Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: sdgiffin on July 29, 2012, 07:12:37 PM
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Hey guys,
I know there are a lot of knowledgable cats on this forum so I thought I'd bring my PRS woes here.
I have a PRS Custom 24 Artist series that is giving one bitch of a time in the bridge position in the mid to upper midrange. It's honky, nasally and sometime it rides on icepicky. Let me give you a background on my signal path...
I play old school hard rock with a modern twist and have an '81 JCM 800 2203 with a Vader 4x12 cabinet which has flat response Eminence speakers in it. I set the amp to a plexi-like crunch and use an Xotic BB Preamp to get more when I need it. A great example of my tone recorded can be heard in the song Drown the Sound in the audio player at our website... http://fmqmusic.com/ (http://fmqmusic.com/) The rhythms were with my Les Paul and the solo was with the PRS w/ the stock pups.
Now, I have swapped out the stock Vintage Bass and HFS pups for a couple of Dimarzios. I put a 36th Anniversary in the neck (which actually sounds great and splits really well, I'm quite happy with it) and put an Andy Timmons AT-1 in the bridge. I went with the AT-1 because my initial problem with the HFS was how sterile and sharp it was with a pretty unmusical low end. It just became kind of farty. I went for a hot PAF style bridge pup because I like the tonal quality of the classic hum$%&#ers but want need a little more to drive the amp naturally. I chose the AT-1 because of its rolled of highs and pronounced low and (what I thought was) low mids. Although this is a better pickup than the HFS, I'm still not 100% happy. When I installed the Dimarzios, the 36th Ann. brought a smile to my face immediately while the AT-1 didn't initially but I thought I'd stick it out and try it in a couple of live scenarios. I'm just not jiving with it. I know that Custom 24s in particular are known as honky guitars as they are akin to SGs and have the thick maple top adding to the high end snap and that the guitar naturally has these frequencies, so I need to balance them out. The guitar rings out beautifully acoustically with a ton of clarity and a nice bottom, but nothing like my Les Paul.
So, I need some suggestions from people who have had experience with the downfalls of a honky PRS or that just generally know BKP pickups like the back of their hand like Twinfan & Nolly. The more info/help the better!
Things I'm looking for but am willing to overlook if it will help my situation...
- A hot vintage to slightly modern voicing
- I prefer the feel and response of Alnico magnets to Ceramic
- A fat but tight low end to counter the PRS' thin body and add to the lack of low bottom in the JCM800
Sorry for the novel! I appreciate everyone's time and input.
Thanks!
Scott
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I have the same guitar and same honky dislike. The last time i posted a thread on here for my CU24, everyone advised on the Cold Sweats. That honky midrange is a natural sound from the CU24. I also have a CU22, which is more balanced than the 24 fret model. When i plugged it into my Triaxis last, i set the Bass at 0, Mid at 0 and Treble at 5.5. That balanced the CU24 out, which is ridiculous when you think about it. Now i am thinking of selling it, as i have a 24 Ibanez and a PRS CU22 anyway.
Sorry, i can't give you much help, but understand your issue, the guys on this forum all suggested the Cold Sweats to cancel out the honky midrange that ruins the tone for me and you in the PRS CU24.
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I have the same guitar and same honky dislike. The last time i posted a thread on here for my CU24, everyone advised on the Cold Sweats. That honky midrange is a natural sound from the CU24. I also have a CU22, which is more balanced than the 24 fret model. When i plugged it into my Triaxis last, i set the Bass at 0, Mid at 0 and Treble at 5.5. That balanced the CU24 out, which is ridiculous when you think about it. Now i am thinking of selling it, as i have a 24 Ibanez and a PRS CU22 anyway.
Sorry, i can't give you much help, but understand your issue, the guys on this forum all suggested the Cold Sweats to cancel out the honky midrange that ruins the tone for me and you in the PRS CU24.
That was the pickup I was leaning towards but didn't want to mention in the original post. I wanted to see what others came up with. Although it is a ceramic magnet, I think to would probably be the best suited to counter the nasally honk of this guitar. In the last hour I just swapped the Timmons out for a Dimarzio 36th anniversary bridge and that's almost worse. It's almost single coil/P90-ish with a pronounced snap in the midrange. I do enjoy the clarity in the top end that was lost with the Timmons because of the rolled off highs. I think the Cold Sweat might be my answer or at least a step in the right direction.
Thanks for your input!
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Hmm, a tricky one. My favourite pickups that I've had in PRS guitars (although not Cu24s) have been Black Dogs and Holydivers. The BD would be a closer balance to the DiMarzio, the HD would give more of a contrast. Listening to the track you mention, I think a Cold Sweat will be a bit brighter and sharper than you'd like. I think the HolyDiver would be a good choice.
One thing to note is that the BB Preamp is very mid-focussed and "honky". I think you'll find it's not helping with your tone issue...
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The HFS is ceramic, so the Cold Sweat would keep the hot output which i would prefer, but to nullify that mid range honk is the key. Although i haven't tried the Cold Sweat, that is the forum advice. I suppose, a mail to BKP would be the best thing to do. Just not sure if i want to pump £200 plus on a guitar that i am thinking about selling, but i would love to know if the CS is the answer.
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Hmm, a tricky one. My favourite pickups that I've had in PRS guitars (although not Cu24s) have been Black Dogs and Holydivers. The BD would be a closer balance to the DiMarzio, the HD would give more of a contrast. Listening to the track you mention, I think a Cold Sweat will be a bit brighter and sharper than you'd like. I think the HolyDiver would be a good choice.
One thing to note is that the BB Preamp is very mid-focussed and "honky". I think you'll find it's not helping with your tone issue...
The PRS CU24 is naturally honky in the mids, even when unplugged. It sounds completely different than the CU22, which is more balanced.
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The really great thing about the Cold Sweat set, in my opinion, is the contrast between the neck and bridge models - makes them a good choice for 24 fret guitars (or SGs, where the pickups are close together)
But in this case you're not changing the neck pickup and I tend to agree with Twinfan, the CS bridge might be a bit brighter than you'd like. That said, it is balanced in the mids which might help with the honkiness you've described!
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On my CU24, i would rather have a bit of brightness than that horrible honky tone.
What other scooped BKP would cancel the PRS honky mids a bit?
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On my CU24, i would rather have a bit of brightness than that horrible honky tone.
What other scooped BKP would cancel the PRS honky mids a bit?
Not much to be honest... In my opinion the cold sweat is a perfect match for a CU24.
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On my CU24, i would rather have a bit of brightness than that horrible honky tone.
What other scooped BKP would cancel the PRS honky mids a bit?
Hijacking my thread eh? haha
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On my CU24, i would rather have a bit of brightness than that horrible honky tone.
What other scooped BKP would cancel the PRS honky mids a bit?
Hijacking my thread eh? haha
Sorry dude......not hijacking, just joining forces. 8)
I had my own thread on this and CS was the answer from everyone. A scooped pickup seems the way to go.
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On my CU24, i would rather have a bit of brightness than that horrible honky tone.
What other scooped BKP would cancel the PRS honky mids a bit?
Hijacking my thread eh? haha
Sorry dude......not hijacking, just joining forces. 8)
I had my own thread on this and CS was the answer from everyone. A scooped pickup seems the way to go.
Ha! I was just messing around. Good to know that others are having the same problem and that I'm hopefully not dealing with a lemon. If I was playing high gain death metal, it'd be a different story, but because the tones are more overdriven and organic, shite frequencies are extremely apparent.
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One man's honky is another's mid-range punch. I personally love the mids in a PRS guitar as it helps me really punch in a band context, and it gets an amp singing 8)
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One man's honky is another's mid-range punch. I personally love the mids in a PRS guitar as it helps me really punch in a band context, and it gets an amp singing 8)
That honk is only in the CU24 model. The CU22 is nicely balanced compared to it. Punchy mids=honky mids, i am not sure about that. Punchy mids are the Black Dog to me.
But sdgiffin, you haven't got a lemon as i share your pain. Rolling the Bass and Mids of my amp to zero is the only useable tone i can get from my CU24. Pickups with a tighter bass than the HFS and slighly scooped seem to be the ticket. Not sure if i will pull the trigger on that kind of money for it though. :D
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I agree that the HFS is a honky sounding pickup - at least it was in my PRS Custom. I have a Holydiver bridge and a Cold Sweat neck in it. While the HD bridge still resembles the original tone it took out enough of the nasalness to really get this guitar going again.
A good alternative would be the Abraxas bridge, even though I am not sure how that would compare to the DiMarzio AT-1 - never played one of those.
Cheers Stephan
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I'd have thought the Cold Sweat bridge would be a bit bright myself but I can see how it could work. Tim's suggestion to me was Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck and despite it not being scooped, I think you'd like it as to me, your description does sound like an awful lot of what the Holydiver is really good at. I'd also point out that it's nothing like as middy as the EQ suggests. I used to have one in a middy Jackson and it worked great. The other thought if you wanted something more scooped is a Miracle Man. Until I tried one of these myself I never would have suggested it but it has a lot of the features of the Holydiver in a slightly more aggressive and scooped format.
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That honk is only in the CU24 model. The CU22 is nicely balanced compared to it.
I disagree, assuming we're taking pickups out of the equation as the OP has swapped them out.
They're almost identical guitars construction-wise, and with the same bridge pickup and neck profile they'd sound pretty much equal. No two wood blanks are ever the same though, so you have to take each guitar on its own merits.
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my first thought was a calibrated abraxas set
my other thoughts were the same :lol:
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That honk is only in the CU24 model. The CU22 is nicely balanced compared to it.
I disagree, assuming we're taking pickups out of the equation as the OP has swapped them out.
They're almost identical guitars construction-wise, and with the same bridge pickup and neck profile they'd sound pretty much equal. No two wood blanks are ever the same though, so you have to take each guitar on its own merits.
Almost identical, but those 2 extra frets change the natural tone of the CU24. I have both a CU22 and CU24 and they are definately different sounding. My previous CU24 that i sold a few years ago, has the same honky tone that does not exist in the CU22. I guarantee that if you put the exact same pickups in the 22 and 24 fret models, they would not sound alike.
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That honk is only in the CU24 model. The CU22 is nicely balanced compared to it.
I disagree, assuming we're taking pickups out of the equation as the OP has swapped them out.
They're almost identical guitars construction-wise, and with the same bridge pickup and neck profile they'd sound pretty much equal. No two wood blanks are ever the same though, so you have to take each guitar on its own merits.
Almost identical, but those 2 extra frets change the natural tone of the CU24. I have both a CU22 and CU24 and they are definately different sounding. My previous CU24 that i sold a few years ago, has the same honky tone that does not exist in the CU22. I guarantee that if you put the exact same pickups in the 22 and 24 fret models, they would not sound alike.
I'll have too edge over to twinfans side here. Firstly, he is by far the most knowledgable about PRS guitars on the forum. Secondly, the extra frets will only slightly change the you one of the neck pickup and that's it.
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I only have 22-fret PRS guitars, but I'm prepared to believe there's a subtle difference in tone between the 22-fret and 24-fret Customs.
After all, the two extra frets don't extend further into the body, instead there's a greater length of the neck free of the body and the bridge is moved a little to accommodate. That's going to have some effect on the acoustics.
Also, do both guitars have the same kind of bridge, or is one a tremolo and one a hardtail?
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neck tone must be different, but I doubt the bridge tone change is any more noticeable than the usual differences between guitars of the same model
the HFS is completely different from the dragon II treble, and that's what really makes the big difference
the HFS is like an overwound dimarzio super distortion or something, so it's powerful and nasal, while the dragon II sounds like a really bright version of the gibson 498t, maybe a bit less hot and compressed
they would make the same guitar sound completely different
rough comparison with the HFS x duncan JB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Savq2wF8GHo
there are other clips comparing them with the aftermath as well
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I have a CU24 (albeit only an SE version) and I can't say I've found it to be overly honky at all, though I do tend to like mid-range punch in a guitar. Perhaps I'm a complete philistine but I can't believe that the difference between the CU22 and CU24 is all that much given how similar they are in construction, though I only have the CU24 myself.
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I only have 22-fret PRS guitars, but I'm prepared to believe there's a subtle difference in tone between the 22-fret and 24-fret Customs.
After all, the two extra frets don't extend further into the body, instead there's a greater length of the neck free of the body and the bridge is moved a little to accommodate. That's going to have some effect on the acoustics.
neck tone must be different, but I doubt the bridge tone change is any more noticeable than the usual differences between guitars of the same model
I agree with both of you :)
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6047/prscustom22vs24md3.gif)
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Even two guitars of the same PRS model (or any other maker for that matter) can sound different. When I picked my PRS Custom they had two in the shop. One was harsh while the other (the one I bought) was singing more and had far more substance in the upper registers.
At least in my guitar most of the honk was the HFS pickup. The Dragon II sounds nothing like it - to me that one sounds thin and shrill.
And I also agree that honky mids is not the same as punchy mids, the difference being that punchy mids do not sound nasal.
To summarize there are many good options for you:
- Holydiver bridge and Emerald or Cold Sweat neck
- Cold Sweat set or Cold Sweat bridge and Abraxas neck
- Abraxas set
- Miracle Man bridge and Cold Sweat neck
Except for the Emerald neck I have or had all the combinations listed at one time.
Cheers Stephan
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Even two guitars of the same PRS model (or any other maker for that matter) can sound different. When I picked my PRS Custom they had two in the shop. One was harsh while the other (the one I bought) was singing more and had far more substance in the upper registers.
At least in my guitar most of the honk was the HFS pickup. The Dragon II sounds nothing like it - to me that one sounds thin and shrill.
And I also agree that honky mids is not the same as punchy mids, the difference being that punchy mids do not sound nasal.
Finally, someone who had the same view as me and the OP. :D The Dragon II was thin to me in my CU22 so i swapped it with the VHII set. The HFS really show up the honky mids, so maybe the Holy Diver or Cold Sweats.
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the diver is not honky at all, but still on the same voicing ballpark of the HFS
maybe something brighter, like a rebel yell or emerald
but I'd still pick the abraxas
maybe a nailbomb if I really wanted a FAT bottom end
the cold sweat sounds amazing in PR asses, but I don't think that's what he's looking for
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the diver is not honky at all, but still on the same voicing ballpark of the HFS
maybe something brighter, like a rebel yell or emerald
but I'd still pick the abraxas
maybe a nailbomb if I really wanted a FAT bottom end
the cold sweat sounds amazing in PR asses, but I don't think that's what he's looking for
I'm interested in the Cold Sweat, what properties are in it that you think wouldn't be up my alley? I would like a fat bottom end and have enjoyed Nailbombs before, could be a good option as well.
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well, being an underwound c-bomb, the cold sweat has a paf-reminiscent clear sounding scooped midrange, but it's not round sounding by any means, the top is very bright and focused and the upper mid crunch has a very strong ceramic feel
it cleans up really really well for its amount of output, and better than any ceramic humbucker I've ever heard, but it's not an alnico-like smooth sounding pickup
reminds me of Ty Tabor (King's X) and Dimebag Darrell, specially on lead tones and pinch harmonics, which are quite unique
I had a '77 50w JMP 2204 and the sweat sounded quite sharp and bright through that amp
the alnico nailbomb was definitely a much better match for that particular amp
it was a hair hotter, but smoother, thicker and more balanced
had both in a '73 les paul custom, not a PRS, though
the cold sweat sounded amazing in my friends mccarty, but the cutting edge feel was even more pronounced
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well, being an underwound c-bomb, the cold sweat has a paf-reminiscent clear sounding scooped midrange, but it's not round sounding by any means, the top is very bright and focused and the upper mid crunch has very ceramic feel
it cleans up really really well for its amount of output, and better than any ceramic humbucker I've ever heard, but it's not an alnico-like smooth sounding pickup
reminds me of Ty Tabor (King's X) and Dimebag Darrell, specially on lead tones and pinch harmonics, which are quite unique
I had a '77 50w JMP 2204 and the sweat sounded quite sharp and bright through that amp
the alnico nailbomb was definitely a much better match for that particular amp
it was a hair hotter, but smoother, thicker and more balanced
had both in a '73 les paul custom, not a PRS, though
the cold sweat sounded amazing in my friends mccarty, but the cutting edge feel was even more pronounced
Thanks for the details! The extra top end on the Sweat may be a bit much. A friend has a set of nailbombs in his Cu24 that I may buy from him when he swaps. Gotta throw them in the guitar first, but they seem to be a good, balanced option. One thing I do find that the Cu24 lacks is some low end, so having that fatness in the bottom would be a welcomed attribute.
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If you do throw the Nailbombs in, let us know how they sound compared to the HFS. :)
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Will do!