Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst42 on March 25, 2012, 07:49:05 PM
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OK, I've decided to take the Holydiver out of my Jackson and return it to BKP to have the cover removed and turned into an open poled zebra. I will then put that pickup into my PRS SE Custom 24 and put a matching Holydiver in the neck of that guitar too. That leaves me with the question of what to put into the bridge of my Jackson. I'd like to keep all of the qualities I like in the Holydiver (thick, fat, fluid, smooth etc.) but make it sound rather bigger and with enough compression that I'll never feel the need to use a compressor with it. The Jackson is my main lead guitar so it needs to be really good for soloing and cut through well. Looking at the range, it sounds to me like a Warpig is the one I'm looking for but I'm unsure as to whether I need an A-Pig or C-Pig and whichever it is, do I need it covered or open poled. Any help would be appreciated or am I on the wrong lines and I need a different pickup?
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If you want organic and sweet top end its definitely a A5 warpig. I own them both and the A5 being open cover and the Ceramic being covered.
I'm actually about to buy the Holy diver and asked tim about it for my Basswood guitar. He basically confirmed what i was already thinking which was I wanted something along the same lines as the A5 warpig just a little less and more tight bass and a little more trebs while keeping all the great qualities. Bass isn't overpowering or flumsy or anything it's very fluid sounding especially in my mahogany ESP LTD F-400fm where it currently sits and i LOVE its lead sound and how i can go from that to chunky heavy chording.
I'll be switching it out to try the Ceramic one as im curious lol but after reading your description i think the A5 would sit perfectly.
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My maple neck-thru Jackson shouldn't be as bassy as your guitar so I imagine that if it will cut through there, it should be tight enough in mine. I hate mush and with all that bass on the Warpig I'd wondered if I'd have to go ceramic to keep that articulation. However, I'm pleased to hear that the A-Pig will cut it OK as after years with ceramic pickups, since I got the Holydiver I've been really taken by the lead tone of Alnico V.
Alnico Warpig it is then unless someone diagrees. Hopefully I should have the money for that next month :D
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In case you don't know of this thread
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15397.0
Take a listen. One of the best shootouts if not the best for lead tone.
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The Warpig bridge tone sounds great to me. There are certainly similarities with the Holydiver bridge but it sounds that bit fuller and sweeter. I notice you said the bass in the Holydiver should be tighter but I'm hoping there's not that much difference in its articulation as the Holydiver I have is covered and the Warpig will be open. Can't wait to get it :D
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Open is the way to go since it has such a sweet top end its nice to open it up a bit. I should be ordering the HD in a couple days so i'll be a happy camper too lol. There shouldn't be much diff in the articulation. I'll know personally in a bit and will be able to do a side by side comparison myself!
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alnico miracle man
it's a lot like the pig, but without the fuzzy mids
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I've never heard of an Alnico Miracle Man :?
Anyway, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the A-Pig and Holydiver once you're in a position to do a comparison so please either post your thoughts here of PM me :D
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I've never heard of an Alnico Miracle Man :?
I don't think you can order an Alnico Miracle Man bridge pickup, as such, but the MM neck has the same DC resistance as the bridge, only with an Alnico V magnet.
So you could try that in the bridge position (unless you need wide spacing)
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Just ordered the HD bridge whoot! So yea I'll do that comparison and might be able to record some clips too.
As for the Alnico MM what you do is order the Neck Miracle man and just use it for the bridge. Or at least that's what I've read. Ask around to make sure. It would prob sound a lot like the warpig but with added brightness, tighter lows and less mids but thats speculation on my part.
Down the road I'll prob buy that to compliment the HD bridge in my basswood anyways. Little poor at the moment though lol.
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I confess that the idea of an Alnico Miracle Man really intrigues me as your description makes it sound like just what I'm after. However, as my guitar has an OFR bridge I'd need 53mm spacing so I assume that means the pickup is a non-starter for me :( My only real concern with the A-Pig is the huge amount of bass it seems to have and the fear that it will swamp everything else and lose articulation. Of course, the language used may be the problem because when I read 'if in your face presence is your thing this is a no go because its almost the complete opposite' it makes me think of something a little muddy and I hate that, hence the presence is usually maxed out on my amp. However, that same post also describes it as 'fluid bottom end while still remaining tight', which suggests something that is highly articulate and will cut through with ease, rather like my Holydiver. I have about a month before I have the money so I will await CanadianMetalhead's comments with great anticipation :D
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Just in case this is an issue for anything else, I was going to order an A-Pig with allen bolts and open-poled to maximise the articulation and bring out the treble a bit more. I had assumed that the allen bolts would provide a more focused sound and hence increase articulation but when I mentioned it to BKP I was told:
'Going with the screw option on the Warpigs will give you a little bit more clarity and output compared to the bolts, and an open coil humbucker has more presence in the high end.'
It seems I was only half right.
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I've never heard of an Alnico Miracle Man :?
I don't think you can order an Alnico Miracle Man bridge pickup, as such, but the MM neck has the same DC resistance as the bridge, only with an Alnico V magnet.
So you could try that in the bridge position (unless you need wide spacing)
yeah, the neck miracle man is pretty much the same as the bridge, but with an alnico 5 magnet
I don't think Tim would refuse to make a 53 mm, since it's not some sort of customization
some guitars do have wider string spacing in the neck position
I think USA jacksons have trembuckers in the neck
can't compare much the diver to the pig as the pig was the only model I didn't try in a les paul
the pig has a quite unique tone and midrange character, and you'll hear it in most clips and videos
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I should have it by friday (( i hope! )) so i'll def have a good side by side comparison.
By the way have you asked Tim or the BKP guys about any of this? They should know :P
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I did email them and they did eventually say that the A-Pig would be best but frankly didn't sound convinced it was entirely like a 'Holydiver on steroids', which is kinda what I'm after. As I've said before, there's not that much in the contemporary range which is obviously like the Holydiver (warm, thick, fluid, smooth etc.) so choices are a bit limited. When I started looking at it, only the Warpig and A-Bomb sounded close and to be honest, I think BKP would have suggested an A-Bomb instead had it not been for the fact that I've already tried that one in my Jackson and really didn't like it. The A-Bomb was just too harsh and edgy while the Holydiver is smooth and thick, yet I always love the clips I hear of an A-Bomb so I was certainly disappointed with it. Maybe now I'm putting the Holydiver into the PRS I will prefer the difference an A-Bomb would give me but I'm not in a rush to take that route just to return it again. CanadianMetalhead however does make the A-Pig sound like what I'm after so I'm happy to wait and hear his thoughts once he's tried the Holydiver.
As for the Miracle Man with an Alnico V magnet; I mentioned it to them in passing but all Ben said was that they didn't do a bridge Miracle Man with an alnico magnet so I assumed it couldn't be done as there was no hint that they could make one with a 53mm spacing. I agree it must be possible so perhaps I should press it further, though my impression is that BKP are increasingly unwilling to do anything other than stock. It's understandable as the company gets bigger and more successful but also sad because it was that highly personalised feel that first drew me to BKP. Before I explore this further with them, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's tried an alnico Miracle Man in the bridge position to learn more about what it's like. I'd be especially interested in comparisons to a Holydiver and A-Pig.
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e-mail Tim directly and ask for a 53mm neck MM to replace a neck trembucker or something
I don't see why they wouldn't make one
don't say you want a custom alnico bridge pup
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Good idea :D
You seem to be the only person who has direct experience of using the neck Miracle Man in the bridge so could you tell me more about what it sounds like, especially in comparison to a Holydiver and A-Pig?
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Good idea :D
You seem to be the only person who has direct experience of using the neck Miracle Man in the bridge so could you tell me more about what it sounds like, especially in comparison to a Holydiver and A-Pig?
there's FELINEGUITARS and slate, I think (never heard of that guy again)
I'm pretty sure other users have tried it too
didn't try them in similar guitars
had the diver in 3 les pauls and a sg
briefly tried the warpigs in a brazilian mahogany 7 string bolt-on ibanez RG and the alnico miracle man in a mahogany set neck cort katana
well... had the alnico miracle man in the neck of a couple les pauls as well, if that matters, and played it in the neck of another cort katana
my impression is that it sounded like a middle ground between the other high output alnico models
sounds quite modern like a nailbomb, fat like a warpig and the top is smooth like the diver
similar amount of compression of the warpig but without that midrange grind
sounds pretty different from the ceramic model, since there's no mid scoop or treble spike on higher strings
FELINE usually compares it to the suhr aldrich, but I can't confirm that
I'd say it's somewhat like a dimarzio tonezone or something, but with the BKP top end clarity and midrange openness
A Miracle Man with an alnico 5 magnet
The neck position MM is just such a beast
I asked Tim babout the Aldrich pickup and that is what he suggested
hey there ,
i have an alnico v MM bridge in a custom made SG .
very even tonal response - not slightly scooped in the mids like the ceramic version .
it also loses that metallic edge in the bottom and the top - also not quite as hot .
i have recordings here of both MM versions (ceramic and alnico) in the bridge of the same guitar , and to my ears the alnico sounds a lot bigger and more organic .
but of course , it depends what sound you're after .
slate
:D
hi ,
i had all the following in my 67 V -
miracle man ( too scooped )
painkiller ( mid hump )
cold sweat - nice
warpig - nice
miracle man alnico V - very nice
my favorite was the mm aV - very even tonal response and big organic sound .
not as high output as the regular MM or the painkiller though .
i'd say that would be a good choice going from 57 classics .
:D
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The Doug Aldrich tone is godly so that's a good start. His tone does sound very much like a Holydiver but with more power, more compression and fatter. If you could add a bit more articulation than he has, that's exactly what I'm after :D
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Before I explore this further with them, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's tried an alnico Miracle Man in the bridge position to learn more about what it's like. I'd be especially interested in comparisons to a Holydiver and A-Pig.
I afraid I cannot help on this one but just in case I missed it: have you tried the Holydiver in the PRS bridge spot to be sure it is what you want there?
Cheers Stephan
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I emailed Tim about the alnico MM and he said:
'I wouldn't recommend using the MM neck pickup in the bridge position - it's a suggestion that has been put to me in the past but not one I make myself as I don't find it satisfactory. It really needs a ceramic magnet to drive the bottom end sufficiently in the bridge position otherwise the bass lacks any real drive.'
I guess it's down to the A-Pig or leave the Holydiver there. I haven't tried the HD in the PRS yet but I have no doubt it will be good, though I'm having the cover removed to give it a bit more cut in the mahogany. I'll wait and see what CanadianMetalhead has to say when he's tried the Holydiver so he can compare it to the A-Pig properly but if I do end up leaving the HD in the Jackson, I'll revert to my original idea of putting a set of Abraxas pups in the PRS instead. Can't lose really :D
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I emailed Tim about the alnico MM and he said:
'I wouldn't recommend using the MM neck pickup in the bridge position - it's a suggestion that has been put to me in the past but not one I make myself as I don't find it satisfactory. It really needs a ceramic magnet to drive the bottom end sufficiently in the bridge position otherwise the bass lacks any real drive.'
I guess it's down to the A-Pig or leave the Holydiver there. I haven't tried the HD in the PRS yet but I have no doubt it will be good, though I'm having the cover removed to give it a bit more cut in the mahogany. I'll wait and see what CanadianMetalhead has to say when he's tried the Holydiver so he can compare it to the A-Pig properly but if I do end up leaving the HD in the Jackson, I'll revert to my original idea of putting a set of Abraxas pups in the PRS instead. Can't lose really :D
well it "drives" the bass harder than the diver
but, it is a cleaner type of saturation than the ceramic MM for sure
I'll replace the neck cold sweat in my greco les paul bridge position with a black dog I have laying around and then I might borrow my bandmates alnico miracle man and give it a try in this guitar as well
not sure if I want that amount of compression, but it certainly matches the guitar tone (it's a quite bright les paul, compared to my 70's gibson custom)
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I'll replace the neck cold sweat in my greco les paul bridge position with a black dog I have laying around and then I might borrow my bandmates alnico miracle man and give it a try in this guitar as well
That will be an interesting comparison for sure!
Cheers Stephan
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I suspect I may have my terminology wrong again :?. I'm talking about 'compression' because when I use my compressor pedal it seems to create a thicker and more fluid tone but reading various posts, I get the impression that compression is not what I'm describing so perhaps the word I'm looking for is 'saturation'. What I think of as a saturated tone seems to cover a range of styles. To me, Tony Iommi has a saturated sound and I love it, providing it retains articulation but I also hear saturation in a lot of what Orianthi does, yet they're vastly different styles. If this is accurate, perhaps it's more accurate to say that what I'm after is a pickup that is similar to a Holydiver but has a bigger and more saturated sound.
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I suspect I may have my terminology wrong again :?. I'm talking about 'compression' because when I use my compressor pedal it seems to create a thicker and more fluid tone but reading various posts, I get the impression that compression is not what I'm describing so perhaps the word I'm looking for is 'saturation'.
Confession time:
In all these years I've never really understood what people mean when they say one pickup sounds more "compressed" than another. :oops:
(Is it the opposite of "open"?)
A compressor pedal evens out the volume of picked notes, "squeezes" the dynamic range of the signal and increases sustain (I always think of the Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer). Does that mean a "compressed" sounding pickup smoothes out (or suppresses) picking dynamics? If so, what physical properties of a pickup would cause that effect?
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Does that mean a "compressed" sounding pickup smoothes out (or suppresses) picking dynamics?
yes
just try any dimarzio, gibson or duncan wound over 10k :lol:
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Tim explained it to me as 'compression tends to make things sound smaller and more focused', which seems to me is exactly what the Holydiver isn't. On that basis I imagine the Warpig can't be too compressed either but tighter pickups like Painkiller, Aftermath etc. must have a lot of compression. As ceramic pickups seem to be generally tighter than alnico powered pickups, I'm guessing that ceramic pups are naturally more compressed than alnico versions. I'm guessing of course so someone else may easily tell me I'm wrong and I'm still left confused as to why 'compression' in a pickup makes it sound 'smaller and more focused' while a compression pedal seems to have the opposite effect for me.
All very confusing :? Either way, I'm still looking for a bridge pickup that is like a Holydiver but with a bigger and more saturated sound. Anyone help? Is it still a Warpig and if so, is it still the alnico version?
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Does that mean a "compressed" sounding pickup smoothes out (or suppresses) picking dynamics?
yes
just try any dimarzio, gibson or duncan wound over 10k :lol:
So presumably "compression defeating" factors would be:
Lower output/DC resistance
Asymmetrically wound coils
Scatterwinding
Based on that, I think a "compressed" sound can be fun sometimes, but on the whole I much prefer an "open", more dynamic sound.
Sorry for the hijack! :oops:
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I remember some russian guy posted a comparison between the duncan JB and the alnico warpig in the same guitar on harmony central a couple years ago
let me see if I can find the thread
edit:
JB http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=935576&songID=7764506
WP http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=935576&songID=7764508
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Tim explained it to me as 'compression tends to make things sound smaller and more focused', which seems to me is exactly what the Holydiver isn't. On that basis I imagine the Warpig can't be too compressed either but tighter pickups like Painkiller, Aftermath etc. must have a lot of compression. As ceramic pickups seem to be generally tighter than alnico powered pickups, I'm guessing that ceramic pups are naturally more compressed than alnico versions. I'm guessing of course so someone else may easily tell me I'm wrong and I'm still left confused as to why 'compression' in a pickup makes it sound 'smaller and more focused' while a compression pedal seems to have the opposite effect for me.
All very confusing :? Either way, I'm still looking for a bridge pickup that is like a Holydiver but with a bigger and more saturated sound. Anyone help? Is it still a Warpig and if so, is it still the alnico version?
Yep that's the alnico warpig
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Have you got your Holydiver installed yet? I'm really looking forward to hearing about how it compares to both the A-Pig and C-Pig. The A-Pig sounds like it has that smooth, fluid tone of the Holydiver while the C-Pig seems to have the more attractive EQ based on the website.
I take it you've not found that comparison with the JB Eric?
EDIT: I meant to say, last night one of the people I teach guitar to came along with a guitar that was loaded with a Seymour Duncan Invader and I had a go on it. My expectations weren't high given how unimpressed I was with the JB and Hotrails I had but it was a really nice pickup. It did everything I seem to be looking for in a new pickup for my Jackson. It was really 'big' sounding and gave that lovely thick tone that I want in the Jackson. It was also really powerful and I'd certainly describe it as a saturated tone that seemed surprisingly fluid. In the short try I had, it seemed reasonably articulate too but I imagine it would struggle to retain that articulation as the volume and gain rose. If I wasn't such a loyal BKP user I'd simply buy an Invader for the Jackson but I assume there is going to be a BKP version that is 'the same but better'. Actually, probably not quite the same as I'd still like it a little less harsh than the Invader and a bit more smooth. Anyway, I thought I'd mention it as so far it's the closest thing I've come across to what I'm after.
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Not installed yet :( don't even have it yet lol. I think the tracking info has it at vancouver on it's way to edmonton (( that's where i live )). Great thing is that i do my own guitar stuff so once i get it i can start the comparisons. I can do the CWP too if you want :P
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Well I've been in touch with Tim now and explained the situation to him. I said I loved the Holydiver and also liked an Invader but without the mush. I said my 2 options were either a Warpig in the Jackson and move the Holydiver to the PRS or leave the Holydiver in the Jackson and put something like Abraxas in the PRS. This is what he said:
'I wouldn't worry about the WP being a one trick pony, the Alnico version is extremely versatile and in a bright, light timbered body will still reproduce a very percussive and rich tone - this can also be tailored by pot value too, ie 550K -1meg pots for extra cut if required. I love the idea of the HD in the PRS and partnered with an Em neck you'll have an excellent palette of classic rock tones both clean and dirty.'
So there it is. A-Pig for the Jackson, move the Holydiver to the bridge of the PRS and put an Emerald in the neck. No idea what the Emerald neck is like but as it's a PAF style pickup I assume it will cover those early, creamy Dave Murray tones I like so much.
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I'm actually very interested in the emerald neck for my basswood guy. BTW just switched the Alnico warpig to my basswood guitar and added 1 meg pots and it $%&#ing rocks lol. I hope the holy diver will react the same way with 1 meg pots. I'll have to buy more now 8).
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I assume that what's in my guitars at the moment are 500k pots so am I right in thinking that 1 meg pots will give the pickup more treble, thus increasing the cut and 250k pots will increase the bass?
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The best analogy for the pots is that the 250k pot is like putting a blanket over your amp and the 1 meg pot is like taking it off. 500k being in the middle.
So it's not just a treb/bass thing but more a brightness/openess vs dark/closed sound if that makes sense.
All i know is that the 1 meg pot made my sweet sounding but aggressive AWP to sound very crunchy and open with the same cut as my ceramic warpig but without the ceramic modern metal sound lol.
I'll be installing my new neck later (( Wenge maple striped / Ebony fingerboard with stainless steel frets baby YEA )) so i hope the holy diver reacts the same kinda way as the warpig did cause man this guitar is gonna be KILLER when it's done lol.
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Just installed the Holy diver. The differences I noticed were more crunch, grind and thickness to the mids but not less of them. Tighter and a little less lows and a bit more treble. Both have that smoothness in the trebs too.
Btw if you ever get bored of your guitar neck in either of your guitars and wanna try something new. This Wenge neck has rediculous and I mean REDICULOUS low-mid punch and howl. I think it'd be better suited to guitars with a tighter low end though. The holy diver can barely handle the lows lol and i had to back off the AWP a bit so the chunk wouldn't get muddy.
Anyways GL with the new pickup when you get it!
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So there it is. A-Pig for the Jackson, move the Holydiver to the bridge of the PRS and put an Emerald in the neck. No idea what the Emerald neck is like but as it's a PAF style pickup I assume it will cover those early, creamy Dave Murray tones I like so much.
The Emerald neck is just GORGEOUS, got the combination of Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck in my Fame PRS Style guitar and that is just a great combo! What the Emerald delivers is just a great singing, yet clean lead sound and stellar cleans.
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That sounds like a great combination to have then. My favourite neck tone for solos is undoubtedly the early Dave Murray tone when he was using a DiMarzio PAF pickup so would I be correct in thinking the Emerald is rather like that?