Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Vintage Metal on May 19, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm pretty much wanting to know which pickups would be great for that early to mid era Yngwie tone?
I see that the Trilogy Suites look a great, but I'm afraid they may be a bit too high output?
This leads me to my next question, Yngwie's and Joe Stump's Dimarzios are very high on the DC rating(more or less Sinner ratings), but yet again very low output. This makes me think maybe the Trilogy Suite's may work? BKPs DC to Output Rating really confuses me.
I just really love Yngwie's & Joe Stump's tone when playing rhythm. You can hear every note in the complex catchy chords within the riffs. But again I really need that great neoclassical soloing tone.
Like I said I'm looking for that early Yngwie tone. Kind of up to the Fire & Ice album. I really hated it when it got post Seventh Sign. It just sounded muddy and awful with no emotion.
Thanks
EDIT: I know it's the pickup section, but I thought I'd add it here as it's still kind of Yngwie related. I'm looking for a very versatile Marshall, and I wondered whether the JVM can nail his Plexi tone? Also been considering the Vintage Modern and was curious on peoples views about this?
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The issue of output ratings and DC resistance is an ongoing issue here and I would certainly prefer it if they published output levels as it can be confusing, especially now we have the high output Black Hawks that have a very low DC resistance. Anyway, I use Trilogy Suites in the neck and middle positions of my Jackson and I don't find them to be too hot at all. Quite the reverse in fact; I expected far more power than they actually produce but the upshot is that they are very articulate and versatile and I believe are aimed primarily at Yngwie's earlier tone.
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Trilogy Suites definitely.
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Would you say the Sinners are more like his later tone with the Duncans?
With the Trilogies, how do they compare towards the Dimarzio HS-3 and Dimarzio YJM neck? I just love the clarity of his tone on songs like You Don't Remember, I'll Never Forget and stuff. I'm just torn between the actual Dimarzios, or wether BKP make something a bit more unique.
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I've played Bare Knuckle, DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan & PRS pickups and to my mind nothing compares to Bare Knuckles. They are unique to my mind only in being vastly superior. You get what you pay for here. Of those I've tried, Seymour Duncan were the worst and they were soon ditched out of my Jackson in favour of Bare Knuckles. I've been more impressed with the PRS HFS and VB pickups that come stock in my SE Custom 24 but they're also going in favour of Bare Knuckles. DiMarzios were, in my experience, a lot better than Seymour Duncan and I loved them right up until the moment I tried Bare Knuckles. There was no going back after that and now I'll only use Bare Knuckles. Getting DiMarzios will save you money and give you a decent tone but you'll have to live with the knowledge that the tone you have is second best and you could have had better.
I'm quite passionate about BKP. I should be on commission! 8)
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What are the Trilogy Suites like in the neck for both clean tones, and sweeped and shredded Yngwie type phrases?
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why not having an actual 50w plexi?
no other marshall will you give you that tone, except the YJM
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because I play a lot of other music besides the neoclassical shred thing. I play a lot heavier music as well as music like Satriani and bands like Kamelot, Hammerfall, GnR, Skid Row. I'm not after the exact Yngwie tone, just something which can nail that style. That's why I was wondering about the JVM and Vintage Modern.
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I'm thinking the Vintage Metal as the JVM may be overkill and have too many bells and whistles. I was thinking maybe an overdrive and distortion pedal (separately of course) pushed through it. I have my high gain amp so don't need this amp to be able to explore that terratory.
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a boosted Plexi or a master volume JMP/JCM 800 can achieve all those tones with a proper booster
the JVM is one of the highest gain amps on the market
gain around 2 on ch 3 is already heavily saturated double boosted 80's
sometimes a lower gain single channel amp can be as versatile as a multi channel amp
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Do you think a Vintage Modern may be a perfect amp to fit right in between then? I just don't want to restrict myself to the Plexi tone. I think something more modern that the Plexi, but not as modern as something like a Kerry King 800.
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I like the JVM myself as it covers all the bases you'll likely ever need.
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Do you think a Vintage Modern may be a perfect amp to fit right in between then? I just don't want to restrict myself to the Plexi tone. I think something more modern that the Plexi, but not as modern as something like a Kerry King 800.
not really
it's based on the JTM45, but modded with a quite high gain preamp circuit and a post phase inverter master volume (PPIMV) control
it has the bassy and round tone of the JTM, but sounds kinda fizzy to my ears
I don't think using a plexi or a JCM 800 restricts anyone, unless you want it to
that's what 90% of rock guitarists used back in the 70's and 80's and there are sooo many different tones from that era
they are extremely dynamic amps and react differently with different playing and different pedals
the JVM and the JCM 2000 are no near as sensitive
what is your price range?
it's hard to beat a good modded JMP or JCM, but a properly used stock old Marshall sounds killer
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No more than around £700 give or take. I need a good cab too so my limit for both is around the £1k mark. Second hand is an option. Obviously I'd like to go and test them out first. But it's always good to have a good foundation on what to expect.
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Why do so many guitarists have to have an amp and cab? What am I missing? I generally use 1X12 combos or a 2X12 combo at most as after that it's either going to have a mic shoved in front of it or it's simply too big and cumbersome for the venue or both. Hell, last time I saw Joe Satriani he was using a JVM combo with a mic in front of it and the venue was probably a lot bigger than most guitarists on forums. The only time I had an amp and 4X12 cab, I hated it. It was a pig to cart around and I was always struggling for space at gigs. Sure, it had a bigger sound than the combo but I wouldn't go back to the amp and cab for anything as the difference wasn't THAT great and certainly nobody in the audience gave a rat's ass either way. I've even spoken to a number of pro guitarists who have told me not to bother with an amp and cab as it's not needed. Is it just that it looks cool?
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MARSHALL-DSL-50-JCM2000-ONE-OWNER-NEW-WORLD-WIDE-SHIP-/251060782411
not a fan of this one, but that's probably the best you can get for the money, if you decide for a multi-channel Marshall head
there are quite cheap JCM 800 combos on ebay uk, though
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marshall-JCM800-100w-combo-amplifier-model-4211-/300712879258
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marshall-JCM-800-4212-2-x-12-Valve-Combo-Guitar-Amp-50W-/370613028796
these are the 2 channel JCM 800, that have extra diode clipping gain and different circuits
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Cheers for that. I'll really have to do my research into the JCM800.
And I'll be getting a Zilla 2x12 cab, not 4x12. That would just be overkill lolz.
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How does the 800 compare to the VM and JVM? I hear the JVM can explore both Plexi and 800 areas? Obviously not perfect. I have a guitar with the Emerald set in them, so would be nice to have something that would be great with these as to single coil shreddness. Something really open and organic. Very responsive too! I like my emotion to shine through in my playing. That's why I picked the Emeralds as to a contemporary pickup for metal.
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Why do so many guitarists have to have an amp and cab? What am I missing? I generally use 1X12 combos or a 2X12 combo at most as after that it's either going to have a mic shoved in front of it or it's simply too big and cumbersome for the venue or both. Hell, last time I saw Joe Satriani he was using a JVM combo with a mic in front of it and the venue was probably a lot bigger than most guitarists on forums. The only time I had an amp and 4X12 cab, I hated it. It was a pig to cart around and I was always struggling for space at gigs. Sure, it had a bigger sound than the combo but I wouldn't go back to the amp and cab for anything as the difference wasn't THAT great and certainly nobody in the audience gave a rat's ass either way. I've even spoken to a number of pro guitarists who have told me not to bother with an amp and cab as it's not needed. Is it just that it looks cool?
I guess it's just looks and the mentality of "bigger = better".
The first time I bought a tube amp I was going for a head and a 4x12. The shop owner actually convinced me NOT to get a 4x12 because it's overkill. Too loud and boomy for house use, impossible to move around and 2x the price of a 2x12. He said that 2x12 are easily sufficient for most gigs anyone will ever do and if not then it'll be mic'd anyway.
People still buy 4x12s from him but he doesn't even recommend it to most people.
Awesome guy, taught me something new and saved me money at his own expense... well not exactly at his own expense... I haven't bought an amp or pedals or even cables from anyone else since then.
Anyway, i ended up getting the 2x12 and it's perfect. Sounds great, loads of bass but not to boomy for house use like a 4x12. It's also almost as easy to carry around as my old 1x12 combo and performs better in live situations.
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Why do so many guitarists have to have an amp and cab? What am I missing? I generally use 1X12 combos or a 2X12 combo at most as after that it's either going to have a mic shoved in front of it or it's simply too big and cumbersome for the venue or both. Hell, last time I saw Joe Satriani he was using a JVM combo with a mic in front of it and the venue was probably a lot bigger than most guitarists on forums. The only time I had an amp and 4X12 cab, I hated it. It was a pig to cart around and I was always struggling for space at gigs. Sure, it had a bigger sound than the combo but I wouldn't go back to the amp and cab for anything as the difference wasn't THAT great and certainly nobody in the audience gave a rat's ass either way. I've even spoken to a number of pro guitarists who have told me not to bother with an amp and cab as it's not needed. Is it just that it looks cool?
I guess it's just looks and the mentality of "bigger = better".
The first time I bought a tube amp I was going for a head and a 4x12. The shop owner actually convinced me NOT to get a 4x12 because it's overkill. Too loud and boomy for house use, impossible to move around and 2x the price of a 2x12. He said that 2x12 are easily sufficient for most gigs anyone will ever do and if not then it'll be mic'd anyway.
People still buy 4x12s from him but he doesn't even recommend it to most people.
Awesome guy, taught me something new and saved me money at his own expense... well not exactly at his own expense... I haven't bought an amp or pedals or even cables from anyone else since then.
Anyway, i ended up getting the 2x12 and it's perfect. Sounds great, loads of bass but not to boomy for house use like a 4x12. It's also almost as easy to carry around as my old 1x12 combo and performs better in live situations.
I hear the Zilla Fatboy has the pump of a 4x12, in a much compact size. That'll be my next research: Cabinet Speakers. I hear the Fatboy are V30s which I like, but I'll need to research into if they're my ideal speakers
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Why do so many guitarists have to have an amp and cab? What am I missing? I generally use 1X12 combos or a 2X12 combo at most as after that it's either going to have a mic shoved in front of it or it's simply too big and cumbersome for the venue or both. Hell, last time I saw Joe Satriani he was using a JVM combo with a mic in front of it and the venue was probably a lot bigger than most guitarists on forums. The only time I had an amp and 4X12 cab, I hated it. It was a pig to cart around and I was always struggling for space at gigs. Sure, it had a bigger sound than the combo but I wouldn't go back to the amp and cab for anything as the difference wasn't THAT great and certainly nobody in the audience gave a rat's ass either way. I've even spoken to a number of pro guitarists who have told me not to bother with an amp and cab as it's not needed. Is it just that it looks cool?
I guess it's just looks and the mentality of "bigger = better".
The first time I bought a tube amp I was going for a head and a 4x12. The shop owner actually convinced me NOT to get a 4x12 because it's overkill. Too loud and boomy for house use, impossible to move around and 2x the price of a 2x12. He said that 2x12 are easily sufficient for most gigs anyone will ever do and if not then it'll be mic'd anyway.
People still buy 4x12s from him but he doesn't even recommend it to most people.
Awesome guy, taught me something new and saved me money at his own expense... well not exactly at his own expense... I haven't bought an amp or pedals or even cables from anyone else since then.
Anyway, i ended up getting the 2x12 and it's perfect. Sounds great, loads of bass but not to boomy for house use like a 4x12. It's also almost as easy to carry around as my old 1x12 combo and performs better in live situations.
I hear the Zilla Fatboy has the pump of a 4x12, in a much compact size. That'll be my next research: Cabinet Speakers. I hear the Fatboy are V30s which I like, but I'll need to research into if they're my ideal speakers
I've heard great stuff about the Zilla Fatboy too... I'd definitely check it out but I use an Orange PPC212 Closed Back and I love it. Orange 4x12s are great too but are sometimes too boomy... thats just what the 2x12 isn't.
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I really want a sound that cuts through. I find live performances in small gigs tend to be very boomy neways, so I'd like something less boomy. I found the bass player is usually the culprit, so I don't want to mush in with the bass. Something mid spectum I'd like.
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for small room gigs, a good 1x12 closed back cab with the right speaker really kicks as much ass as a 4x12...
best live tone I ever heard was Jerry Cantrell's tone in brazilian SWU festival last year...
he uses a miked Bogner 1x12 insided an isolation cabinet
I used to carry my 1960A with a pair of Scumback H75 (pre-rola G12H clones made by Weber) and a pair of MG Music Black Dogs (brazilian 50w greenback based speakers; same magnet and cone parts of the Weber Silver Bell)
although it sounds amazing with both of my 50w amps (a heavily modded '73 Marshall JMP and a custom Zambelli Hyperdrive), my rough cheap frontloaded closed back 1x12 with a Mesa Celestion Black Shadow sounded better at small rooms
unfortunately, one speaker can't hold as much abuse as a multi speaker setup, despite of having equivalent power handling and it ended up blown at a small gig after the third band
I set up the amp myself, and it wasn't that loud, but speakers can overheat quickly, specially under heavy distorted tones
so, tonewise it can sound really good, and also a relief for your back and shoulders, but it's not a healthy thing to always trust a 1x12 for gigs
just make sure you're not lending your cab or combo for other bands
there's no such thing as a 4x12 being overkill, though
it's all about projection
smaller cabs sound more directional, while a 4x12 tends to fill the ambient better
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How does the 800 compare to the VM and JVM? I hear the JVM can explore both Plexi and 800 areas? Obviously not perfect. I have a guitar with the Emerald set in them, so would be nice to have something that would be great with these as to single coil shreddness. Something really open and organic. Very responsive too! I like my emotion to shine through in my playing. That's why I picked the Emeralds as to a contemporary pickup for metal.
JVM is a good amp, but the circuit is so oversaturated to the point you can't a proper older amps tones
it's not like some of the boutique hot rodded marshalls (bogner, cameron, suhr) cause they simply went waaay too far on hot rodding it
unlike the Yngwie, the Randy, the Kerry King or the Slash amps, for example, that have messed up construction, but fine circuits
lowering the gain on a JVM gain channel isn't easy, and the low gain channels don't sound like a real low/mid gain amp
although I really enjoy its high gain metal tones AT LOW SETTINGS (which is still pretty high gain) I'd never call it an organic or open sounding or responsive amp
if having both heavy high gain distortion and cleans is your main goal, there are better amps, in my opinion
and as I said, a single channel JCM 800 or JMP has a lot more dynamics and can deliver a lot of different tones depending on guitar, pickups, pedals, playing style and settings
if you search the BKP Sound Clips section you'll find several clips recorded with Tim's JCM 800
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As I said, I already have a high gain amp for my high gain needs, so I don't need an amp that delivers them high gain modern tones. I'm after something that overdrives well and provides a good power metal tone. That's why I thought of a Vintage Modern as a few of my fav bands use that amp and thought it may suit my needs. For the highgain metal tones, the Peavey provides that. So I'd like something versatile, but regarding the mega high gain spectrum, that doesnt interest me. I just need something that "sings".
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Yngwie uses Jcm 2000's live. You may look into them. Im quite the odd guy around here, because i cant stand the JVM, but i love the dsl100 to bits.
That amp is simple, tried, tested and works for both shred and even extreme death metal, if you like that kinda stuff ;)
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Why do so many guitarists have to have an amp and cab? What am I missing? I generally use 1X12 combos or a 2X12 combo at most as after that it's either going to have a mic shoved in front of it or it's simply too big and cumbersome for the venue or both.
A 2x12 combo (heck, even a cheap 1x12 like the HRDx) is already a pain when it comes to bulk and weight as far as I'm concerned, and can easily be too loud for small venues, while still being too directional. Also, there are very few closed-back combos, and for some tones nothing beats a closed-back.
FWIW, a cab doesn't have to be a huge 4x12 neither - you can chose almost any configuration as long as it can handle your head's power - and a head is not necessarily a hi-wattage one neither, you can (now) find some very cool heads in the 15 / 30w range, which is enough for most situations AFAICT.
So it's not necessary a matter of SPL or "looking cool"... My current rig (18W head and small 4x10 marshall cab) is easier to carry and doesn't take much more space than my HRDx, and it has a way better projection so I don't have to be as loud to cut thru the mix.
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Yngwie uses Jcm 2000's live. You may look into them. Im quite the odd guy around here, because i cant stand the JVM, but i love the dsl100 to bits.
That amp is simple, tried, tested and works for both shred and even extreme death metal, if you like that kinda stuff ;)
I've seen Yngwie multiple times and I've never seen him use a JCM2000. It's not like his wall of Marshalls is hard to miss haha. I've always seen Plexis. Only time I've seen him play a JCM2000 is on an instructional video :S Hemay have experimented at one point though when he was doing his sig amp.
Plus he has his own sig amp now, so wouldn't be good promotion for Marshall if he was using a different amp to his sig lolz.
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Horses for courses but my 1X12 combo on an amp stand does very well and I've never felt the need for anything else.
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unlike the other two channel JCM 900, this is one of the finest sounding post 80's amps Marshall made (the other version has solid state distortion)
if you run, you can catch it for cheap
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1990-MARSHALL-JCM900-MASTER-VOLUME-MODEL-2500-50-WATT-AMPLIFIER-AMP-HEAD-/130692985268
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Oooh that's nice. Won't have the money until next week though :(
Back to the pickups though. What are the Trilogy Suites like in the neck for both clean tones, and sweeped and shredded Yngwie type phrases?
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Yngwie uses Jcm 2000's live. You may look into them. Im quite the odd guy around here, because i cant stand the JVM, but i love the dsl100 to bits.
That amp is simple, tried, tested and works for both shred and even extreme death metal, if you like that kinda stuff ;)
I've seen Yngwie multiple times and I've never seen him use a JCM2000. It's not like his wall of Marshalls is hard to miss haha. I've always seen Plexis. Only time I've seen him play a JCM2000 is on an instructional video :S Hemay have experimented at one point though when he was doing his sig amp.
Plus he has his own sig amp now, so wouldn't be good promotion for Marshall if he was using a different amp to his sig lolz.
I know his european rack was jcm 2000's. I saw it in a video a year or two back.. But i could be wrong. Im just quite certain of it.
I remember that death also used other amps than what you saw on the stage on their human tour. They had two walls of marshalls onstage. But behind them, chuck had a Solid State GK 250ML combo mic'ed up.. :)
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Oooh that's nice. Won't have the money until next week though :(
Back to the pickups though. What are the Trilogy Suites like in the neck for both clean tones, and sweeped and shredded Yngwie type phrases?
I don't have them, though I heard clips and read about it here on the forum. Designd for more modern tones, so should fit the bill for Yngwie and that kind of stuff. They are darker then say IT's, but clean up great.
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Trilogy Suites are the choice.
But I do think the DOD250 is an important part of that tone as well. If you get a reissue, you can mod them to the same specs as the original, or try a BYOC kit.
Its worth having an old opamp in there - changes the pedal quite alot IMHO. The reissue isn't bad, but its alot more fun when you mod it.
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I actually own the DOD Yngwie pedal so that's a start.
Another question I had was, what's the Trilogies like in terms of noise? I'm only familiar with Hum-Cancelling singlecoils. Is the hum you get annoying?
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I really didn't want singles for my Jackson so I fully intended to just use BKP in the bridge but in the end I just couldn't move away from BKP so I got Trilogy Suites instead. I must say I don't find them bad for noise at all. At high volume and high gain there's obviously more there than on a humbucker but nothing like as bad as I thought it would be and it certainly isn't bad enough to annoy me.
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a good noise gate in front of the amp can fix anything (except the amps noise)
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How has no one mentioned the Marshall 6100 30th Anniversary amp!? Oh well, I'll throw in a great word for it.mi justngotmone a couple weeks ago, and though I'm still in the honeymoon phase, I'll share my thoughts.
The cleans are the best Marshall cleans you've ever heard. I'd say you could put them up against any Fender or Roland.
The crunch channel is exactly what you're looking for. It has 3 voicings, JTM45, SLP, and JCM 900. All of them sound killer, and really gives you versatility as to what you want your tone to be.
Channel 3 lead just gives you a bit more of everything on channel 2, especially gain. Perfect for kicking on for solos as that extra gain/volume boost.
All in all this is an absoloutely KILLER amp, but not many know about it. It was made to be Marshall's best amp ever, Jim said so himself. I'd say this amp nails most tones from any amplifier they've made before 1992, and really is just a great amp. Look into it, you won't be disappointed.
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well, the clean channel has indeed a fender-like circuit, but the other channels are quite original
no plexi or jcm 900 in there
guess it does sound pretty good, but that should be heavy as $%&#
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I actually own the DOD Yngwie pedal so that's a start.
Not a bad pedal I think. But, I suggest putting one of these kits on it:
http://www.monteallums.com/pedal_mods.html#DOD
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That Marshall looks really good. I'm going to have a good look at that.
The pedal mods on that site are really cool. Just going through them all right now.
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That Marshall looks really good. I'm going to have a good look at that.
The pedal mods on that site are really cool. Just going through them all right now.
I've had a few of his kits over the years. They've all been pretty good!
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Hey guy,
Thought I would jump in here!
I have both a JVM and a 50w VM - and a Dimarzio YJM set.. Here is my take on all these.
The JVM is a fantastic amp, which you can get any sound out of. Try the Crunch red channel - beefy as shite, very touch sensitive and cleans up nicely with the volume control. The clean channel is really good too - from almost a sterile Marshally sound to a warm, slightly breaking up Fendery sound. The VM I find to be a sterile, one sound amp - I don't like it at all any more and I don't think it is what you are after. I would get a JVM, particularly if you plays a variety of stuff.
Mind you, why not get a YJM 100 - I may try and get one myself!
As for the pickups, the YJM set is not very powerful, quite expressive but lacing, IMHO, in enough grunt to get a good sound for me. I have just replaced them in my Warmoth with what I had in my parts bin - a Dimarzio Virtual Vintage bridge, old Fender middle and a Dimarzio Virtual Heavy Blues in the neck ..... Much much fruitier and allowing me to go from Hendrixy cleans to Eric Gales bluesy goodness and even harder Satriani, YJM stuff.
Just my opinion!
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for the price of a new YJM100 he could buy at least 2 used marshall half stacks