Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Attica! on March 01, 2012, 02:03:11 PM
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I just wanted to say that I am not at all racist, I just found the article an interesting read. I'm interested in people's views and opinions
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia
... Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..
Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:
'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, WE will find the courage to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
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I like the take it or leave it stance taken by many senior australian politicians.
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I kind of agree. In UK (if thats where you're from), they should change laws because religion is getting ridiculous. There was a story where a couple went to Pakistan and the guys gf went out in a certain place without her face covered, and she was thrown in jail. She argued her religion was Christian, but that made it worse. The UK had to fight to get her deported.
This leads to my next point. I live in Oldham, and a few years ago they took down the Christmas Tree because of Muslims protesting. And if people will remember, we couldn't hang flags out of our window during the World Cup. Now I'm not racist, but do you agree that what I've just said is ridiculous?
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It's a bit odd that the likes of Rudd bleat about adherents of muslim when Oz was basically invaded by insane white men and effectively stolen.I've read articles saying some of the initial whites in Oz would lopp off the genitles off the
native Abbo's and watch them scream in agony.Pretty much the same in the US except it was the Injuns, but listening
to those who speak with pride how 'their' country was won is frightening.Funny old world.
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Based on that logic Australians should really be abiding by the Indienous people's ways. People lived there for 60,000 years before Europeans settled there.
It's a fine line, you have to abide by the countries laws you are in but if you look at the 'stolen generations' case you can see that it is impossible to force people to live your way.
This is a can-of-worms thread, a 10 page heated debate is bound to follow!
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well Australia was originally a place where they sent all the prisoners lol
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I kind of agree. In UK (if thats where you're from), they should change laws because religion is getting ridiculous. There was a story where a couple went to Pakistan and the guys gf went out in a certain place without her face covered, and she was thrown in jail. She argued her religion was Christian, but that made it worse. The UK had to fight to get her deported.
This leads to my next point. I live in Oldham, and a few years ago they took down the Christmas Tree because of Muslims protesting. And if people will remember, we couldn't hang flags out of our window during the World Cup. Now I'm not racist, but do you agree that what I've just said is ridiculous?
Oldham has a lot of problems sadly.
My friend showed the footage he took from his camera van in the riots of 2001. (He was a camera man for sky news)
It's sad how heated things still are more than 10 years on.
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This leads to my next point. I live in Oldham, and a few years ago they took down the Christmas Tree because of Muslims protesting.
I'd be intrigued to see a reputable news article detailing this. If it happened, I'm sure there are swathes of writing on the topic from all the major UK papers and websites.
The "wanting to live under sharia" nonsense is stupid. Nobody moans about the Beth Din. It's cool for Jews to have their own law courts but not Muslims? Why? Their proscribed universal laws are virtually identical and they have no power on criminal acts, only civil. Only a tiny minority of Muslims anywhere want to use sharia as a basis for all law. Hell, only five or so out of the 50+ Muslim nations have sharia based law codes.
Any Australian politician has a brass neck talking about integration anyway. Maybe when they stop marginalising the indigenous people they'll have a leg to stand on.
Afghan, strictly speaking, I'm sure you hate Muslims, not Islam. The same as any sensible person would hate Christians, not Christianity. Or Jews, not Judaism. The faiths are generally pretty friendly when taken in context. It's the followers that are the issue.
Regarding it being a potentially "racist" issue. Well, it does fall under racial legislation in the UK at least. Religious groups are ethnicities, and ethnicities count as "races" in terms of race-related laws. Whether that should be the case or not is debatable, obviously.
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It was all over the news lol.
And it doesn't change the fact that our Town's Christmas Tree and decorations got took down about 4-5 years ago. We've had em up since though.
EDIT: It happened in 2001 as well my dad just told me. It was around the time the National Front happened inoldham. Found loads of old articles on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Oldham_race_riots
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1413444.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1339366.stm
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(a) i thought gillard was teh PM?
(b) the way he's talking about "if you don't like God, leave" could also be applied to atheists and agnostics.
(c) last time i checked, they didn't ask the indigenous australians if they could come
(d) so you should learn the language of the country you come to? How many australians speak an aboriginal language? (yes i'm well aware i don't speak irish but then i'm not spouting cr@p, either)
don't get me wrong- I have little time for religious extremism (of any religion- claiming only islam has extremists is ridiculous, we have the DUP here :lol: ), but i have little time for reactionary bullshiteeee either.
EDIT: australians speak english? o_O
:lol: :D
(obviously that's a joke, i'm well aware i have a regional accent too)
\/ if someone makes stupid points that are clearly illogical and hypocritical, i reserve the right to call them on it (not the TS, i mean the ex-aussie PM). to the best of my knowledge, i've never started a political thread myself.
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Can we go back to discussing which picks we all use please?
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(a) i thought gillard was teh PM?
(b) the way he's talking about "if you don't like God, leave" could also be applied to atheists and agnostics.
(c) last time i checked, they didn't ask the indigenous australians if they could come
(d) so you should learn the language of the country you come to? How many australians speak an aboriginal language? (yes i'm well aware i don't speak irish but then i'm not spouting cr@p, either)
don't get me wrong- I have little time for religious extremism (of any religion- claiming only islam has extremists is ridiculous, we have the DUP here :lol: ), but i have little time for reactionary bullshiteeeeeeee either.
EDIT: australians speak english? o_O
:lol: :D
(obviously that's a joke, i'm well aware i have a regional accent too)
I just wish everyone could peacefully co-exist. And you have a very good point about the Aboriginies (or how you spell it). I hate racism. I've got 2 mates who died from it back in the 2001 riots, just for dropping off a DVD at the rental place, and another with brain damage who luckily survived.I don't care the race, religion, country; but anybody who inflicts violence on an innocent person in the name of religion should be shot
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oh i agree, i don't like violence either
we have a fair bit of religio-political based violence here ;)
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Kevin Rudd never actually said this at all. Some other Aussie Politicians have said bits of it, here, there and everywhere, but in reality, it's an agglomeration of mined quotes and spun sugar.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/australia.asp
...and it's a load of old c--k.
Also, the idea of Islam as monolithic and only true when it's militant is just $%&#ing silly.
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Anyways...on a lighter note...Which pick is your Holy Religion? lol
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"And if people will remember, we couldn't hang flags out of our window during the World Cup. Now I'm not racist, but do you agree that what I've just said is ridiculous?"
I do agree, yes. It's ridiculous. It also never actually happened. Sure, there was talk of such things, and some froth in the press, but find me a single creditable example of someone having to take down a flag because it was offensive to Muslims (not because it was a breach of planning law, or somehow hazardous), and I'll cheerfully follow it up with a youtube post of me eating my cycling shoes. Boiled or Fried.
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We're a small area, it wasn't National. But it happened just after Christmas when they said it's no longer Christmas and it felt like we were just dangling it at them. It happened, I live here, and I remember it perfectly well because their was a riot at college over it when we got back
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"And if people will remember, we couldn't hang flags out of our window during the World Cup. Now I'm not racist, but do you agree that what I've just said is ridiculous?"
I do agree, yes. It's ridiculous. It also never actually happened. Sure, there was talk of such things, and some froth in the press, but find me a single creditable example of someone having to take down a flag because it was offensive to Muslims (not because it was a breach of planning law, or somehow hazardous), and I'll cheerfully follow it up with a youtube post of me eating my cycling shoes. Boiled or Fried.
I definitely know them flags on Cars were banned. Just found load of articles on it. It wasn't the goverment that issued the ban, it was more local councils. People did it anyway lol
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If you've found loads of articles, perhaps we could see them. I mean, this is the internet and all.
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If you've found loads of articles, perhaps we could see them. I mean, this is the internet and all.
This is the articles I mentioned about the councils banning flags on cars, etc. Like I said, it wasn't government, it was more local councils. Here's a few:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1285492/Council-workers-banned-flying-England-flags-OWN-cars.html
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1241490_victory_over_binmens_world_cup_flags_ban
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/World-Cup-Fury-as-offensive-England-flags-banned-by-housing-association-in-Cambridge-article464951.html
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He's not a patch on the dreamboat Brian Cox.
Ahhhhh. Got logged out and lost a big post.
I find it difficult to accept that anyone familiar with the Quran, it's history of interpretation and hermeneutics would think it universally negative. Or indeed hate it or the religion it presents. As I say, it stands alone amongst texts of its era in presenting in a glorifying context a secular, religiously free society.
Again, saying it inexorably leads to sharia is nonsense.
RE: Those articles. One banning was due to health and safety bollocks on binmen's vans. The other two were not at the behest of Muslims.
I never said Muslims? I said due to being racist, as they didn't want people in the UK who didn't support England to feel uncomfortable. ANd it doesn't matter if it happened or not, it's the fact that things like this even get considered. It just shows there's some sad people out there who like to just be awkward and ruin people's fun.
Sorry, it was the tree you said was directly because of Muslim protest. The one that was the only case in British history but sported zero news coverage.
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If you've found loads of articles, perhaps we could see them. I mean, this is the internet and all.
This is the articles I mentioned about the councils banning flags on cars, etc. Like I said, it wasn't government, it was more local councils. Here's a few:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1285492/Council-workers-banned-flying-England-flags-OWN-cars.html
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1241490_victory_over_binmens_world_cup_flags_ban
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/World-Cup-Fury-as-offensive-England-flags-banned-by-housing-association-in-Cambridge-article464951.html
All of those articles carry the classic "caveat in paragraph 19", as identified by Ben Goldacre. The headline and the bulk of the story is given over to the sensational headline and the wounded party, and a scant bit of regard paid to the person doing the (not actual) Banning, and their reasons for it.
It had little to do with being offensive, either, or racist. It largely comes down to something very simple. Some people like to thing they have special dispensation to display emblems or whatever on other peoples property or vehicles, and like to moan their arses off when they're told they can't. Incapable of accepting they're subject to rules and regulations, they lash out at an outgroup for someone to blame, because they're too damned thick and lazy for a little introspection. Entitlement is a gruesome thing.
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If we're to accept the hyperbolic and reactionary presentation of the attempt by muslim extremists to conquer the free world with sharia law, and are really faced with the decision between a 'free' country that is forced to maintain as much freedom as practicable for as many as possible by rejecting a few that would deny most freedoms to everyone, then yes, its all good. Do that.
But the reality is, we arent. Its grandstanding, nothing more.
Genuinely racist or not, genuine threat of sharia law or not, he knows hes got a demographic of nationalists to appeal to by taking a "strong" stance against a perceived (i.e. imaginary) threat or pollution of an equally tribal, if largely preferable way of life and he can get votes of those dumb spear-rattling meatheads (a similarly viable practice here).
I have no love nor tolerance for any religion. Islam, christianity and any other imaginary friend having, cognicidal and occasionally homicidal and every now and then genocidal idiot can take their overwritten medieval magic book of rules and shove it. Or at least keep their quaint little fantasies to themselves and not expect anyone else to act or live like their delusions should be of any importance or concern to them. Any attempt to impose religious dogma (or its side effects like teaching creationism or prohibiting certain kinds of medical research or blanket prevention of abortions or condemnation of contraceptives or etc etc etc) on a country as a whole is repugnant.
With that in mind, its just a tiny bit contradictory as $%&# that he goes on to say that his "free" country is a definitionally and near-universally christian one, and if you dont like that youre free to.....leave.
I've long maintained that the only society that has genuine religious freedom is a secular one. Because its true. As I say, I have no love for religions of any sort, little but contempt in fact, but you should have the right to pursue or practice whatever one (or bizarre ill-thought-out new-agey combination of them) you want.
Its like the x factor or whatever cr@ps in the charts these days; I'm perfectly happy for people to indulge in it so long as its not forced on me. I dont have to listen to it, and likewise I wont be hijacking CFM with a small heavily armed team of metal ninjas to play origin, nile, hour of penance and behemoths discographies back to back. Though I'd really, really like to.
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MDV... I agree. PDT_003
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MDV... I agree. PDT_003
+1
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Can we go back to discussing which picks we all use please?
au contraire! this thread was obviously going to be a "high-brow debate thread" from the title, therefore uninterested parties can stay well out of it :)
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FROM MDV :
"...I have no love nor tolerance for any religion. Islam, christianity and any other imaginary friend having, cognicidal and occasionally homicidal and every now and then genocidal idiot can take their overwritten medieval magic book of rules and shove it. Or at least keep their quaint little fantasies to themselves and not expect anyone else to act or live like their delusions should be of any importance or concern to them. Any attempt to impose religious dogma (or its side effects like teaching creationism or prohibiting certain kinds of medical research or blanket prevention of abortions or condemnation of contraceptives or etc etc etc) on a country as a whole is repugnant..."
Couldn't have put it better myself sir !! 8)
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Well I, for one, am glad that this is thread is effectively over.
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dangit the quote system's not working
anyway i more or less agree with mark's post, though i'd be less confrontational towards religion- i'm more of an agnostic than atheist anyway, not to mention it does more harm than good (much like when religious people want something banned,it makes everyone else want to see it more), and also religion isn't the only reason for killing anyone, there are a bunch of opportunistic chancers about who'll use any reason to get people to kill for them.
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The pathways to transcendent peace, my brethren, are mother of pearl coloured Fender celluloid heavy picks, Om mani padme hum.....
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Oh, $%&#ing hell I love you guys :D
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I don't know what people have against a type of cloth...
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MDV... I agree. PDT_003
...just gonna go check if waters still wet and the skies still blue...
I'm confused :lol:
Srediah Law requires the use of Tortex Jazz III. Infidels!
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Regarding it being a potentially "racist" issue. Well, it does fall under racial legislation in the UK at least. Religious groups are ethnicities, and ethnicities count as "races" in terms of race-related laws. Whether that should be the case or not is debatable, obviously.
I'm not entirely sure that's true actually, especially as the third sentence isn't accurate. Judaism falls under racial legislation because the religion and the ethnicity are inextricably linked (very difficult to become Jewish if you weren't born Jewish). Other religions fall under the more modern religious hatred laws.
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well all Australians are evolved versions of English prisoners who not only have destroyed and killed aboriginal culture forever, but they also still have the now ancient imperialistic view that was forced on the world in the 18th century, we have moved on since slavery....
I'm not religious but I do think Muslims especially in the UK are subject to extremely unfair racism controlled by the press to make us think they are 'all terrorists' which is complete nonsense, it sells though and makes them a lot of money but I AINT BUYING IT