yes, his enthusiasm and dedication is impressive.
It does make you feel a bit like: "Hmmm, my PRS is a few years old..... it must be cr@p because it hasn't got all these tweaks...." :|
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I know what you mean Philly but that said I'm always impressed when someone never rests on their laurels and continually tries to improve their product. Still think, at the moment, that the McCarty is the nicest but then I would say that.
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I think the new tuners with aluminium buttons are interesting. Obviously weight reduction is the aim, but I wonder how the open-back design will hold up over time?
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I think the new tuners with aluminium buttons are interesting. Obviously weight reduction is the aim, but I wonder how the open-back design will hold up over time?
It's worked fine for acoustics and basses for many years ;)
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I couldn't quite understand why, if he formulated all these concepts ages ago, he didn't apply them from day one (or a least day two or three, once the company was established). Or maybe he has tried to apply them, but it's needed a lot of fine-tuning to make the reality fit the original idea.
i am assuming the 21 rules are not specific. possibly more like general ideas about how each part should influence the system and the last 30 years have been about refining those parts to match his ideal
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Would I make myself unpopular if I dared to suggest that tone comes from your fingers, not from a guitar ... or even from your pickups?
Form an orderly queue to stone me to death.
No stones from me Frank - look at my sig.
I have 2 PRS guitars (Studio and DGT) - love both of them but do not consider them to be the holy grail of guitar playing but just one of many factors which go to make up a good tone. There are times when I get what I consider is a good tone from my setup and the next day, with exactly the same settings, it can sound cr@p which is probably down to fingers/attitude. Some days I think if I can't get a decent sound with my gear I might as well put the lot on ebay and become a dustman. :(
I still however have a lot of respect for Paul and his guitars.
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I think the new tuners with aluminium buttons are interesting. Obviously weight reduction is the aim, but I wonder how the open-back design will hold up over time?
It's worked fine for acoustics and basses for many years ;)
True.... but my experience with those kind of tuners on acoustics and basses - admittedly limited, and not high-end stuff! - is that the tuners feel pretty stiff and creaky, you fight to get the guitar in tune, but once you're there it pretty much stays in tune.
I'm sure the PRS tuners are nothing like that, but with an open back they must be subject to dust and dirt getting in the works and fouling them up.
Electric guitars are used in very different environments, and generally subjected to a lot more stress and abuse than acoustics - a sealed, lubricated tuner just seems to make more practical sense (that said, I personally like vintage Kluson-types, or the Gotoh reproductions, best of all!)
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I couldn't quite understand why, if he formulated all these concepts ages ago, he didn't apply them from day one (or a least day two or three, once the company was established). Or maybe he has tried to apply them, but it's needed a lot of fine-tuning to make the reality fit the original idea.
i am assuming the 21 rules are not specific. possibly more like general ideas about how each part should influence the system and the last 30 years have been about refining those parts to match his ideal
Yeah, you're probably right, but then "21" seems a very specific number for a list of general ideas! You know, you could maybe say numbers 15 and 17 overlap a bit so perhaps you could combine them for a nice round number.... :P
Again, it's mildly irritating that he's prepared to talk about these "21 rules" but too precious to say what they are.
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Again, it's mildly irritating that he's prepared to talk about these "21 rules" but too precious to say what they are.
sounds to me that its more like a historical and possibly quite personal document stating what he wanted to achieve and how he thought it should be done.
it may be that some of them are blindingly obvious in an age where everyone is an expert. maybe he simply doesnt agree with the specifics of them all now, they still shaped the R&D and the company as we know it
possibly he just doesnt want the rest of the guitar building world cashing in on his ideas. first you would see the other manufacturers listing approximately 20ish reasons there guitars are so good, then you would see buyers using the 21 rules to decide if a guitars is decent or a pile of cr@p
we know good guitars existed long before PRS, so we dont need his rules dictating how people think a guitar should be made
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Phil, the new tuners work and feel great. No problems.
That style has worked on P-Basses for many years with no problems either :)
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Sounds like coca cola's secret recipe
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Pretty much most of the things he listed are things that I have always done myself or gravitated towards doing over the years.
My own work has always been inspired and informed by both major talents in the guitar making world as well as from other smaller scale builders that I have been lucky enough to be friends with-
Large builders such as fender, Gibson, Hamer, PRS, BC Rich, Ibanez, Aria, Tyler, Suhr, Anderson
Small builders & teachers such as Melvyn Hiscox, Dan Erlewine, Sid Poole, BlackMachine, Rob Williams, Martyn Booth etc etc
The list is extensive and like anyone else it's always about integrating best practises into my own work
From watching the video it is possible to establish most of the list even if some details are left out
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Talking about the cristallisation of the wood, reminds of something I've heard before......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVTj08qTwGw
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Talking about the cristallisation of the wood, reminds of something I've heard before......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVTj08qTwGw
Hooray! :lol:
That was due for a revisit.
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What are the 21 rules?
From Ultimate Guitar
Rule #1: Don't talk about the 21 rules.
Rules #2: Burn the 21 rules after your death.
Rules #3–#21 see rule #1
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:lol:
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What are the 21 rules?
From Ultimate Guitar
Rule #1: Don't talk about the 21 rules.
Rules #2: Burn the 21 rules after your death.
Rules #3–#21 see rule #1
sounds like Fight Club, mmm.....
btw, Paul has maybe been hanging round with 'Fiddy' too much, he's got a thing about 21 too... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMhlvbOFaM
in another few years he might make it to 29 and be all pally with Jay Z... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWo6hqqtTY4&feature=fvwrel
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Paul's always had loads of enthusiasm and it’s good that he is so pleased with his guitars but I do think a lot of it is marketing. I think a lot of Ed Romans comments about the things which are not right about the PRS's are valid. There are fundamental flaws of which are partly due to cutting costs. They should make these improvements like the fixed bridge being non-adjustable. it is just not on! They should work on sorting things like this first.
They keep making small adjustments to get people to buy the latest tweaked version. It is just to sell more guitars which are always restricted to limited quantities and therefore at 2x the price. I do however, think they make as good a guitar as any mass made high end company and I do love my PRS but they could be better.
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There are fundamental flaws of which are partly due to cutting costs. They should make these improvements like the fixed bridge being non-adjustable. it is just not on! They should work on sorting things like this first.
There's no way in the world the fixed bridge is a cost-cutting exercise! It's one piece, lightweight, with no moving parts, because that gives great tone! Just like a Les Paul Junior. And the intonation is just fine unless you want to use heavy strings.
Bollocks to Ed Roman.
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There's no way in the world the fixed bridge is a cost-cutting exercise! It's one piece, lightweight, with no moving parts, because that gives great tone! Just like a Les Paul Junior. And the intonation is just fine unless you want to use heavy strings.
Bollocks to Ed Roman.
+1
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^ what Phil said. The fixed bridge doesn't need to be adjustable because it intonates 9s to 11s perfectly.
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Another vote for the fixed bridge. I just picked one up on ebay to replace the PRS adjustable bridge on my singlecut!
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Yep - the fixed bridge worked for me when I had a PRS. Ed Roman was a tool who did nothing but shameless self promotion.
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Say what you REALLY think Ian!
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I'll have to stick to the intonatable one as fitting an earvana requires a slight tweak of the saddle positions - straightens them out a bit.
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Say what you REALLY think Ian!
:) Yeah, busy day today and feeling the stress a bit. Ranting over now!
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I'll have to stick to the intonatable one as fitting an earvana requires a slight tweak of the saddle positions - straightens them out a bit.
Yeah, I was wondering about that on the thread about replacement nuts. So Earvana might work well with an LP Junior bridge?
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I'll have to stick to the intonatable one as fitting an earvana requires a slight tweak of the saddle positions - straightens them out a bit.
Yeah, I was wondering about that on the thread about replacement nuts. So Earvana might work well with an LP Junior bridge?
yeah - it might work well on one that didn't have the notched ridge on it
think I'd still go for the intonatable one myself
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^ what Phil said. The fixed bridge doesn't need to be adjustable because it intonates 9s to 11s perfectly.
In various tunings or just standard? That'd be some hella-impressive engineering if it works in most tunings.
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^ what Phil said. The fixed bridge doesn't need to be adjustable because it intonates 9s to 11s perfectly.
In various tunings or just standard? That'd be some hella-impressive engineering if it works in most tunings.
Just standard - but that's what it's designed to do.
PRS do also make an adjustable bridge for certain models - the old SC250 Singlecut and the hollow/jazz models.
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There are fundamental flaws of which are partly due to cutting costs. They should make these improvements like the fixed bridge being non-adjustable. it is just not on! They should work on sorting things like this first.
There's no way in the world the fixed bridge is a cost-cutting exercise! It's one piece, lightweight, with no moving parts, because that gives great tone! Just like a Les Paul Junior. And the intonation is just fine unless you want to use heavy strings.
Bollocks to Ed Roman.
I agree about the fixed bridge - tuning was never an issue. I also do not get the rap he made about the heel from hell - on my PRS Custom there is nothing which gets in my way - try to compare that with a strat or tele type guitar.
The only thing I agree with Ed is the tuners - I prefer those locking tuners over the Kluson style stuff anyday.
Cheers Stephan
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The only thing I agree with Ed is the tuners - I prefer those locking tuners over the Kluson style stuff anyday.
They work better, but I just like the elegance (and light weight) of the vintage tuners.
Ed Roman was an idiot. He seemed to define the quality of a guitar in terms of inlays, binding, gold hardware and fancy timber tops. Nothing to do with tone.
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Ed Roman was an idiot. He seemed to define the quality of a guitar in terms of inlays, binding, gold hardware and fancy timber tops. Nothing to do with tone.
Not to forget ebony fretboards and 24 frets! As if these could define the quality of a guitar.
Cheers Stephan