Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: witeter on June 24, 2012, 08:21:14 AM
-
Hi guys, im toying with the idea of getting an Eq of some sorts as i am intrigued by the tonal possibilities. As far as I am aware the difference between parametric and graphic is that parametric allows you to home in on a certain frequency of your choice while graphic has set frequencies from the offset. What would you guys recommend? im toying with the idea of the MXR 10 band eq (graphic)- are parametric eq pdelas any good? whatever i do get it HAS to be quiet. Cheers
-
Hey man,
It kinda depends on what you want the EQ for, but for guitars you're generally looking at graphic EQ's. They're easier to use onstage, easier to play around with and make for easy sound shaping.
Parameteric EQ's are more generally used to take out specific frequencies that are causing an issue with the overall sound. As I said though, it all depends on what you want to use it for.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
RD.
-
The both have their uses, though I think graphics are a bit easier to get into.
You can use a single band parametric as a mid boost for example.
-
^ What they say :)
Years ago, I used to use a little Graphic EQ pedal between guitar and a single channel valve amp to boost solos.
When I started fiddling with recording, I could not get my head around Parametric EQ at first. Now I swear by it, it's invaluable for mixing - and I use it on recorded guitar parts a lot, so after everything, including the mic that recorded it... For this purpose I'd much rather use Parametric.
But I think I'd still lean towards a Graphic on a guitar signal into an amp - I'd probably find it easier to use, and I'd be more likely to be boosting rather than reducing things.
If it was going in an effects loop on an amp, I don't know, I've never used an effects loop. I suspect I'd find a Parametric easier to think about in that situation, but that's because I'm use to using one after the "main tone-stuff" has happened.
-
Cheers guys thanks for the info.
Basically Id be using the eq to slightly shape my guitar tone for extra cut and body depending on the venue we'd be playing at; so im looking at it for live use. I wouldnt be using it as a solo boost.
I would also be looking at putting it in the loop as I have heard that graphic eqs work quite well there :-)
at the moment i am not sure i need a 10 band eq but i have heard that the mxr is very quiet, hence im leaning towards that :-)
-
I have not put any gain through it, but for 'so clean it's almost naked' sounds, I really enjoyed experimenting with my 10 band MXR. :D
It's only in it's box now, because I don't need it for home practice - and my current 'fave' amps ( for chord melody ) have onboard graphic E.Q. / notch filters. BUT , if gigging again, ( in a wider variety of styles / covers band , or playing through a borrowed amp ) - I feel the 10 band MXR would be a real 'secret weapon' to boost solos, reduce feedback , tune to the room - and generally act as a sonic 'Swiss Army Knife' . :)
I have had Parametic 'sweep' on a previous amp , some time ago - but of the two , prefer the flexibility of Graphic / notch filter type E.Q.s
-
But I think I'd still lean towards a Graphic on a guitar signal into an amp - I'd probably find it easier to use, and I'd be more likely to be boosting rather than reducing things.
I use my graphic pedal quite regularly as a booster and like it a lot. What I do is to leave things flat, and boost the gain. Then I can hear the sound and cut troublesome frequencies, like the extreme top end (especially on a strat) and bass (more humbucker guitars) and push the gain some more. With the right tweaking you can get a huge amount of boost without your signal turning to shite.
Sometimes though I do push the lower mids up a bit, since it sounds really nice with my amp and cabs.
Being experienced with parametrics in my studio work, I actually got myself a multi band parametric pedal to experiment with use as a booster, after my success with the graphic. What I found was that since the amp distortion was after the pedal the results were a bit more unpredicatable. Now, my graphic is modded, clear sounding and does have well chosen frequencies for the bands, but I still feel the parametric wasn't getting the results in that scenario. With persistence I might have been able to, but it wasn't so quick and straight forward as my system described above.
Now, we all know about Schenker and his wah mid-boosted solos - would be perfect for a single band parametric I think.
-
I read recently that in the studio when using a cheaper EQ, which would be most guitar pedals I imagine, it's better to cut frequencies and increase gain, rather than boosting - or if boosting then only a small amount. I hadn't thought about that before, but it does fit with my experiences of using an graphic as a booster also.
-
graphic is allot easier to use on the fly as its more visual but parametric is more powerful as its allot more precise . you can focus in on any frequency where graphic your stuck to the bands
I have a mxr 10 band and its a great pedal . not using it at the moment but its one of those pedal you never unload cause it'll come in handy again some day
If you want parametric and good quality the Empress is supposed to be the stand out. I have their compressor and trem on my board and they are both top notch quality
-
I've used a graphic as a gain/mid boost into the front of an amp and as a solo boost in the loop. Using it to fine tune frequencies for different venues is a new idea to me. I take it you're talking about gigs where you're not miked up ? If this is the case I imagine that what you're trying to achieve would be very difficult.
As you'll know from watching bands in a pub the sound of the guitar/amp will vary enormously according to where you're standing in the room. Personally I rely on my amp's eq and generally speaking I'll just tweak the treble control a little. Also, the wrong adjustments to a 10 band eq can seriously murder your sound so caution is advised. I hope you can make this work but for me it would just be another thing that could go wrong. Let us know how you get on.
-
There aren't too many good EQ pedals on the market, I feel. It really comes down to the MXR and a few other options. I, for my part, am only aware of one single parametric EQ (Artec).
I think the popularity of the MXR 10-band comes from the fact that it works like it should, and that there aren't a lot of alternatives really. Pros seems to use rackmount EQs instead.
-
Hey guys thanks again for all the info! its always interesting to read peoples opinions and views on stuff like this.
Richard- i think im just a bit of a tone nerd lol - im just enjoying so much in homing into my perfect tone that anything that can help me get there I really enjoy. My Peavey JSX has a very powerful active eq that works brilliantly but as with any eq its designed for certain frequencies and sometimes i wish i could add a tiny bit of low mids, cut some other frequencies,etc - i think i just like the idea of tweaking my tone slightly to get to something that is as perfect as i can get. I have heard so many good reports of using a graphic eq with my particular amp that its made me very curious :-)
-
I use the Empress ParaEQ live on my full rig and it's fantastic. It does take some getting your head around though. I have it always on with my preferred settings.
At rehearsals on my mini-board I have a modded Boss graphic - simple, cheap and easier to fiddle with on the fly.
I don' t think you'll go wrong with the MXR 10-band.
-
Yes I have heard very good things about the Empress Twinfan but its a bit too pricey for me im afraid, hence the mxr is a bit more appealing at the moment
-
The other parametric EQ I can think of is the Electro Harmonix Tube EQ, though only the mid band is parametric, the high and low are fixed frequency filters.
BYOC also sell a parametric EQ kit, though it seems quite pricey considering you have to do most of the work yourself.
-
Thanks man will look into that also :-)
-
I have a Boss GE7 and it is one pedal I'll always hang on to because it comes in very useful sometimes. Most recently I was using it in the loop for a solo boost when there was another guitarist in the band. Since we sacked the other guitar player (idiot junkie) I don't need it. I find the Boss to be very quiet although others have reported noise issues with them. In fact I bought it to replace an Ibanez graphic which was very noisy. Very cheap and, if noise is an issue, there are mods available for not much cash - Monte Allums springs to mind.
-
Cheers Richard- good to hear that the BOSS works great for you - i would be considering it more seriously if it wasnt for the fact some reviews say its 'noisy' - then again, thats very subjective. Glad the 'idiot junkie' 2nd guitarist saga was cleared up though!
-
I wonder if I could slightly hijack this thread a little as I have a related question on EQ's. I'll start another thread if you prefer.
I've never used an EQ before and I know nothing about the engineering of sound so you can take it as read that my knowledge is non-existent, however, when I bought my Digitech RP1000 I noticed it had a parametric EQ but I'm finding it a bit confusing. I understand that I can boost the highs, mids and lows but I'm also able to specify a particular frequency for each of these and that's where I'm lost. For a 24 fret guitar with a trem that plays both rhythm and lead, what should I set the frequencies to for bass, mid and high? I'm thinking that I'll start by adjust the EQ on the amp so the EQ on the RP1000 can be used to fine tune the tone and provide a boost in some songs. I realise I can change the frequencies on this system for every song we do but frankly, I don't want it that complicated. I just want to set the frequencies so they're the same on every patch and then just change the amount of boost on each one to suit. So, can anyone tell me what frequencies to use for bass, mid and high?
-
Anyone used the Source Audio Programmable EQ?
http://www.sourceaudio.net/products/utility_pedals/programmable_eq.php
Looks pretty funky.
-
No worries man-hijack away :-) id also be interested in the answers to your questions btw
Froglord-that looks very impressive! will research further-cheers!
-
In general for guitar effects graphic is the way to go. Parametrics are hands down better, but you cant get really good quality and control/flexibility out of conventional 'guitar effects' budgets. To put this in perspective, the reference standard parametric, designed by the guy that invented parametrics, is the GML8200, which is just 5 bands stereo, and costs about £4,500.
When using graphics just remember that the bands almost always overlap, use it for refinement of a sound that is as close as you can get it on the settings on the amp (i.e. less is more) and you should be fine.
I wonder if I could slightly hijack this thread a little as I have a related question on EQ's. I'll start another thread if you prefer.
I've never used an EQ before and I know nothing about the engineering of sound so you can take it as read that my knowledge is non-existent, however, when I bought my Digitech RP1000 I noticed it had a parametric EQ but I'm finding it a bit confusing. I understand that I can boost the highs, mids and lows but I'm also able to specify a particular frequency for each of these and that's where I'm lost. For a 24 fret guitar with a trem that plays both rhythm and lead, what should I set the frequencies to for bass, mid and high? I'm thinking that I'll start by adjust the EQ on the amp so the EQ on the RP1000 can be used to fine tune the tone and provide a boost in some songs. I realise I can change the frequencies on this system for every song we do but frankly, I don't want it that complicated. I just want to set the frequencies so they're the same on every patch and then just change the amount of boost on each one to suit. So, can anyone tell me what frequencies to use for bass, mid and high?
Guitar sound consists largely of overtones. The fundamental of the lowest note on a guitar depending on tuning will be between about 55 and 82hz, and is likely to be eliminated altogether to let the bass handle that. A common first thing to do is to cut out everything below 100Hz. Above that, you need to keep some low mids and mids for the fundamentals of higher notes, but by and large youre dealing with broadband sound from overtones that can be shaped to your taste without much musical impact. There is sometimes a need to EQ differently for different tunings, but thats generally in a recording and mixing setting, and would be overkill for live or playing for your own amusement.
Very, very, VERY roughly (and more than a little debatably) speaking, its something like this:
<100hz. Kill. Probably. Up to you, but its generally quite wise.
100-150: 'bass' (which is really the first overtones of the lowest notes)
150-400: meat and chunk, and quite a lot of note fundamentals.
400-1k: kinda honky, forward, cardboardy mids. Lots of this drives your sound forward but robs it of depth and thickness. Careful, still qutie a lot of note fundamentals in here.
1k-2k very forward, punchy, inyourface mids. Can also detract from apparent thickness and depth if overly present.
2k-4k: Main range for pick attack and definition. Very loud to the human hear. Many ultrascooped sounds have everything but this and 100-200hz or so ripped out of them.
4k-6k: bit and fizz.
6k+ here be dragons. 'Air' and some more fizz. Questionable how much of it is really there. Many people just rip it out completely, some dial more in for a more open sound. May invite more fizz due to overlapping with fizz range in the EQs band Qs (Q means width, basically, which is fixed for graphics and variable for parametrics). If in doubt just leave it alone.
-
Cheers man thats very informative, so for example- Marshall amps which have an emphasis on upper mids, does this mean that comes from the 2-4k range?
-
'Very, very, VERY roughly' is fine by me and a hell of a lot better than I'd manage on my own :D
At the moment the EQ is set to this:
Low = 100Hz so I'm guessing I can raise this up a bit; possibly to somewhere in the 125Hz - 250Hz area depending on taste.
Mids = 1.5kHz so it sounds like I might want to raise this one up too. At the moment I have the mids boosted a lot to cut through the mix but based on your description it sounds like I might want to back this off a bit.
Highs = 5kHz so on this one it sounds like I might want to reduce the frequency a bit to make sure there's no fizz.
The RP1000 also offers three types of band width from wide to narrow so I've got mine in the middle as it seemed the best thing to do if I didn't understand it!!! If that's wrong, please let me know.
Many thanks for your post MDV, it's VERY helpful.
-
^ This MDV man knows his stuff :D
And reading it, it turns out I seem to know some of it too! (It pretty much tallies with a crib sheet I use when mixing - but that deals with all instruments, and I'm looking/listening to sounds already recorded, not shaping a signal going into the front or the middle of an instrument - the amp).
The biggie that needs highlighting in MDV's post is nearer the start. If you're new-ish to this stuff, you go straight to the list of magic numbers at the end and start cutting and boosting like a bar-steward (thats what I did with my crib sheet :lol:).
The magic numbers are what you need, but you must keep this in mind ALL the time:
"When using graphics just remember that the bands almost always overlap, use it for refinement of a sound that is as close as you can get it on the settings on the amp (i.e. less is more) and you should be fine."
The underlined stuff applies to a parametric as well.
Slarti, the way I learned what differing bandwidths did was this - set everything flat (no cut or boost) then set the one you want to fiddle with to cut the maximum it can. Then set the band width as narrow as possible. Then play something and sweep the frequency slowly up and down to hear what the effect is. Then pick a frequency and vary the bandwidth to see what that does. Then try it with boosting. Just use this exercise to train your ears to see what effect it all has.
When you get a feel for it, you'll know where and how wide you want it.
You also have to learn how much – which I guess is behind the bit of MDV's I quoted.
On mixing, some folks have a beginners rule "DON'T CUT OR BOOST ANYTHING BY MORE THAN 3DB – after a few mixes you can get more adventurous" – I followed this rigorously for a while, and it really does help.
When I you start you think "I'll have some more low mids" or what ever. You put them in and you can't hear them, so you put in a bit more for luck – that way leads to "naff" pretty quick. Oh, finally, if you have a bypass switch, when you think you're set, press the bypass switch. You'll be surprised at how often the original sounds better :lol:. Don't give up, set it all back to zero and try again!
-
Quite so, Andy, quite so.
Over-EQing, especially with narrow bands (as per many graphics), can just make things sound outright weird. And you can lead yourself up the garden path very easily if you dont stop and wash your ears out (silence or references). 3 bands on an amp is all very nice and well, but 10 bands of +/-15db or the infinite flexibility of a parametric...well, with great power comes....:lol:
Listen, experiment, listen more, experiment more, and keep listening. Its not something theres a silver bullet for (if only), its something that comes with experience. And listening.
-
Great info MDV thanks for the extra advice and explanations.
I dont know if im alone in saying this - but is this the best forum on the net? i think so!
-
Anyone used the Source Audio Programmable EQ?
http://www.sourceaudio.net/products/utility_pedals/programmable_eq.php
Looks pretty funky.
I've been spying one of those for a while - its in the works to buy one.
-
I use the Empress ParaEQ live on my full rig and it's fantastic. It does take some getting your head around though. I have it always on with my preferred settings.
At rehearsals on my mini-board I have a modded Boss graphic - simple, cheap and easier to fiddle with on the fly.
I don' t think you'll go wrong with the MXR 10-band.
How is the Empress? I've been looking into one for a while, the 2 button one with the boost.
-
i have the old version of the empress para eq and i think its great
the para eq really lets you emphasize the frequencies you like. i wouldn't use a graphical anymore now. or for really basic tone shaping things.